U.S. Soldiers Punished For Not Attending Christian Concert

[Father Time]

You're right, the DoI isn't "law", but the Constitution and the first amendment certainly are.
The protection of religion is our first law.

The rest of your arguement is a strawman, no one ever said "God" was in "ALL OF OUR LAWS".

Protection of religion IS seperation of church and state.

Seperation of church and state is a fallacy.

No it's not. Try looking up what a fallacy is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

 

[Father Time]

You're right, the DoI isn't "law", but the Constitution and the first amendment certainly are.
The protection of religion is our first law.

The rest of your arguement is a strawman, no one ever said "God" was in "ALL OF OUR LAWS".

Protection of religion IS seperation of church and state.

"Separation of church and state" refers to the fact that our government cannot make any one church (example- the Catholic Church) the official religion or create a state run church.

It also cannot endorse any religion like say Christianity.

 

[Father Time]

More references to God and other "religious stuff":

Constitution of Massachusetts
1780

Art. II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience, or for his religious profession or sentiments, provided he doth not disturb the public peace or obstruct others in their religious worship.

Before the 14th state constitutions were allowed to contradict the federal one so pointing to states doesn't mean much.

the phrase comes from Thomas Jefferson who said this

"to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves, is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness,"

The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom - Religious Freedom Page

This tells me he wouldn't support using taxpayer money to endorse Christianity (like say on our money)

 

[fyrenza]

162 replies,

11 pages in.

Any citations that are valid for this story yet?

 

[theHawk]

More references to God and other "religious stuff":

Constitution of Massachusetts
1780

Art. II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience, or for his religious profession or sentiments, provided he doth not disturb the public peace or obstruct others in their religious worship.

Before the 14th state constitutions were allowed to contradict the federal one so pointing to states doesn't mean much.

the phrase comes from Thomas Jefferson who said this

"to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves, is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness,"

The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom - Religious Freedom Page

This tells me he wouldn't support using taxpayer money to endorse Christianity (like say on our money)

Where is anyone advocating using taxpayer money to endorse Christianity?

 

[AllieBaba]

Protection of religion IS seperation of church and state.

"Separation of church and state" refers to the fact that our government cannot make any one church (example- the Catholic Church) the official religion or create a state run church.

It also cannot endorse any religion like say Christianity.

or Islam.

 

[ConHog]

Talk To Action | U.S. Soldiers Punished For Not Attending Christian Concert

On May 13, 2010, about eighty soldiers, stationed at Fort Eustis while attending a training course, were punished for opting out of attending one of these Christian concerts. The headliner at this concert was a Christian rock band called BarlowGirl, a band that describes itself as taking "an aggressive, almost warrior-like stance when it comes to spreading the gospel and serving God."

Any doubt that this was an evangelical Christian event was cleared up by the Army post's newspaper, the Fort Eustis Wheel, which ran an article after the concert that began:

"Following the Apostle Paul's message to the Ephesians in the Bible, Christian rock music's edgy, all-girl band BarlowGirl brought the armor of God to the warriors and families of Fort Eustis during another installment of the Commanding General's Spiritual Fitness Concert Series May 13 at Jacobs Theater."

"Those of us that chose not to attend (about 80, or a little less that half) were marched back to the company area. At that point the NCO issued us a punishment. We were to be on lock-down in the company (not released from duty), could not go anywhere on post (no PX, no library, etc). We were to go to strictly to the barracks and contact maintenance. If we were caught sitting in our rooms, in our beds, or having/handling electronics (cell phones, laptops, games) and doing anything other than maintenance, we would further have our weekend passes revoked and continue barracks maintenance for the entirety of the weekend. At that point the implied message was clear in my mind 'we gave you a choice to either satisfy us or disappoint us. Since you chose to disappoint us you will now have your freedoms suspended and contact chores while the rest of your buddies are enjoying a concert.'

