Trump Saves Lives by Killing EPA Regulations

[Cellblock2429]

Trump Saves Lives by Killing EPA Regulations

Yeah, coal will help us live longer.

It sure as hell does. Cheap electricty refrigerates our food and makes it possible to pay for food, health insurance and prescription drugs.

Do you thnk more people die when everything is expensive or when everything is cheap?

More people die from pollution than lack of cheap electricity.

Wrong. Produce a single death certificate that says the person died from pollution.

You will not find pollution as cause of death but respiratory failure.

/—-/ and how is that caused by pollution and not other factors? If true you have clusters of people dying of respiratory problems not isolated cases.

 

[bripat9643]

Yeah, coal will help us live longer.

It sure as hell does. Cheap electricty refrigerates our food and makes it possible to pay for food, health insurance and prescription drugs.

Do you thnk more people die when everything is expensive or when everything is cheap?

More people die from pollution than lack of cheap electricity.

Wrong. Produce a single death certificate that says the person died from pollution.

You will not find pollution as cause of death but respiratory failure.

/—-/ and how is that caused by pollution and not other factors? If true you have clusters of people dying of respiratory problems not isolated cases.

If you look at a map of emmissions from coal fired power plants and a map showing where people lived when they died of respitory failure, you'll note there is absolutely no correlation.

 

[bripat9643]

Yeah, coal will help us live longer.

It sure as hell does. Cheap electricty refrigerates our food and makes it possible to pay for food, health insurance and prescription drugs.

Do you thnk more people die when everything is expensive or when everything is cheap?

Why don't you throw your computer out and send your posts by snail mail to the USMB, that's an accurate equivalency to your stupid argument.
This is why progressives call idiots like you regressives. You want to go back 200 years in energy production instead of moving forward into solar and wind.
You really think it's cheaper to mine coal than to harvest the wind and the sunlight?

Converting to solar and wind is not moving forward. Windmills have been around for at least 3000 years.

You're posting slogans rather than objective facts and logic.

Coal is far cheaper than wind energy. The latter requires 100% backup from a reliable source of energy like fossil fuels, so how can it be cheaper?

My solar power is totally reliable with a wall battery for night and dark day power. No fossil fuel involved.

And how much of your system was paid for by government subsidies and tax credits?

Notice: no response.

 

[WaitingFor2020]

This is what it's all about. The Koch brothers could care less about anybody's lives except their own. Just like Trump. They've been working on dismantling the EPA for years.

New EPA head Scott Pruitt's emails reveal close ties with fossil fuel ...
News, sport and opinion from the Guardian's US edition | The Guardian › Environment › US Environmental Protection Agency
Feb 22, 2017 - Scott Pruitt's emails also show a cosy relationship with Alec and lobby groups sponsored by the Koch brothers. Photograph: Susan Walsh/AP.
Koch Brothers Behind Push To Dismantle EPA | DeSmogBlog
Koch Brothers Behind Push To Dismantle EPA
Nov 11, 2011 - During last week's Americans For Prosperity (AFP) event, a common theme kept creeping into the speakers' presentations: Dismantle the EPA.
Missing: deregulation
The Koch Brothers' Covert Operations | The New Yorker
The Koch Brothers' Covert Ops
Aug 30, 2010 - Jane Mayer on Charles and David Koch, the billionairebrothers who pour ... liberal blog ThinkProgress, has called the Kochs “the billionaires behind the hate. .... “It's ground zero for deregulation policy in Washington,” Rob Stein, the ... In 1997, for instance, the E.P.A. moved to reduce surface ozone, a form ...
Koch Pledge Tied to Congressional Climate Inaction | The New Yorker
https://www.newyorker.com/news/.../koch-pledge-tied-to-congressional-climate-inacti...
Jun 30, 2013 - Koch Industries, according to Environmental Protection Agency ... Hill in favor of deregulation,” of the environment and energy sector, the study says. ... Paris Climate Agreement, the Koch Brothers' Campaign Becomes Overt.

ROFL! Noooooooo, regulations don't have a downside! They don't have a cost! It's those evil Koch brothers who are trying to fool everyone.

It's so telling that you won't even address the subject of the OP. You reflixively employ the classic Alinsky tactic.

