Uh Oh: Rick Perry Gets Popped With The Dreaded Evolution Question. (Click For Answer)

If stuff only gets rearranged, how is it lost then, if it can't be gained?

It doesn't matter, mutations can cause both loss of information and gain. This has been observed, it is a fact of modern biology.

Because mutations come at a loss of a function.

Yes, a mutation can cause a change in the information because the information is rearranged, but it's rare for that rearranged information to be beneficial to the organism.

I already presented the " NINE CONDITIONS FOR MUTATION FIXATION " and each and everyone of these must be present.

So your theory fails before it starts.

Mutations do not only take away information, they can add to it. I have pointed this out, and there is evidence for it. Stop lying and stop wasting my time.

All mutations result in the loss of the origional information.


mu·ta·tion
   [myoo-tey-shuhn] Show IPA

noun
1.
Biology .
a.
a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome.

b.
an individual, species, or the like, resulting from such a departure.

2.
the act or process of changing.

3.
a change or alteration, as in form or nature.

4.
Phonetics . umlaut.

5.
Linguistics . (in Celtic languages) syntactically determined morphophonemic phenomena that affect initial sounds of words.

So they are a loss of the origional information.



THE ERRORS OF THE NATIONAL
ACADEMY OF SCIENCES BOOKLET
A Reply to the National Academy of Sciences Booklet, Science and Creationism



THE NAS'S ERRORS
REGARDING MUTATIONS

The National Academy of Sciences suggests that mutations provide the necessary genetic variation for evolution, and refers to them as follows: "They may or may not equip the organism with better means for surviving in its environment." (Science and Creationism, p. 10). In fact, however, contrary to what the NAS authors claim, mutations do not lead to beneficial characteristics, and all experiments and observations on this subject have confirmed this fact.


Mutations are random changes in a living thing's DNA, the molecule in which its genetic information is contained.
Mutation refers to random changes in an organism's DNA, the molecule in which its genetic information is stored. Scientists compare DNA to a data bank or large library. Just as the random and unconscious addition of letters to any of the books in a library-or indeed any change in the order of the letters of such a book-will ruin the sense of the relevant words and sentences, so too does genetic mutation in organisms have an information-destroying effect. Mutation, which acts on the complex information in the DNA in a random and unconscious manner, harms the DNA, and therefore harms the organism bearing the DNA. At best, it may have no effect at all. However, mutations can never add any new information to DNA, and do not make any kind of improvement in the organism. Not a single instance of this has ever been observed.


Scientists compare DNA to a data bank or a large library.
The latest example of this is the negative effects of mutations on human beings. In recent years, thousands of diseases have been found to be caused by genetic mutations. Genetics textbooks list some 4,500 different genetic diseases. Such diseases caused by genetic mutations include Down's syndrome, sickle-cell anemia, dwarfism, mental impairment, cystic fibrosis, and certain forms of cancer. The reason why generations of people were born deformed or sick because of radiation at Hiroshima, and more recently Chernobyl, is again mutations.

Pierre-Paul Grassé, former president of the French Academy of Sciences and author of the 35-volume Traité de Zoologie, likened mutations to spelling mistakes in one of his papers, and said that they could never give rise to evolution:


If letters are added randomly and unconsciously to any one of the books in a library, various words and sentences in that book will lose their meaning. The same thing applies to DNA. A random and unconscious intervention in the complex information in DNA-in other words, a mutation-will damage DNA, and consequently the organism itself. At best, a mutation may have no effect at all on the organism.
Mutations, in time, occur incoherently. They are not complementary to one another, nor are they cumulative in successive generations toward a given direction. They modify what preexists, but they do so in disorder, no matter how… As soon as some disorder, even slight, appears in an organized being, sickness, then death follow. There is no possible compromise between the phenomenon of life and anarchy.1

As Grassé states, mutations bring disorder to exceedingly ordered structures. Genetic mutations might be compared to an earthquake or to hurling a clock against a wall. In the same way that an earthquake cannot improve a city, nor a violent impact a clock, so too genetic mutations do not improve living things, but rather harm them. Evolutionists are aware of this, but still propose mutations as the mechanism that brings about evolution. In order to better see the evolutionists' inconsistencies in this area, it will be useful to include some statements on the harmful effects of mutations on living things made by evolutionist scientists

Francisco J. Ayala, of the University of California, Irvine, a professor of biological sciences and philosophy:

High energy radiations, such as x-rays, increase the rate of mutation. Mutations induced by radiation are random in the sense that they arise independently of their effects on the fitness of the individuals which carry them. Randomly induced mutations are usually deleterious. In a precisely organized and complex system like the genome of an organism, a random change will most frequently decrease, rather than increase, the orderliness or useful information of the system.2

James F. Crow, head of the Genetics Department at the University of Wisconsin and an expert on radiation and mutation:


Scientists compare mutations to an earthquake in a city or a clock being thrown hard against a wall. In the same way that earthquakes do not develop cities, and hurling clocks against walls does not improve them, mutations do not improve living things, but rather damage them.
Almost every mutation is harmful, and it is the individual who pays the price. Any human activity that tends to increase the mutation rate must therefore raise serious health and moral problems for man.3

A random change in the highly integrated system of chemical processes which constitute life is almost certain to impair it-just as a random interchange of connections in a television set is not likely to improve the picture.4

The biologist Dr. Mahlon B. Hoagland:

The information that resides in organisms that are alive today . . . is far more refined than the work of all the world's great poets combined. The chance that a random change of a letter or word or phrase would improve the reading is remote; on the other hand, it is very likely that a random hit would be harmful. It is for this reason that many biologists view with dismay the proliferation of nuclear weapons, nuclear power plants, and industrially generated mutagenic (mutation-producing) chemicals.5