"At that evening, nine of us chose to pursue an EO complaint. I was surprised to find out that a couple of the most offended soldiers were actually Christian themselves (Catholic). One of them was grown as a child in Cuba and this incident enraged him particularly as it brought memories of oppression."

In the Army.mil article, Maj. Gen. Chambers was quoted as saying, "The idea is not to be a proponent for any one religion. It's to have a mix of different performers with different religious backgrounds." But there has been no "mix of different performers with different religious backgrounds" at these concerts. Every one of them has had evangelical Christian performers, who typically not only perform their music but give their Christian testimony and read from the Bible in between songs.

So, thoughts USMB?

Shows what a pussy you are. When I was in boot camp, EVERYONE went to "optional" chapel on Sunday because if you didn't you "chose" to be on cleanup duty for the day.

PS - COTUS rights do not apply in the military.

 

[rikules]

Talk To Action | U.S. Soldiers Punished For Not Attending Christian Concert







So, thoughts USMB?

a very similiar thing occurred at the air force academy a few years back

forced prayers

team jesus banners in the athletic locker rooms

students unwilling to participate in the christian madness were punished

----------------


it's rather amusing to see ALL of these conservative posters refusing to believe any of this and demanding
links to a SOURCE that THEY will accept (and what source would that be? well...fox news....which would probably never report this in the first place since they would probably SUPPORT forced/coerced christianity....

support...and deny....

reminds me of all those germans before, during and after WWII who denied the holocaust....


So far, not one of the conservative posters has said "IF this is true then I denounce it!"

merely...."I don't believe it
so it aint true"

I would not be surprised, should fox news corroborate the story, that these same conservatives would then start explaining why it is a GOOD THING! and we liberals shold just shut up.....

Idle hearsay.

I find it interesting that you are so adament about your opinions when it is obvious you are so uninformed

just because you don't know that it happened doesn't mean that it didn't happen


http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41569

the military should be secular

every soldier/sailer/etc has a right to their own personal beliefs

but the military leadership should NOT be pushing christianity

and nonchristians should NOT be punished for not being christians

would you at least agree with any of that?

 

[rikules]

Talk To Action | U.S. Soldiers Punished For Not Attending Christian Concert

On May 13, 2010, about eighty soldiers, stationed at Fort Eustis while attending a training course, were punished for opting out of attending one of these Christian concerts. The headliner at this concert was a Christian rock band called BarlowGirl, a band that describes itself as taking "an aggressive, almost warrior-like stance when it comes to spreading the gospel and serving God."

Any doubt that this was an evangelical Christian event was cleared up by the Army post's newspaper, the Fort Eustis Wheel, which ran an article after the concert that began:

"Following the Apostle Paul's message to the Ephesians in the Bible, Christian rock music's edgy, all-girl band BarlowGirl brought the armor of God to the warriors and families of Fort Eustis during another installment of the Commanding General's Spiritual Fitness Concert Series May 13 at Jacobs Theater."

In the Army.mil article, Maj. Gen. Chambers was quoted as saying, "The idea is not to be a proponent for any one religion. It's to have a mix of different performers with different religious backgrounds." But there has been no "mix of different performers with different religious backgrounds" at these concerts. Every one of them has had evangelical Christian performers, who typically not only perform their music but give their Christian testimony and read from the Bible in between songs.

So, thoughts USMB?

Shows what a pussy you are. When I was in boot camp, EVERYONE went to "optional" chapel on Sunday because if you didn't you "chose" to be on cleanup duty for the day.

PS - COTUS rights do not apply in the military.

does that mean you believe that soldiers can be forced to attend christian services?

that the military can punish soldiers who refuse to attend?

 

[Gadawg73]

You're right, the DoI isn't "law", but the Constitution and the first amendment certainly are.
The protection of religion is our first law.

The rest of your arguement is a strawman, no one ever said "God" was in "ALL OF OUR LAWS".

Protection of religion IS seperation of church and state.

Not the way it's purposefully and dishonestly misinterpreted by some.

I agree with that as long as you admit BOTH sides do it.
Right?

 

[AllieBaba]

Moron.

