Trump will leave office with a historically bad economic record

[hadit]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

You know better than this, you've been taught.

Employers won't cut employees more than nine to one. Anything less than that still generates more federal income tax revenue than more people working at the current minimum wage rate.

And you think that over half the workforce getting raises won't have any impact on the labor market? Remember, 60%+ of the workforce earns $20/hr or less. All of them are going to either get a raise because they currently earn less then $15/hr or demand one because they don't want to go from making well over MW to making the same as some guy who just walked in off the street, or they'll quit. No, the only way you safely get to $15/hr is to raise it slowly enough that by the time you get there, the usual suspects (that's you) will be demanding $25/hr. Basically, you're looking to wreck the economy attempting to squeeze a few more dollars out of the working poor to feed the monster federal government.

Wages have not been meeting or beating inflation on an Institutional basis for Labor as the least wealthy in our republic. That creates more problems and increases the Cost of Government because means tested social services are expensive to administer.

Options:

1. Beat inflation. That means less government borrowing and spending, along with QE, which in turn means wilder swings in the economy.
2. Raise the actual value of labor. That means fewer MW jobs and more jobs requiring skills, training, and education.

Arbitrarily raising the MW in a vain attempt to make wages keep pace with inflation is a losing game because that action drives inflation and you eventually end up with worthless currency. Right now, you're advocating cutting the purchasing power of the dollar in half when it comes to labor. What used to buy an hour of labor will, in your fantasy, buy 1/2 hour.

No longer true in modern times. Inflation from wages is not that much of an issue with supply side economics. Increasing productivity solves for that.

Increasing productivity raises the actual value of labor, which is my option 2. It does, however, mean fewer low or no skilled jobs for teenagers trying to break into the job market.

You mean no "cheap manual labor jobs". Our economy is progressing with emerging technologies.

I mean fewer cheap manual labor jobs, because there will always be some of them around, just not as many. The kind of jobs teenagers take to generate a work history, skills and references to get them into better paying jobs. Bump the MW to far too fast and you cut them off and they're 25 years old before they can catch a break and get a job.

Kids should stay in school longer anyway. UC can make that happen and automatically stabilize our economy in the process. All true free market capitalism offers is nothing but boom and bust.

Your solution is to force teenagers who have no desire for further education and are perfectly capable of learning a valuable skill outside of school to remain in school long after they become adults? That's dumb.

 

[hadit]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

It will raise tax revenue

At what cost to the economy? The only way you can safely double the MW is to do it slowly enough that the market can absorb it.

Or, a one time cost living increase for that disparity with tax breaks for capitalists to help absorb the cost.

Okay, let's get this straight. You want to generate more tax revenue, so your solution is to REDUCE tax revenue to pay for it?

A one time cost of living adjustment.

Okay, calculate the cost to the economy of giving at least 42% of the workforce a raise (certainly a lot more. That's just how many earn less than $15/hr now) and the tax cut it will take to pay for it.

 

[danielpalos]

I reach my conclusion from history. Where did the MW start,

It started when black codes were still in effect. Sacrificing the End to the Means meant less efficiency for our economy.

 

[danielpalos]

And, you have refused to honestly answer the question, which is pertinent to what we're talking about. Why not just raise the MW to $100/hr right now and solve poverty altogether? Answer that.

I gave you a serious answer. You merely have an irrelevant question.

 

[danielpalos]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

You know better than this, you've been taught.

Employers won't cut employees more than nine to one. Anything less than that still generates more federal income tax revenue than more people working at the current minimum wage rate.

And you think that over half the workforce getting raises won't have any impact on the labor market? Remember, 60%+ of the workforce earns $20/hr or less. All of them are going to either get a raise because they currently earn less then $15/hr or demand one because they don't want to go from making well over MW to making the same as some guy who just walked in off the street, or they'll quit. No, the only way you safely get to $15/hr is to raise it slowly enough that by the time you get there, the usual suspects (that's you) will be demanding $25/hr. Basically, you're looking to wreck the economy attempting to squeeze a few more dollars out of the working poor to feed the monster federal government.

Wages have not been meeting or beating inflation on an Institutional basis for Labor as the least wealthy in our republic. That creates more problems and increases the Cost of Government because means tested social services are expensive to administer.