You'll recall we learned that almost always a change in an organism's DNA is detrimental to it; that is, it leads to a reduced capacity to survive. By way of analogy, random additions of sentences to the plays of Shakespeare are not likely to improve them! . . . The principle that DNA changes are harmful by virtue of reducing survival chances applies whether a change in DNA is caused by a mutation or by some foreign genes we deliberately add to it.6

The well-known mathematician Dr. Warren Weaver

Moreover, the mutant genes, in the vast majority of cases, and in all the species so far studied, lead to some kind of harmful effect. In extreme cases the harmful effect is death itself, or loss of the ability to produce offspring, or some other serious abnormality.7

Many will be puzzled about the statement that practically all known mutant genes are harmful. For mutations are a necessary part of the process of evolution. How can a good effect-evolution to higher forms of life-result from mutations practically all of which are harmful?.8
Weaver's question is a very important one, and demands an answer from evolutionists: How can a good effect-evolution to higher forms of life-result from mutations practically all of which are harmful?

I.L. Cohen, a member of the New York Academy of Sciences, says: "To propose and argue that mutations even in tandem with 'natural selection' are the root-causes for 6,000,000 viable, enormously complex species, is to mock logic, deny the weight of evidence, and reject the fundamentals of mathematical probability."9 This statement unmasks the absurdity of those who believe that all life forms are the work of mutation and natural selection.


In order for a gilled fish to become a creature breathing with lungs, it would need a great many mutations. To expect "beneficial" mutations and ones "aimed directly at the transition to the lung" to keep occurring is to believe in the impossible.
Another reason why evolutionists' claims regarding mutation are not credible is that just as there are no beneficial mutations, there is no mechanism in nature that might bring together and protect these useful mutations. For example, a blind creature will need a few mutations in order to possess an eye and an optic system. Expecting "beneficial" mutations accurately directed towards the eye, optic nerves, and visual center in the brain to keep occurring among that creature's descendants is to believe in the impossible. Therefore, consciousness and power are required to continue in that creature's descendants. Furthermore, they must foresee that the creature will need to see the outside world, they must provide all the necessary genetic information regarding vision and the eye, and they must carefully bring beneficial and accurate mutations together down the generations. Yet, there is no such consciousness and intelligence in nature.

Several evolutionists have drawn attention to this impossibility. For example, Professor Kevin Padian, of the University of California at Berkeley, asks whether random mutations in nature give rise to living species:

How do major evolutionary changes get started? Does anyone still believe that populations sit around for tens of thousands of years, waiting for favorable mutations to occur (and just how does that happen, by the way?), then anxiously guard them until enough accumulate for selection to push the population toward new and useful change? There you have the mathematical arguments of neodarwinism that Waddington and others rightly characterized as "vacuous".10

Grassé has this to say on the same point:

Mutations, in time, occur incoherently. They are not complementary to one another, nor are they cumulative in successive generations toward a given direction.11
Even if we grant what evolutionists can never actually demonstrate and accept that "favorable mutations" have come about in the necessary quantities, this still does not save the theory of evolution. Some important calculations by the Israeli bio-physicist Dr. Lee Spetner, who has worked at some of the most eminent universities in the world, such as MIT and Johns Hopkins, were brought to the attention of the scientific world in the book Not By Chance. In this book, which questions neo-Darwinism, Spetner employs the figures given by evolutionist authorities (such as mutation frequency and the ratio of "favorable mutations" to all mutations) and makes a detailed calculation of whether it is possible for one species to change into another. His conclusion is striking: Impossible! Even if we accept the theoretical existence of "favorable mutations," which have never been observed in experiments, it is still impossible for these to accumulate consecutively and in the right direction in a living species. It is also impossible for them to be permanent due to the disadvantages they bring with them, and thus it is impossible for a new species to emerge.

No evolutionist has been able to give a satisfactory response to Spetner's calculation.



"Favorable mutations" that never were

As we have seen, mutations are harmful to living things and no example of a beneficial mutation has ever been observed. The examples put forward by evolutionists as "beneficial mutations" all actually consist of distortions. In none of these examples have the benefits necessary for the evolution of an organism-that is, an increase in genetic information-ever come about. Let us now examine why the instances of "beneficial mutations" put forward by evolutionists are not actually useful at all, and cannot lead to evolution.



Sickle-cell anemia:


Above, the unhealthy appearance of a damaged blood cell.
Sickle-cell anemia is a serious disease stemming from an error in the gene that encodes the molecule hemoglobin, which is responsible for carrying oxygen in the blood-in other words, from a mutation.
Sickle-cell anemia stems from an inherited fault in the code necessary for the production of the hemoglobin molecule, which helps carry oxygen in the blood. As a result of this fault, the structure of the hemoglobin molecule is defective and its ability to carry oxygen is severely impaired. The normal circular shape of the cells which carry hemoglobin becomes deformed and turns into a sickle shape. Since people with sickle-cell anemia gain a resistance to malaria, evolutionists describe this as a beneficial mutation. The fact is, however, that there is no increase in complexity nor any improvement in the organism's functions; on the contrary, there is a defect. Sufferers from sickle-cell anemia experience impaired development, a lack of immunity to infection, chronic organ damage due to clogged veins, poor organ function and organ deficiencies, and lack of energy.

It is astonishing that this example of mutation, dealt with in the chapters on diseases of the blood in medical text books, should be seen as "beneficial." It is irrational for evolutionists to say that sufferers' resistance to malaria is a gift to them from evolution, for which reason the mutation in question is a favorable one. That claim is just as illogical as telling a blind man he has an advantage because he cannot be blinded by the sun.



Bacterial resistance to antibiotics:

Another example of evolutionists' "beneficial mutations" is the resistance of bacteria to antibiotics. Like all the other examples, this one, too, is a deception.