The Marine Corps. What is their hierarchy of loyalty?

 

[rikules]

You're right, the DoI isn't "law", but the Constitution and the first amendment certainly are.
The protection of religion is our first law.

The rest of your arguement is a strawman, no one ever said "God" was in "ALL OF OUR LAWS".

Protection of religion IS seperation of church and state.

Seperation of church and state is a fallacy.

Nowhere in the constitution does it say "America is a christian nation"

seperation of church and state is what we have

and it's a good thing!

nobodys religion should be forced on any American

freedom of religion (which IS in the constitution) does include freedom FROM

how can anyone justify forcing people to accept or believe in something that they just don't believe in?

why would anyone want to force people to accept religion or god?

why would any REAL American WANT to punish people who don't believe in god?

doesn't it make much more sense to base our government, our laws, on logic and reason and NOT on outdated and antiquated religious superstitions?

 

[AllieBaba]

Doesn't really fit with the (false) premise that the military is religion-neutral.

 

[rikules]

I would extend the same advice to the pantywaist atheist who whines about his treatment at the hands of the soldiers that I gave to the little loser next door who used to torment my kids...

If you don't want to get the shit knocked out of you, don't fuck with the big dogs. While they will certainly get in trouble for their treatment of you, you're still the one who will suffer.

do you enjoy hurting people?

 

[rikules]

Doesn't really fit with the (false) premise that the military is religion-neutral.

The military SHOULD BE religion nuetral

any American who wants to serve in the military, regardless of their religious beliefs or nonbeliefs, should be able to do so without religious coercion

 

[rikules]

There is a separtion of church and state in this country.

Really? Where in the law does it say that?

where in the law does it say that America is a christian nation?

 

[ConHog]

Talk To Action | U.S. Soldiers Punished For Not Attending Christian Concert







So, thoughts USMB?

Shows what a pussy you are. When I was in boot camp, EVERYONE went to "optional" chapel on Sunday because if you didn't you "chose" to be on cleanup duty for the day.

PS - COTUS rights do not apply in the military.

does that mean you believe that soldiers can be forced to attend christian services?

that the military can punish soldiers who refuse to attend?

If by punish you mean assign duties, yes. However the reality is that soldiers aren't limited to Christianity, and you know that.

 

[ConHog]

Doesn't really fit with the (false) premise that the military is religion-neutral.

The military SHOULD BE religion nuetral

any American who wants to serve in the military, regardless of their religious beliefs or nonbeliefs, should be able to do so without religious coercion

And of course they are.

Too bad for you that you do not understand that in our volunteer military, a person VOLUNTEERS to forgo certain rights. The UCMJ is loosely based on the COTUS, at besat.

 

[rikules]

"The idea is not to be a proponent for any one religion," he said. "It's to have a mix of different performers with different religious backgrounds."
"Chambers acknowledges without trepidation that there are some Soldiers who lack the moral upbringing or ethical consciousness to fulfill their promise as Soldiers"


His job is not to give them religion.

Its to train them to fight.

I am NO religion and so are MANY Americans and we dont want your religions no matter how much you think we should have them.

So moral upbringing or ethical consciousness is only for religious people? Nonreligious people don't possess moral upbringing nor ethical consciousness?

Surely you jest.

of course not.

isn't it obvious to you that non-religious people can be moral?

most atheists have fine morals!

and judging by some of the insults and personal attacks posted by so many conservative christians I would have to say that being a religious person or a christian doesn't neccessarily make for a good moral upbringing or ethical consciousness, either.

you and allbabba and palerider are good examples of christians (I assume you are christians) who exhibit questionable moral and ethical values

if religion/christianity is supposed to be good for your ethics and morals then why do you and so many of your religious/christan friends post so many nasty insults?

 

[SW2SILVER]

Omygawd! As an encore they blow up innocent civilians ,Crash a plane in New York? WOW. They SANG A SONG! People in the military were made to listen? Tell it to the marines. MY Freedom isn't threatened and you are fishing boyo.