Oh, I left out the other corporation that is greasing Pruitt's wheels: Devon Energy.
Pruitt would copy and paste their letters as his own and pass them on to initiate law suits.

How Rollbacks at Scott Pruitt's E.P.A. Are a Boon to Oil and Gas - The ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/business/energy.../devon-energy.html
May 20, 2017 - Devon Energy's Beaver Creek gas plant outside Riverton, Wyo. .... Devon brought on a team of politically connected lobbyists, including ...
In 2011, Scott Pruitt received a letter from Devon Energy, put his ...
In 2011, Scott Pruitt got a letter from an oil company, put his letterhead on it, and sent it to the EPA...
Jan 18, 2017 - So closely, in fact, that when Devon Energy, one of Oklahoma's biggest oil and ... In 2011, Scott Pruitt got a letter from an oil company, put his ...
Emails reveal EPA chief Pruitt's work with oil, gas companies | Fox News
www.foxnews.com/.../emails-reveal-epa-chief-pruitts-work-with-oil-gas-companies.html
Feb 22, 2017 - Other emails highlight the apparently close relationship Pruitthad with Devon Energy. The company helped Pruitt draft language in a letter he ...

^^^^^ Even Fox Noise owns it. Better wake the fuck up, BritTwit.

 

[Hossfly]

I am curious to know how many factories powered by wind and solar are producing windmills and solar panels. Are any of those renewable energy factories producing railroad engines, ships, automobiles and other heavy industry? Any of you tree huggers know?

 

[bripat9643]

This is what it's all about. The Koch brothers could care less about anybody's lives except their own. Just like Trump. They've been working on dismantling the EPA for years.

New EPA head Scott Pruitt's emails reveal close ties with fossil fuel ...
News, sport and opinion from the Guardian's US edition | The Guardian › Environment › US Environmental Protection Agency
Feb 22, 2017 - Scott Pruitt's emails also show a cosy relationship with Alec and lobby groups sponsored by the Koch brothers. Photograph: Susan Walsh/AP.
Koch Brothers Behind Push To Dismantle EPA | DeSmogBlog
Koch Brothers Behind Push To Dismantle EPA
Nov 11, 2011 - During last week's Americans For Prosperity (AFP) event, a common theme kept creeping into the speakers' presentations: Dismantle the EPA.
Missing: deregulation
The Koch Brothers' Covert Operations | The New Yorker
The Koch Brothers' Covert Ops
Aug 30, 2010 - Jane Mayer on Charles and David Koch, the billionairebrothers who pour ... liberal blog ThinkProgress, has called the Kochs “the billionaires behind the hate. .... “It's ground zero for deregulation policy in Washington,” Rob Stein, the ... In 1997, for instance, the E.P.A. moved to reduce surface ozone, a form ...
Koch Pledge Tied to Congressional Climate Inaction | The New Yorker
https://www.newyorker.com/news/.../koch-pledge-tied-to-congressional-climate-inacti...
Jun 30, 2013 - Koch Industries, according to Environmental Protection Agency ... Hill in favor of deregulation,” of the environment and energy sector, the study says. ... Paris Climate Agreement, the Koch Brothers' Campaign Becomes Overt.

ROFL! Noooooooo, regulations don't have a downside! They don't have a cost! It's those evil Koch brothers who are trying to fool everyone.

It's so telling that you won't even address the subject of the OP. You reflixively employ the classic Alinsky tactic.

Oh, I left out the other corporation that is greasing Pruitt's wheels: Devon Energy.
Pruitt would copy and paste their letters as his own and pass them on to initiate law suits.

How Rollbacks at Scott Pruitt's E.P.A. Are a Boon to Oil and Gas - The ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/business/energy.../devon-energy.html
May 20, 2017 - Devon Energy's Beaver Creek gas plant outside Riverton, Wyo. .... Devon brought on a team of politically connected lobbyists, including ...
In 2011, Scott Pruitt received a letter from Devon Energy, put his ...
In 2011, Scott Pruitt got a letter from an oil company, put his letterhead on it, and sent it to the EPA...
Jan 18, 2017 - So closely, in fact, that when Devon Energy, one of Oklahoma's biggest oil and ... In 2011, Scott Pruitt got a letter from an oil company, put his ...
Emails reveal EPA chief Pruitt's work with oil, gas companies | Fox News
www.foxnews.com/.../emails-reveal-epa-chief-pruitts-work-with-oil-gas-companies.html
Feb 22, 2017 - Other emails highlight the apparently close relationship Pruitthad with Devon Energy. The company helped Pruitt draft language in a letter he ...