It is no secret that bacteria gradually develop a resistance to antibiotics over time. What happens is this: Most bacteria subjected to an antibiotic die, but some remain unaffected by it, and multiplying rapidly they come to comprise the entire population. In this way, the entire population comes to be immune to the antibiotic.

Evolutionists, however, claim that bacteria evolve according to the conditions in which they find themselves. The truth is, however, rather different. The Israeli biophysicist Professor Lee Spetner is one of the figures who have carried out the most detailed studies in this area. Professor Spetner explains how this resistance comes about by means of two separate mechanisms, neither of which makes any contribution to evolution. The two mechanisms in question are:


Above; Bacterial DNA. Bacteria that suffer a loss of genetic information as a result of mutation become resistant to antibiotics. Yet, that mutation does not add any information to or develop the DNA. For that reason, it is no proof of evolution.
1) The transmission of already existing immunity genes in the bacteria and

2) The building of resistance as a result of losing genetic data because of mutation.

The first mechanism is no evidence for evolution:

In a 2001 article Professor Spetner describes the first mechanism in this way:

Some microorganisms are endowed with genes that grant resistance to these antibiotics. This resistance can take the form of degrading the antibiotic molecule or of ejecting it from the cell... [T]he organisms having these genes can transfer them to other bacteria making them resistant as well. Although the resistance mechanisms are specific to a particular antibiotic, most pathogenic bacteria have... succeeded in accumulating several sets of genes granting them resistance to a variety of antibiotics.12

This is no proof of evolution, as Professor Spetner describes:

The acquisition of antibiotic resistance in this manner... is not the kind that can serve as a prototype for the mutations needed to account for Evolution… The genetic changes that could illustrate the theory must not only add information to the bacterium's genome, they must add new information to the biocosm. The horizontal transfer of genes only spreads around genes that are already in some species.13

In other words, there is no evolution here because no new genetic information appears. All that happens is that genetic information that already exists is transferred among bacteria.



The second mechanism is no evidence for evolution:

The second form of immunity, that resulting from mutation, is also no evidence for evolution. Professor Spetner states:

... A microorganism can sometimes acquire resistance to an antibiotic through a random substitution of a single nucleotide... Streptomycin, which was discovered by Selman Waksman and Albert Schatz and first reported in 1944, is an antibiotic against which bacteria can acquire resistance in this way. But although the mutation they undergo in the process is beneficial to the microorganism in the presence of streptomycin, it cannot serve as a prototype for the kind of mutations needed by NDT [Neo-Darwinian Theory]. The type of mutation that grants resistance to streptomycin is manifest in the ribosome and degrades its molecular match with the antibiotic molecule.14

In his book Not By Chance, Spetner compares this to the disturbance of the key-lock relationship. Like a key that perfectly fits a lock, streptomycin attaches itself to the bacteria's ribosome, disabling it. Mutation, on the other hand, damages the form of the ribosome, and in this case the streptomycin cannot attach itself to the ribosome. Even if this is interpreted as "the bacteria's gaining immunity to streptomycin" the bacteria actually suffer a loss rather than a gain. Spetner continues:


The DNA of the E. coli bacterium
This change in the surface of the microorganism's ribosome prevents the streptomycin molecule from attaching and carrying out its antibiotic function. It turns out that this degradation is a loss of specificity and therefore a loss of information. The main point is that Evolution… cannot be achieved by mutations of this sort, no matter how many of them there are. Evolution cannot be built by accumulating mutations that only degrade specificity.15

In summary: A mutation impinging on the bacteria's ribosome can make the bacteria resistant to streptomycin. The reason for this, however, is that the mutation "deforms" the ribosome. In other words, no genetic information is added to the bacteria. On the contrary, the structure of the ribosome is damaged, and the bacteria are literally disabled. (It has, in fact, been established that the ribosomes of bacteria subjected to mutation are much less functional than those of normal bacteria.) Since this disability prevents the antibiotic, whose design allows it to attach itself to the ribosome, from latching on to it , "antibiotic resistance" develops.

In conclusion, there is no instance of a mutation that "improves genetic information," and the immunity mechanisms in bacteria do not represent evidence for the theory of evolution. Professor Spetner states that the mutations required by the theory of evolution have never been observed:

The mutations needed for macroevolution have never been observed. No random mutations that could represent the mutations required by Neo-Darwinian Theory that have been examined on the molecular level have added any information. The question I address is: Are the mutations that have been observed the kind the theory needs for support? The answer turns out to be NO!16



Experiments on fruit flies:

As long as a mutation does not change the morphology-that is, the shape-of an organism, it cannot be the raw material of evolution. One of the living things in which morphological mutations have been most intensively studied is the fruit fly (Drosophila melanogaster). In one of the many mutations Drosophila was subjected to, the two-winged fruit fly developed a second pair of wings. Ever since 1978 this four-winged fruit fly has gained great popularity in textbooks and other evolutionist publications.


In mutations caused in fruit flies, these insects have grown an extra pair of wings. However, what evolutionists are reluctant to make clear is that these extra wings have no flight muscles, and therefore represent a serious obstacle to the insect's flying at all. For that reason, the mutations in question have handicapped the insects, rather than improved them.
However, one point that evolutionist publications hardly ever mention is that the extra wings possess no flight muscles. These fruit flies are therefore deformed, since these wings represent a serious obstacle to flight. They also have difficulties in mating. They are unable to survive in the wild. In his important book Icons of Evolution, the American biologist Jonathan Wells studies the four-winged fruit fly, together with other classic Darwinist propaganda tools, and explains in great detail why this example does not constitute evidence for evolution.