Options:

1. Beat inflation. That means less government borrowing and spending, along with QE, which in turn means wilder swings in the economy.
2. Raise the actual value of labor. That means fewer MW jobs and more jobs requiring skills, training, and education.

Arbitrarily raising the MW in a vain attempt to make wages keep pace with inflation is a losing game because that action drives inflation and you eventually end up with worthless currency. Right now, you're advocating cutting the purchasing power of the dollar in half when it comes to labor. What used to buy an hour of labor will, in your fantasy, buy 1/2 hour.

No longer true in modern times. Inflation from wages is not that much of an issue with supply side economics. Increasing productivity solves for that.

Increasing productivity raises the actual value of labor, which is my option 2. It does, however, mean fewer low or no skilled jobs for teenagers trying to break into the job market.

You mean no "cheap manual labor jobs". Our economy is progressing with emerging technologies.

I mean fewer cheap manual labor jobs, because there will always be some of them around, just not as many. The kind of jobs teenagers take to generate a work history, skills and references to get them into better paying jobs. Bump the MW to far too fast and you cut them off and they're 25 years old before they can catch a break and get a job.

Kids should stay in school longer anyway. UC can make that happen and automatically stabilize our economy in the process. All true free market capitalism offers is nothing but boom and bust.

Your solution is to force teenagers who have no desire for further education and are perfectly capable of learning a valuable skill outside of school to remain in school long after they become adults? That's dumb.

Not at all. UC for simply being unemployed can solve the dilemma of simple poverty. It would be up to Individuals to exercise their Liberty to pursue Happiness in a market friendly manner under our form of Capitalism.

 

[danielpalos]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

It will raise tax revenue

At what cost to the economy? The only way you can safely double the MW is to do it slowly enough that the market can absorb it.

Or, a one time cost living increase for that disparity with tax breaks for capitalists to help absorb the cost.

Okay, let's get this straight. You want to generate more tax revenue, so your solution is to REDUCE tax revenue to pay for it?

A one time cost of living adjustment.

Okay, calculate the cost to the economy of giving at least 42% of the workforce a raise (certainly a lot more. That's just how many earn less than $15/hr now) and the tax cut it will take to pay for it.

Doesn't mean much with fiat money. It could be done digitally.

 

[hadit]

I reach my conclusion from history. Where did the MW start,

It started when black codes were still in effect. Sacrificing the End to the Means meant less efficiency for our economy.

At what level did it start? That's the point.

 

[hadit]

And, you have refused to honestly answer the question, which is pertinent to what we're talking about. Why not just raise the MW to $100/hr right now and solve poverty altogether? Answer that.

I gave you a serious answer. You merely have an irrelevant question.

No, you did not. Tell me why we don't set the MW at $100/hr. Be honest, because there is an answer, an answer you don't want to admit is there because it destroys your fantasy. If you won't give it, I will.

 

[danielpalos]

I reach my conclusion from history. Where did the MW start,

It started when black codes were still in effect. Sacrificing the End to the Means meant less efficiency for our economy.

At what level did it start? That's the point.

The point is, the chief magistrate of the Union felt Capitalism is not working as advertised by the Right Wing and had to resort to Big Government nanny-Statism as a result.

Even Hoover knew it.

 

[danielpalos]

And, you have refused to honestly answer the question, which is pertinent to what we're talking about. Why not just raise the MW to $100/hr right now and solve poverty altogether? Answer that.

I gave you a serious answer. You merely have an irrelevant question.

No, you did not. Tell me why we don't set the MW at $100/hr. Be honest, because there is an answer, an answer you don't want to admit is there because it destroys your fantasy. If you won't give it, I will.

This is a serious answer: Sure, why not. We could actually balance the budget and pay for our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror in a more fiscally responsible manner.

 

[hadit]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

it won't raise any additional revenue.

all it will do is raise the poverty line to 31200 a year

It will raise tax revenue

At what cost to the economy? The only way you can safely double the MW is to do it slowly enough that the market can absorb it.

Or, a one time cost living increase for that disparity with tax breaks for capitalists to help absorb the cost.

Okay, let's get this straight. You want to generate more tax revenue, so your solution is to REDUCE tax revenue to pay for it?

A one time cost of living adjustment.