^^^^^ Even Fox Noise owns it. Better wake the fuck up, BritTwit.

I hope EPA rollbacks are a boon to gas and oil. That's precisely the intent: cheap oil and cheap gas. Only dumbfucks believe expensive oil and gas are a good thing.

 

[WaitingFor2020]

Trump Saves Lives by Killing EPA Regulations

Yeah, coal will help us live longer.

It sure as hell does. Cheap electricty refrigerates our food and makes it possible to pay for food, health insurance and prescription drugs.

Do you thnk more people die when everything is expensive or when everything is cheap?

Why don't you throw your computer out and send your posts by snail mail to the USMB, that's an accurate equivalency to your stupid argument.
This is why progressives call idiots like you regressives. You want to go back 200 years in energy production instead of moving forward into solar and wind.
You really think it's cheaper to mine coal than to harvest the wind and the sunlight?

Converting to solar and wind is not moving forward. Windmills have been around for at least 3000 years.

You're posting slogans rather than objective facts and logic.

Coal is far cheaper than wind energy. The latter requires 100% backup from a reliable source of energy like fossil fuels, so how can it be cheaper?

My solar power is totally reliable with a wall battery for night and dark day power. No fossil fuel involved.

Thanks for all your hard, data-driven proof.
Even the state of Texas recognizes the fossil fuel industry is dying.

Solar energy is ready to expand dramatically in Texas - Houston ...
www.houstonchronicle.com/.../Solar-energy-is-ready-to-expand-dramatically-in-6543...
Oct 1, 2015 - Texas has all the right conditions for solar: plenty of sun, growing demand and high wholesale electricity prices on hot August afternoons, ...
Shining Cities 2017 | Environment Texas
Shining Cities 2017
Apr 4, 2017 - Shining Cities 2017. How Smart Local Policies are Expanding Solar Power in America. Released by: Environment Texas Research and Policy ...
San Antonio, Austin support 85 percent of Texas solar energy ...
https://environmenttexas.org/.../san-antonio-austin-support-85-percent-texas-solar-ene...
Feb 14, 2013 - San Antonio, Austin support 85 percent of Texas solar energyinstallations. Legislature considering bills to help expand solar to rest of state.

 

[bripat9643]

I am curious to know how many factories powered by wind and solar are producing windmills and solar panels. Are any of those renewable energy factories producing railroad engines, ships, automobiles and other heavy industry? Any of you tree huggers know?

solar panels are made with aluminum, which requires massive amounts of electric power to refine.

 

[WaitingFor2020]

This is what it's all about. The Koch brothers could care less about anybody's lives except their own. Just like Trump. They've been working on dismantling the EPA for years.

New EPA head Scott Pruitt's emails reveal close ties with fossil fuel ...
News, sport and opinion from the Guardian's US edition | The Guardian › Environment › US Environmental Protection Agency
Feb 22, 2017 - Scott Pruitt's emails also show a cosy relationship with Alec and lobby groups sponsored by the Koch brothers. Photograph: Susan Walsh/AP.
Koch Brothers Behind Push To Dismantle EPA | DeSmogBlog
Koch Brothers Behind Push To Dismantle EPA
Nov 11, 2011 - During last week's Americans For Prosperity (AFP) event, a common theme kept creeping into the speakers' presentations: Dismantle the EPA.
Missing: deregulation
The Koch Brothers' Covert Operations | The New Yorker
The Koch Brothers' Covert Ops
Aug 30, 2010 - Jane Mayer on Charles and David Koch, the billionairebrothers who pour ... liberal blog ThinkProgress, has called the Kochs “the billionaires behind the hate. .... “It's ground zero for deregulation policy in Washington,” Rob Stein, the ... In 1997, for instance, the E.P.A. moved to reduce surface ozone, a form ...
Koch Pledge Tied to Congressional Climate Inaction | The New Yorker
https://www.newyorker.com/news/.../koch-pledge-tied-to-congressional-climate-inacti...
Jun 30, 2013 - Koch Industries, according to Environmental Protection Agency ... Hill in favor of deregulation,” of the environment and energy sector, the study says. ... Paris Climate Agreement, the Koch Brothers' Campaign Becomes Overt.