The truth is that fruit flies constituted no proof of evolution during the 20th century, and that is accepted even by evolutionists. Gordon Taylor, former chief science advisor of the BBC, once said:

It is a striking, but not much mentioned fact that, though geneticists have been breeding fruit-flies for sixty years or more in labs all around the world-flies which produce a new generation every eleven days-they have never yet seen the emergence of a new species or even a new enzyme.17

In his book Adam and Evolution, Professor Michael Pitman makes this comment:

Morgan, Goldschmidt, Muller, and other geneticists have subjected generations of fruit flies to extreme conditions of heat, cold, light, dark, and treatment by chemicals and radiation. All sorts of mutations, practically all trivial or positively deleterious, have been produced. Man-made evolution? Not really: Few of the geneticists' monsters could have survived outside the bottles they were bred in. In practice mutants die, are sterile, or tend to revert to the wild type.18

In conclusion, neither fruit flies, nor bacterial resistance to antibiotics, nor sickle-cell anemia constitutes evidence of evolution. Therefore, evolutionists' claims that mutations are the cause of evolution do not rest on scientific evidence.






1 Pierre-Paul Grassé, Evolution of Living Organisms, New York: Academic Press, 1977, pp. 97-98.
2 Francisco J. Ayala, "Genotype Environment and Population Numbers," Science, vol. 162, December 27, 1968, p. 1456
3 James F. Crow, "Ionizing Radiation and Evolution," Scientific American, vol. 201, September 1959, p. 138. (emphasis added)
4 James F. Crow (Professor of Genetics, University of Wisconsin), "Genetic Effects of Radiation," Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, no. 14, 1958, pp. 19-20
5 Mahlon B. Hoagland, The Roots of Life: A Layman's Guide To Genes, Evolution, and the Ways of Cells, Houghton Mifflin Co., 1981, p. 64
6 Mahlon B. Hoagland, The Roots of Life: A Layman's Guide To Genes, Evolution, and the Ways of Cells, Houghton Mifflin Co., 1981, p. 145. (emphasis added)
7 Warren Weaver, "Genetic Effects of Atomic Radiation," Science, vol. 123, June 29, 1956, p. 1158
8 Warren Weaver, "Genetic Effects of Atomic Radiation," Science, vol. 123, June 29, 1956, p. 1159
9 I.L. Cohen, Darwin Was Wrong: A Study in Probabilities, New York: New Research Publications, Inc., 1984, p. 81
10 "The Whole real Guts of Evolution", Paleobiology, vol. 15, Winter, 1989, p. 77
11 Pierre-Paul Grassé, Evolution of Living Organisms, New York: Academic Press, 1977, pp. 97-98
12 Dr. Lee Spetner, "Lee Spetner/Edward Max Dialogue: Continuing an exchange with Dr. Edward E. Max," 2001; Dr. Lee Spetner's continued exchange with Dr. Edward E. Max
13 Dr. Lee Spetner, Dr. Lee Spetner's continued exchange with Dr. Edward E. Max
14 Dr. Lee Spetner, Dr. Lee Spetner's continued exchange with Dr. Edward E. Max.
15 Dr. Lee Spetner, Dr. Lee Spetner's continued exchange with Dr. Edward E. Max (emphasis added)
16 Dr. Lee Spetner, Dr. Lee Spetner's continued exchange with Dr. Edward E. Max
17 Gordon Rattray Taylor, The Great Evolution Mystery, London: Abacus, Sphere Books, 1984, p. 48
18 Michael Pitman, Adam and Evolution, London: River Publishing, 1984, p

THE ERRORS OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES BOOKLET
 
Please stop wasting my time and cite a reputable source.

You couldn't answer an easy question trutfully.

Do kinds bring forth offspring after their kind ?

I am only wasting your time if you can't be honest. :eusa_hand:

The Bible is not a scientific source. It has no place in any field of science. The question was where does new information arise if not from mutations. Stop wasting my time and get thee to a library.

I told you, I believe the information that caused the diversity in each family we see was present from the time of creation. The bible is awesome source to reality and can be confirmed.

You're still avoiding to answer the question,do kinds bring forth offspring after their kinds ?

Where did the information come from to begin with ?
 
Please stop wasting my time and cite a reputable source.

Your theory contradicts itself,let me give you an example.

Does natural selection lean toward genetic diversity or stability?

That's not an example, that's a question. Tell me how it contradicts yourself, or stop claiming to know something you don't.

Yeah it is a contradiction when you answer the question. Because you want to say it does both. :eusa_hand:
 
I'm still waiting what the scientific principles of creationism are, something that doesn't include half-baked criticisms of evolution. If evolution is wrong, and creationism is right, there must be some concepts behind it, and testable experiments with results to show how it works, like all scientific theories do. There must be some kind of science behind it if it wants the controversy taught and equal footing in science classrooms.

Ah ha,you're not liking how the conversation is going so let's change the subject. :lol: how many times do i need to post it for you?

Summary of Scientific Evidence for Creation (Part I & II)

by Duane Gish, Ph.D.


This impact pamphlet was written by a scientist, and a science educator, and reviewed by an attorney, to provide a brief summary of the scientific evidence supporting creation. The text materials and references listed at the end together give a more thorough discussion of this scientific evidence.

Introduction

Public schools in many localities are teaching two scientific models - the creation model and the evolution model of the origin of the universe, of life, and of man. There is apparent scientific evidence for creation, which is summarized in this pamphlet, just as there is apparent scientific evidence for evolution. The purpose of this pamphlet is to summarize the evidence that shows that:





"The creation model is at least as scientific as the evolution model, and is at least as nonreligious as the evolution model."



This scientific evidence for both models can be taught in public schools without any mention of religious doctrine, whether the Bible or the Humanist Manifesto. There are text materials and teacher handbooks that have been prepared for a fair presentation of both models, creation and evolution. There are also seminars and audiovisuals for training teachers to offer both models of origins.





"This scientific evidence both for creation and for evolution can and must be taught without any religious doctrine, whether the Bible or the Humanist Manifesto."
"Creation-science proponents want public schools to teach all the scientific data, censoring none, but do not want any religious doctrine to be brought into science classrooms."