Okay, calculate the cost to the economy of giving at least 42% of the workforce a raise (certainly a lot more. That's just how many earn less than $15/hr now) and the tax cut it will take to pay for it.

Doesn't mean much with fiat money. It could be done digitally.

Which is the fast road to hyper inflation where a carton of eggs costs a trillion dollars, everyone is a trillionaire and starving. See, what you are avoiding like the plague is that there are real world consequences to what you want to do. These things do not happen in a vacuum, and if you arbitrarily devalue the currency, which is what you are doing by making a what used to buy an hour of unskilled labor now only buy 1/2 hour, you end up with worthless currency.

 

[danielpalos]

Which is the fast road to hyper inflation where a carton of eggs costs a trillion dollars, everyone is a trillionaire and starving.

Why do you believe that? We have a better understanding of economics such that even QE hasn't caused pre-WWII style inflation.

 

[hadit]

I reach my conclusion from history. Where did the MW start,

It started when black codes were still in effect. Sacrificing the End to the Means meant less efficiency for our economy.

At what level did it start? That's the point.

The point is, the chief magistrate of the Union felt Capitalism is not working as advertised by the Right Wing and had to resort to Big Government nanny-Statism as a result.

Even Hoover knew it.

Okay, since you won't deal with what's in front of you, the first MW was 25 cents an hour. Now it's $7.25/hour and you want to raise it to $15/hr. This is why inflation reduces the value of the currency. 25 cents used to buy an hour of labor, now how much of an hour will it buy? Unless you deal with inflation, raising the MW is a never ending process and you only end up with meaningless currency.

 

[hadit]

And, you have refused to honestly answer the question, which is pertinent to what we're talking about. Why not just raise the MW to $100/hr right now and solve poverty altogether? Answer that.

I gave you a serious answer. You merely have an irrelevant question.

No, you did not. Tell me why we don't set the MW at $100/hr. Be honest, because there is an answer, an answer you don't want to admit is there because it destroys your fantasy. If you won't give it, I will.

This is a serious answer: Sure, why not. We could actually balance the budget and pay for our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror in a more fiscally responsible manner.

And therein you admit your ignorance of economics and is why no one takes you seriously. We don't set the MW to $100/hr because it would immediately wipe out the vast majority of jobs, throwing all but a handful of people out of work and totally destroying the economy. Tax revenue would drop to virtually zero and people would starve. The point is that you can set the MW too high, which means that there is an effect to any increase, so you have to be careful not to raise it too high too fast. You live in a fantasy bubble where you can just arbitrarily set things to where you want them, no one will do anything different, and there are no negative effects to what you do. The real world doesn't work that way, so you are dismissed until you gain at least a high school level understanding of economics.

 

[hadit]

Which is the fast road to hyper inflation where a carton of eggs costs a trillion dollars, everyone is a trillionaire and starving.

Why do you believe that? We have a better understanding of economics such that even QE hasn't caused pre-WWI style inflation.

Digitally and arbitrarily juggling the prices of goods doesn't change their real value. That's inflation, because what used to buy an hour's labor now buys only a few minutes.

 

[danielpalos]

Digitally and arbitrarily juggling the prices of goods doesn't change their real value.

You misunderstand. We use fiat money as a unit of account not a, store of commodity wealth, in its own right.

 

[Harry Dresden]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

to what?...

 

[danielpalos]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

to what?...

Goalposts already fixed as Standards for our Union by Government?

 

[Harry Dresden]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

to what?...

Goalposts already fixed as Standards for our Union by Government?

cant you ever answer a question?.....or does someone else have to do your talking?.....

 

[danielpalos]

except they're still geared to soak the middle class

Indeed. And the trump/GOP tax bill is about to raise taxes every year for the middle class.for a.while, starting in 2021. We shall see which party wants to lower taxes for the middle class.

neither does neither will

oh sure they'll tell you that income taxes might be cut a little but they'll just broaden the tax base like Reagan did and people will really end up paying more

raise the minimum wage to raise tax revenue!

to what?...

Goalposts already fixed as Standards for our Union by Government?

cant you ever answer a question?.....or does someone else have to do your talking?.....

Fiscally? How about a balanced budget and fiscal responsibility regarding the general warfare the right wing prefers over the general welfare.