ROFL! Noooooooo, regulations don't have a downside! They don't have a cost! It's those evil Koch brothers who are trying to fool everyone.

It's so telling that you won't even address the subject of the OP. You reflixively employ the classic Alinsky tactic.

Oh, I left out the other corporation that is greasing Pruitt's wheels: Devon Energy.
Pruitt would copy and paste their letters as his own and pass them on to initiate law suits.

How Rollbacks at Scott Pruitt's E.P.A. Are a Boon to Oil and Gas - The ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/business/energy.../devon-energy.html
May 20, 2017 - Devon Energy's Beaver Creek gas plant outside Riverton, Wyo. .... Devon brought on a team of politically connected lobbyists, including ...
In 2011, Scott Pruitt received a letter from Devon Energy, put his ...
In 2011, Scott Pruitt got a letter from an oil company, put his letterhead on it, and sent it to the EPA...
Jan 18, 2017 - So closely, in fact, that when Devon Energy, one of Oklahoma's biggest oil and ... In 2011, Scott Pruitt got a letter from an oil company, put his ...
Emails reveal EPA chief Pruitt's work with oil, gas companies | Fox News
www.foxnews.com/.../emails-reveal-epa-chief-pruitts-work-with-oil-gas-companies.html
Feb 22, 2017 - Other emails highlight the apparently close relationship Pruitthad with Devon Energy. The company helped Pruitt draft language in a letter he ...

^^^^^ Even Fox Noise owns it. Better wake the fuck up, BritTwit.

I hope EPA rollbacks are a boon to gas and oil. That's precisely the intent: cheap oil and cheap gas. Only dumbfucks believe expensive oil and gas are a good thing.

They don't want to roll it back to create cheaper prices, dumbass. They want to roll the regulations back so they can drill anywhere they want and get even wealthier at the expense of everyone else, their health and property.

You go fucking live in Oklahoma, Pruitt's state. Check out how many earthquakes they've had in the last 5 years from injecting waste water from fracking back down into the earth. That's what deregulation of the oil and gas industry will get you.

Earthquakes in Oklahoma
Earthquakes in Oklahoma
We know that Oklahoma experienced 623 magnitude 3+ earthquakes in2016, 903 in 2015, 579 in 2014 and 109 in 2013. This rise in seismic events has the ...
‎About Us | Earthquakes in ... · ‎Fracking causes earthquakes · ‎Earthquake Map
You've visited this page 2 times. Last visit: 12/7/16
Today's Earthquakes in Oklahoma, United States - Earthquake Track
Today's Earthquakes in Oklahoma, United States
Oklahoma, United States has had: (M1.5 or greater). 2 earthquakes in the past 24 hours; 19 earthquakes in the past 7 days; 71 earthquakes in the past 30 days ...
‎Kansas · ‎Biggest Quakes · ‎3+ mag · ‎4+ mag
Why Oklahoma Can't Turn Off Its Earthquakes - Bloomberg
https://www.bloomberg.com/.../2016-11.../why-oklahoma-can-t-turn-off-its-earthqua...
Nov 7, 2016 - November 7, 2016, 4:23 PM PST November 8, 2016, 8:43 AM PST. Sunday ... Last year, Oklahoma experienced more than 1,000earthquakes ...

 

[WaitingFor2020]

I am curious to know how many factories powered by wind and solar are producing windmills and solar panels. Are any of those renewable energy factories producing railroad engines, ships, automobiles and other heavy industry? Any of you tree huggers know?

solar panels are made with aluminum, which requires massive amounts of electric power to refine.

And how often to they have to be replaced? How long does one ton of coal last before it has to be replaced?
I lived in the NE for years and had to deal with filthy, dirty grimy heating oil. Now natural gas has replaced it and it's cleaner and cheaper.
You should educate yourself on these things before you pontificate so stupidly.

 

[bripat9643]

This is what it's all about. The Koch brothers could care less about anybody's lives except their own. Just like Trump. They've been working on dismantling the EPA for years.