Definitions of the Creation Model and the Evolution Model

The scientific model of creation, in summary, includes the scientific evidence for a sudden creation of complex and diversified kinds of life, with systematic gaps persisting between different kinds and with genetic variation occurring within each kind since that time. The scientific model of evolution, in summary, includes the scientific evidence for a gradual emergence of present life kinds over aeons of time, with emergence of complex and diversified kinds of life from simpler kinds and ultimately from nonliving matter. The creation model questions vertical evolution, which is the emergence of complex from simple and change between kinds, but it does not challenge what is often called horizontal evolution or microevolution, which creationists call genetic variation or species or subspecies formation within created kinds. The following chart lists seven aspects of the scientific model of creation and of the scientific model of evolution:





The creation model includes the scientific evidence and the related inferences suggesting that:

The evolution model includes the scientific evidence and the related inferences suggesting that:



I. The universe and the Solar system were suddenly created.

I. The universe and the solar system emerged by naturalistic processes.



II. Life was suddenly created.

II. Life emerged from nonlife by naturalistic processes.



III. All present living kinds of animals and plants have remained fixed since creation, other than extinctions, and genetic variation in originally created kinds has only occurred within narrow limits.

III. All present kinds emerged from simpler earlier kinds, so that single-celled organisms evolved into invertebrates, then vertebrates, then amphibians, then reptiles, then mammals, then primates, including man.



IV. Mutation and natural selection are insufficient to have brought about any emergence of present living kinds from a simple primordial organism.

IV. Mutation and natural selection have brought about the emergence of present complex kinds from a simple primordial organism.



V. Man and apes have a separate ancestry.

V. Man and apes emerged from a common ancestor.



VI. The earth's geologic features appear to have been fashioned largely by rapid, catastrophic processes that affected the earth on a global and regional scale (catastrophism).

VI. The earth's geologic features were fashioned largely by slow, gradual processes, with infrequent catastrophic events restricted to a local scale (uniformitarianism).



VII. The inception of the earth and of living kinds may have been relatively recent.

VII. The inception of the earth and then of life must have occurred several billion years ago.



I. The Universe and the Solar System Were Suddenly Created.

The First Law of Thermodynamics states that the total quantity of matter and energy in the universe is constant. The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that matter and energy always tend to change from complex and ordered states to disordered states. Therefore the universe could not have created itself, but could not have existed forever, or it would have run down long ago. Thus the universe, including matter and energy, apparently must have been created. The "big-bang" theory of the origin of the universe contradicts much physical evidence and seemingly can only be accepted by faith.1 This was also the case with the past cosmogonies theories of evolutionists that have been discarded, such as Hoyle’s steady-state theory. The universe has "obvious manifestations of an ordered, structured plan or design." Similarly, the electron is materially inconceivable and yet it is so perfectly known through its effects," yet a "strange rationale makes some physicists accept the inconceivable electrons as real while refusing to accept the reality of a Designer." "The inconceivability of some ultimate issue (which will always lie outside scientific resolution) should not be allowed to rule out any theory that explains the interrelationship of observed data and is useful for prediction," in the words of Dr. Wernher von Braun, the renowned late physicist in the NASA space program.

II. Life Was Suddenly Created.

Life appears abruptly and in complex forms in the fossil record,2 and gaps appear systematically in the fossil record between various living kinds.3 These facts indicate that basic kinds of plants and animals were created. The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that things tend to go from order to disorder (entropy tends to increase) unless added energy is directed by a conversion mechanism (such as photosynthesis), whether a system is open or closed. Thus simple molecules and complex protein, DNA, and RNA molecules seemingly could not have evolved spontaneously and naturalistically into a living cell;4 such cells apparently were created. The laboratory experiments related to theories on the origin of life have not even remotely approached the synthesis of life from nonlife, and the extremely limited results have depended on laboratory conditions that are artificially imposed and extremely improbable.5 The extreme improbability of these conditions and the relatively insignificant results apparently show that life did not emerge by the process that evolutionists postulate.





"One example of the scientific evidence for creation is the sudden appearance of complex fossilized life in the fossil record, and the systematic gaps between fossilized kinds in that record. The most rational inference from this evidence seemingly is that life was created and did not evolve."



III. All Present Living Kinds of Animals and Plants Have Remained Fixed Since Creation, Other than Extinctions, and Genetic Variation in Originally Created Kinds Has Only Occurred within Narrow Limits.

Systematic gaps occur between kinds in the fossil record.6 None of the intermediate fossils that would be expected on the basis of the evolution model have been found between single celled organisms and invertebrates, between invertebrates and vertebrates, between fish and amphibians, between amphibians and reptiles, between reptiles and birds or mammals, or between "lower" mammals and primates.7 While evolutionists might assume that these intermediate forms existed at one time, none of the hundreds of millions of fossils found so far provide the missing links. The few suggested links such as Archoeopteryx and the horse series have been rendered questionable by more detailed data. Fossils and living organisms are readily subjected to the same criteria of classification. Thus present kinds of animals and plants apparently were created, as shown by the systematic fossil gaps and by the similarity of fossil forms to living forms. A kind may be defined as a generally interfertile group of organisms that possesses variant genes for a common set of traits but that does not interbreed with other groups of organisms under normal circumstances. Any evolutionary change between kinds (necessary for the emergence of complex from simple organisms) would require addition of entirely new traits to the common set and enormous expansion of the gene pool over time, and could not occur from mere ecologically adaptive variations of a given trait set (which the creation model recognizes).

IV. Mutation and Natural Selection Are Insufficient To Have Brought About Any Emergence of Present Living Kinds from a Simple Primordial Organism.

The mathematical probability that random mutation and natural selection ultimately produced complex living kinds from a simpler kind is infinitesimally small even after many billions of years.8 Thus mutation and natural selection apparently could not have brought about evolution of present living kinds from a simple first organism. Mutations are always harmful or at least nearly always harmful in an organism's natural environment.9 Thus the mutation process apparently could not have provided the postulated millions of beneficial mutations required for progressive evolution in the supposed five billion years from the origin of the earth until now, and in fact would have produced an overwhelming genetic load over hundreds of millions of years that would have caused degeneration and extinction. Natural selection is a tautologous concept (circular reasoning), because it simply requires the fittest organisms to leave the most offspring and at the same time it identifies the fittest organisms as those that leave the most offspring. Thus natural selection seemingly does not provide a testable explanation of how mutations would produce more fit organisms.10

V. Man and Apes Have a Separate Ancestry.

Although highly imaginative "transitional forms" between man and ape-like creatures have been constructed by evolutionists based on very fragmentary evidence, the fossil record actually documents the separate origin of primates in general,11 monkeys,12 apes,13 and men. In fact, Lord Zuckerman (not a creationist) states that there are no "fossil traces" of a transformation from an ape-like creature to man.14 The fossils of Neanderthal Man were once considered to represent a primitive sub-human (Homo neanderthalensis), but these "primitive" features are now known to have resulted from nutritional deficiencies and pathological conditions; he is now classified as fully human.15 Ramapithecus was once considered to be partially man-like, but is now known to be fully ape-like.16 Australopithecus, in the view of some leading evolutionists, was not intermediate between ape and man and did not walk upright.17 The strong bias of many evolutionists in seeking a link between apes and man is shown by the near-universal acceptance of two "missing links" that were later proved to be a fraud in the case of Piltdown Man (Eoanthropus) and a pig's tooth in the case of Nebraska Man (Hesperopithecus).18

VI. The Earth's Geologic Features Were Fashioned Largely by Rapid, Catastrophic Processes that Affected the Earth on a Global and Regional Scale (Catastrophism).

Catastrophic events have characterized the earth's history. Huge floods, massive asteroid collisions, large volcanic eruptions, devastating landslides, and intense earthquakes have left their marks on the earth. Catastrophic events appear to explain the formation of mountain ranges, deposition of thick sequences of sedimentary rocks with fossils, initiation of the glacial age, and extinction of dinosaurs and other animals. Catastrophism (catastrophic changes), rather than uniformitarianism (gradual changes), appears to be the best interpretation of a major portion of the earth's geology. Geologic data reflect catastrophic flooding. Evidences of rapid catastrophic water deposition include fossilized tree trunks that penetrate numerous sedimentary layers (such as at Joggins, Nova Scotia), widespread pebble and boulder layers (such as the Shinarump Conglomerate of the southwestern United States), fossilized logs in a single layer covering extensive areas (such as Petrified Forest National Park), and whole closed clams that were buried alive in mass graveyards in extensive sedimentary layers (such as at Glen Rose, Texas). Uniform processes such as normal river sedimentation, small volcanoes, slow erosion, and small earthquakes appear insufficient to explain large portions of the geologic record. Even the conventional uniformitarian geologists are beginning to yield to evidences of rapid and catastrophic processes.19

VII. The Inception of the Earth and of Living Kinds May Have Been Relatively Recent.

Radiometric dating methods (such as the uranium-lead and potassium-argon methods) depend on three assumptions: (a) that no decay product (lead or argon) was present initially or that the initial quantities can be accurately estimated, (b) that the decay system was closed through the years (so that radioactive material or product did not move in or out of the rock), and (c) that the decay rate was constant over time.20 Each of these assumptions may be questionable: (a) some nonradiogenic lead or argon was perhaps present initially;21 (b) the radioactive isotope (uranium or potassium isotopes) can perhaps migrate out of, and the decay product (lead or argon) can migrate into, many rocks over the years;22 and (c) the decay rate can perhaps change by neutrino bombardment and other causes.23 Numerous radiometric estimates have been hundreds of millions of years in excess of the true age. Thus ages estimated by the radiometric dating methods may very well be grossly in error. Alternate dating methods suggest much younger ages for the earth and life. Estimating by the rate of addition of helium to the atmosphere from radioactive decay, the age of the earth appears to be about 10,000 years, even allowing for moderate helium escape. Based on the present rate of the earth's cooling, the time required for the earth to have reached its present thermal structure seems to be only several tens of millions of years, even assuming that the earth was initially molten.24 Extrapolating the observed rate of apparently exponential decay of the earth's magnetic field, the age of the earth or life seemingly could not exceed 20,000 years.25 Thus the inception of the earth and the inception of life may have been relatively recent when all the evidence is considered.26



"There is scientific evidence for creation from cosmology, thermodynamics, paleontology, biology, mathematical probability, geology, and other sciences."
"There are many scientists in each field who conclude that the scientific data best support the creation model, not the evolution model."