New EPA head Scott Pruitt's emails reveal close ties with fossil fuel ...
News, sport and opinion from the Guardian's US edition | The Guardian › Environment › US Environmental Protection Agency
Feb 22, 2017 - Scott Pruitt's emails also show a cosy relationship with Alec and lobby groups sponsored by the Koch brothers. Photograph: Susan Walsh/AP.
Koch Brothers Behind Push To Dismantle EPA | DeSmogBlog
Koch Brothers Behind Push To Dismantle EPA
Nov 11, 2011 - During last week's Americans For Prosperity (AFP) event, a common theme kept creeping into the speakers' presentations: Dismantle the EPA.
Missing: deregulation
The Koch Brothers' Covert Operations | The New Yorker
The Koch Brothers' Covert Ops
Aug 30, 2010 - Jane Mayer on Charles and David Koch, the billionairebrothers who pour ... liberal blog ThinkProgress, has called the Kochs “the billionaires behind the hate. .... “It's ground zero for deregulation policy in Washington,” Rob Stein, the ... In 1997, for instance, the E.P.A. moved to reduce surface ozone, a form ...
Koch Pledge Tied to Congressional Climate Inaction | The New Yorker
https://www.newyorker.com/news/.../koch-pledge-tied-to-congressional-climate-inacti...
Jun 30, 2013 - Koch Industries, according to Environmental Protection Agency ... Hill in favor of deregulation,” of the environment and energy sector, the study says. ... Paris Climate Agreement, the Koch Brothers' Campaign Becomes Overt.

ROFL! Noooooooo, regulations don't have a downside! They don't have a cost! It's those evil Koch brothers who are trying to fool everyone.

It's so telling that you won't even address the subject of the OP. You reflixively employ the classic Alinsky tactic.

Oh, I left out the other corporation that is greasing Pruitt's wheels: Devon Energy.
Pruitt would copy and paste their letters as his own and pass them on to initiate law suits.

How Rollbacks at Scott Pruitt's E.P.A. Are a Boon to Oil and Gas - The ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/business/energy.../devon-energy.html
May 20, 2017 - Devon Energy's Beaver Creek gas plant outside Riverton, Wyo. .... Devon brought on a team of politically connected lobbyists, including ...
In 2011, Scott Pruitt received a letter from Devon Energy, put his ...
In 2011, Scott Pruitt got a letter from an oil company, put his letterhead on it, and sent it to the EPA...
Jan 18, 2017 - So closely, in fact, that when Devon Energy, one of Oklahoma's biggest oil and ... In 2011, Scott Pruitt got a letter from an oil company, put his ...
Emails reveal EPA chief Pruitt's work with oil, gas companies | Fox News
www.foxnews.com/.../emails-reveal-epa-chief-pruitts-work-with-oil-gas-companies.html
Feb 22, 2017 - Other emails highlight the apparently close relationship Pruitthad with Devon Energy. The company helped Pruitt draft language in a letter he ...

^^^^^ Even Fox Noise owns it. Better wake the fuck up, BritTwit.

I hope EPA rollbacks are a boon to gas and oil. That's precisely the intent: cheap oil and cheap gas. Only dumbfucks believe expensive oil and gas are a good thing.

They don't want to roll it back to create cheaper prices, dumbass. They want to roll the regulations back so they can drill anywhere they want and get even wealthier at the expense of everyone else, their health and property.

You go fucking live in Oklahoma, Pruitt's state. Check out how many earthquakes they've had in the last 5 years from injecting waste water from fracking back down into the earth. That's what deregulation of the oil and gas industry will get you.

Earthquakes in Oklahoma
Earthquakes in Oklahoma
We know that Oklahoma experienced 623 magnitude 3+ earthquakes in2016, 903 in 2015, 579 in 2014 and 109 in 2013. This rise in seismic events has the ...
‎About Us | Earthquakes in ... · ‎Fracking causes earthquakes · ‎Earthquake Map
You've visited this page 2 times. Last visit: 12/7/16
Today's Earthquakes in Oklahoma, United States - Earthquake Track
Today's Earthquakes in Oklahoma, United States
Oklahoma, United States has had: (M1.5 or greater). 2 earthquakes in the past 24 hours; 19 earthquakes in the past 7 days; 71 earthquakes in the past 30 days ...
‎Kansas · ‎Biggest Quakes · ‎3+ mag · ‎4+ mag
Why Oklahoma Can't Turn Off Its Earthquakes - Bloomberg
https://www.bloomberg.com/.../2016-11.../why-oklahoma-can-t-turn-off-its-earthqua...
Nov 7, 2016 - November 7, 2016, 4:23 PM PST November 8, 2016, 8:43 AM PST. Sunday ... Last year, Oklahoma experienced more than 1,000earthquakes ...