References

1. Slusher, Harold S., The Origin of the Universe, San Diego: Institute for Creation Research (ICR), 1978.
2. E.g., Kay, Marshall & Colbert, Edwin H, Stratigraphy and Life History, New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1965, p, 102;
Simpson, George G., The Major Features of Evolution, New York: Columbia University Press, 1953, p 360: [Paleontologists recognize] that most new species, genera and families, and that nearly all categories above the level of families, appear in the record suddenly and are not led up to by known, gradual, completely continuous transitional sequences.
3. Note 6 infra.
4. E.g., Smith, Charles J. "Problems with Entropy in Biology," Biosystems, V.7, 1975, pp 259, 264. "The earth, moon, and sun constitute an essentialy closed thermodynamic system..." Simpson, George G., "Uniformitariarisrn," in Hecht, Max A. & Steeres, William C., eds., Essays in Evolution and Genetics, New York: Appleton-Century-Crofts, 1970, p. 43.
5. Gish, Duane T., Speculations and Experiments Related to the Origin of Life (A Critique), San Diego: ICR, 1972,
6. E.g., Simpson, George G., "The History of Life," in Tax, Sol, ed. Evolution after Darwin: The Evolution of Life, Chicago:Univ. of Chicago Press, 1960 pp. 117, 149:
Gaps among known orders, classes, and phyla are systematic and almost always large.
7. E.g., Kitts, David S., "Paleontology and Evolutionary Theory," Evolution V. 28 1974, pp.458, 467:
Evolution requires intermediate forms betvveen species and paleontology does not provide them. For examples of the lack of transitional fossils, Ommaney, F. D. The Fishes, New York: Time Life, Inc., 1964, p 60 (invertebrates to vertebrates); Romer, Alfred S., Vertebrate Paleontology, Chicago Univ. of Chicago Press, 31 ed., 1966, p.36 (vertebrate fish to amphibians) Swinton, W.E., Biology and Comparative Physiology of Birds, Marshall, A.J., ed., New York Academic Press, V.1, 1960, p.1 (reptiles to birds); Simpson, George G., Tempo and Mode in Evolution, New York: Columbia Univ., Press. 1944, p.l05 (reptiles to mammals); Simons, E.L., Annals N.Y. Acad. Science, V.167, 1969, p.319 (mammals to primates).
8. E.g., Eden, Murray. "Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory," in Moorhead, Paul S. & Kaplan, Martin M., eds., Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, Philadelphia: Wistar Inst. Press, 1967, p,109:
It is our contention that if 'random' is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilisticpoint of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws...
9. E.g., Martin, C.P., "A Non-Geneticist looks at Evolution," American Scientist, V. 41, 1954, p. 100
10. E.g., Popper, Karl, Objective Knowledge, Oxford: Clarendon Press 1975 p. 242
11. E.g., Kelso, A.J., Physical Anthropology, 2nd ed., Philadelphia, J.B. Lippincott, 1974. p 142
12. E.g., Ibid., pp.150,151
13. E.g., Simons, E.L., Annals N.Y. Acad. Science. V.102, 1962, p.293, Simons, E.L., "The Early Relatives of Man," Scientfic American, V.211, July 1964 p 50
14. E.g., Zuckerman, Sir Solly, Beyond the Ivory Tower, New York, Taplinger Pub. Co., 1970, p.64.
15. E.q., Ivanhoe, Francis, "Was Virchow Right about Neandert[h]al?", Nature V. 227, 1970, p. 577
16. E.g., Zuckerman, pp. 75-94; Eckhardt, Robert B., "Population Genetics and Human Origins", Scientific American, V.226, 1972, pp.94,101.
17. E.g., Oxnard, Charles E., "Human Fossils: New Views of Old Bones," American Biology Teacher, V.41, 1979, p.264.
18. E.g., Straus, William L., "The Great Piltdown Hoax," Science, V.119, 1954, p.265 (Piltdown Man); Gregory, William K., "Hesperopithecus Apparently Not an Ape Nor a Man," Science, V.66,1927, p. 579 (Nebraska Man).
19. E.g., Bhattacharyya, A., Sarkar, S. & Chanda, S.K., "Storm Deposits in the Late Proterozoic Lower Bhander Sandstone of ... India," Journal of Sedimentary Petrology. V.50,1980, p. 1327:
Until recently, noncatastrophic uniformitarianism had dominated sedimentologic thought reflecting that sediment formation and dispersal owe their genesis chiefly to the operation of day-to-day geologic events. As a result, catastrophic events, e.g.. storms, earthquakes, etc., have been denied their rightful place in ancient and recent sedimentary records. Of late, however, there has been a welcome rejuvenation of [the] concept of catastrophism in geologic thought.
J. Harlan Bretz recently stated, on receiving the Penrose Medal (the highest geology award in America), "Perhaps, I can be credited with reviving and demystifying legendary Catastrophism and challenging a too rigorous Uniformitarianism." Geological Society of America, "GSA Medals and Awards," GSA News & Information, V. 2, 1980, p.40.
20. E.g., Stansfield, Williarn D., The Science of Evolution, New York: MacMillan Publishing Co., 1977, pp. 83-84; Faul, Henry, Ages of Rocks, Planets and Stars, New York: McGraw-Hill Co., 1966, pp. 19-20, 41-49. See generally Slusher, Harold S., Critique of Radiometnic Dating, San Diego: ICR, 1973.
21. E.g., Kerkut, G.A., Implications of Evolution, New York: Pergamon Press, 1960, pp.138,139.
22. E.g., Faul, p.61.
23. E.g., Jueneman, Frederick, "Scientific Speculation." Industrial Research, Sept.1972, p.15.
24. Slusher, Harold S. & Gamwell, Thomas P., The Age of the Earth, San Diego: ICR, 1978.
25. Barnes, Thomas G., Origin and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic Field, San Diego: ICR, 1973.
26. Slusher, Harold S., Age of the Cosmos, San Diego: ICR, 1980; Slusher, Harold S. & Duursma, Stephen J., The Age of the Solar System, San Diego: ICR, 1978.





"There are text materials and teacher handbooks for public schools that have been prepared for a fair presentation of the scientific evidences for both the creation model and the evolution model. There are also seminars and audiovisuals for training teachers to offer both models of origins."



The Authors:

*Dr. Gish earned his Ph.D. from the University of California at Berkeley in Biochernistry. He has worked as a research biochemist with Cornell University Medical College, the Virus Laboratory, University of California - Berkeley, and The Upjohn Co. Dr. Gish collaborated with one Nobel Prize recipient in elucidating the chemical structure of the protein of tobacco mosaic virus, and with another Nobel Prize winner in synthesis of one of the hormones of the pituitary gland. He presently is Vice President of the Institute for Creation Research.