More oil and gas means cheaper prices.

I'm sorry you don't understand basic economics. Most of what wacko environmentalists demand wouldn't exist if it wasn't for their ignorance about science and economics.

 

[bripat9643]

I am curious to know how many factories powered by wind and solar are producing windmills and solar panels. Are any of those renewable energy factories producing railroad engines, ships, automobiles and other heavy industry? Any of you tree huggers know?

solar panels are made with aluminum, which requires massive amounts of electric power to refine.

And how often to they have to be replaced? How long does one ton of coal last before it has to be replaced?
I lived in the NE for years and had to deal with filthy, dirty grimy heating oil. Now natural gas has replaced it and it's cleaner and cheaper.
You should educate yourself on these things before you pontificate so stupidly.

A ton of Powder River Basin coal costs only $11/ton and has about 20 million BTU's of energy. That's enough to heat your house for a long time. Producing electricy would consume a small fraction of the energy.

On the other hand, a set of solar panels sufficent to power your house will cost over $45,000, and that doesn't include the cost of bettery backup. Solar power will only run your refrigerator and your computer. It won't by sufficient to heat your house. Battery backup might get you through the night, but it won't last an entire day without sunshine.

BTW, natural gas is still a fossil fuel.

 

[xyz]

Trump Saves Lives by Killing EPA Regulations

Yeah, coal will help us live longer.

Especially if you mine it.

I wonder how many glasses of contaminated water the op has drunk today.

 

[bripat9643]

Trump Saves Lives by Killing EPA Regulations

Yeah, coal will help us live longer.

Especially if you mine it.

I wonder how many glasses of contaminated water the op has drunk today.

My water is contaminated with Radon. It's totally natural!

 

[Cellblock2429]

I am curious to know how many factories powered by wind and solar are producing windmills and solar panels. Are any of those renewable energy factories producing railroad engines, ships, automobiles and other heavy industry? Any of you tree huggers know?

solar panels are made with aluminum, which requires massive amounts of electric power to refine.

/—-/ I like telling snobby Prius drivers how their batteries are made.

 

[Tax Man]

The solar system I invested in was $15,ooo and I got a 30% tax credit. It powers the home all day and the battery wall does all night. Rainy days have little effect on the production of power. The nice thing is I am immune from raising rates for electricity and have missed a couple of increases already.

 

[bripat9643]

The solar system I invested in was $15,ooo and I got a 30% tax credit. It powers the home all day and the battery wall does all night. Rainy days have little effect on the production of power. The nice thing is I am immune from raising rates for electricity and have missed a couple of increases already.

How do you heat your home?

 

[Tax Man]

The solar system I invested in was $15,ooo and I got a 30% tax credit. It powers the home all day and the battery wall does all night. Rainy days have little effect on the production of power. The nice thing is I am immune from raising rates for electricity and have missed a couple of increases already.

How do you heat your home?

natural gas.

 

[bripat9643]

The solar system I invested in was $15,ooo and I got a 30% tax credit. It powers the home all day and the battery wall does all night. Rainy days have little effect on the production of power. The nice thing is I am immune from raising rates for electricity and have missed a couple of increases already.

How do you heat your home?

natural gas.

You're still dependent on fossil fuels.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

The solar system I invested in was $15,ooo and I got a 30% tax credit. It powers the home all day and the battery wall does all night. Rainy days have little effect on the production of power. The nice thing is I am immune from raising rates for electricity and have missed a couple of increases already.

How about not spreading a bunch of bullshit we all know is only half the story.

It doesn't power your home all day. Rainy days you still have power because you're still on the old grid. You haven't missed a single rise in electricity costs because they don't give a shit about your solar, you still pay the going rate for electricity. It will be about 20 years before you break even on that investment. Unfortunately your going to purchase new batteries four times in that span of time costing thousands. So much for the 20 year plan. You actually feel pretty dumb writing those checks to the electric company every month as your pretty sure the actual monthly savings means a 20 year pay off was pretty optomistic.