**Other staff scientists at ICR who helped prepare this summary include Dr. Henry M. Morris, (PhD.), University of Minnesota, Hydraulics; Dr. Kenneth B. Cumming (Ph.D.), Harvard University, Biology; Dr. Gary E. Parker (Ph.D.), Ball State University. Biology; Dr. Theodore W. Rybka (Ph.D.), University of Oklahoma, Physics; and Dr. Harold S. Slusher (M.S.), University of Oklahoma, Geophysics.

***Dr. Bliss earned his Ed.D. from the University of Sarasota in Science Education, with a cognate emphasis in curriculum, instruction, and evaluation in science education. He wrote his dissertation on teaching the two-model approach (comparing evolution-science and creation-science) in public schools. He taught high-school physics, chemistry, and biology for many years and was the Director of Science Education for the large public school district in Racine, Wisconsin. He served as the science consultant for Educational Consulting Associates and for several major publishers of science textbooks, as well as for the University of Wisconsin Research and Development film series. He has written textbook materials for public school instruction in the creation model and the evolution noodel.

****Mr. Bird earned his J.D. from Yale Law School with numerous studies in Constitutional Law, publishing legal articles in the Yale Law Journal and the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy on the constitutionality of public schools teaching the scientific evidence for creation along with that for evolution. He was an Editor of the Yale Law Journal, and was the recipient of the Egger Prize of Yale Law School for his article published there.


Summary of Scientific Evidence for Creation (Part I & II)
 
Since having a stroke, I don't get to do what I use to do, so I read a lot and watch videos and support my beloved Arizona Cardinals. Oh and ride the mountain bike daily whether I need it or not.

For your information ,someone offering an explanation is not debunking a problem for your theory. It's an opinion and nothing more it sure was not proven wrong by evidence. Do you expect evolutionists to just dismiss their theory that only natural processes are responsible for all living things and accept what a creationist said ? get real, all along evolutionist have looked the other way when intelligence is introduced to the theory. Even though they feel that there were no way a random chance non-intelligent process created some of the things observed.

Will you explain how the Bacterium Flagellum Motor evolved ?

While you're at it ,can you explain how the giraffes neck,blood vessels that open and close so the giraffe don't blow it's brains out when it bends to get a drink of water,and the sponge in the brain that holds oxygenated blood so when the giraffe sunddenly raises his head he don't pass out and become a meal to predators,how did they all evolve over time ?

If none of those abilities were present the giraffe would no longer be with us but be extinct.

So, you would really rather relegate your god to the god of gaps in our knowledge than believe he created living things through the amazing process of evolution?

No there are many things not known man is no more close to figuring out how God did it and we won't until he reveals it.

God is the creator. Are you saying we can't hold the view that God did it because we don't have all the answers ?

Ummm ... did you read what I wrote? I never said anything about god didn't do anything. I was saying that your opinion of god isn't very great if he only resides in the gaps in our knowledge. I think people who believe god created the spark of life and then set evolution into motion have a greater opinion of god, personally.
 
This is not a poor answer unless you are not understanding. Evolution involves natural selection. There is no selective pressure for bacteria to evolve into anything else other than bacteria. Does that clear things up for you?

Really ? what are the mechanisms working at removing mistakes in DNA ? what would stop harmful mutations spreading through the population making us go extinct ?

Do you really understand how it works or are you just forgetting important issues dealing with life ?

Wait a minute, I have to tell you I do not think you were being honest with me earlier. I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you had no understanding of natural selection because I have friends who were in my undergrad biology program that went on to become physicians and no longer seem to understand natural selection. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you did not understand that it is more than genetics that shows we are closely related to other primates, even though the variations and similarities in proteins and structures is the basis for molecular biology because maybe you went on to do other things and it has been a long time. This just crosses the line. I have never met anyone who passed freshman year as a biology major that does not know what mechanism removes mistakes from DNA. DNA polymerase - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Explain how it was debunked ?


By showing that the parts are used alone and in different conformations for other things. If it was irreducibly complex that would be impossible.

You're not answering how a non-intelligent non-thinking process would think to create such molecular motors. If they have more then one function So what ! how did they come about through a natural process ?

No one knows the exact evolution of the flagella, but it is not anymore complex than a lot of molecular machines whose evolutionary history has been elucidated. I was actually talking about Behe's argument of irreducible complexity because I thought that was what you were talking about. If you were not, I apologize for going in a different direction.
 
Really ?creationist that hold degrees in molecular biology and genetics ,and chemistry are not qualified to disagree with evolutionist ?

They are more qualified than the average person, but creation scientists are always disingenuous in their experimentation. Also, you do know that most scientists who believe in creation also agree with the theory of evolution. That is why in a country were >90% believe in a god 99% of biologists agree with the theory of evolution

Really / because there is plenty of evidence of evolutionist being disingenuous with their explanations and even faking evidence,i'm sure you remember the pigs tooth ? that was portayed as a nearest ancestor ?

Oh please this is just another silly reason on your part.

No, there is no more evidence of evolutionists being disingenuous than in there is in the people in general. Nebraska man was not a deliberate hoax and it was also not by an evolutionists but a geologist/paleontologist. Creation scientists are always disingenuous in their experimentation. Also, could you tell me how many wrongs exactly it takes to make a right because I can never figure it out.
 
Why does chirality pose a problem to evolution ?
I have been doing research and have unanswered questions involving the Idea of evolution as opposed to Intelligent design. Am I missing something?
In our bodies, proteins and DNA possess a unique 3-dimensional shape, and it is because of this 3D shape that the biochemical processes within our bodies work as they do. It is chirality that provides the unique shape for proteins and DNA, and without chirality, the biochemical processes in our bodies would not do their job. In our body, every single amino acid of every protein is found with the same left-handed chirality. Although Miller and Urey formed amino acids in their experiments, all the amino acids that formed lacked chirality.
As I said before,it is a universally accepted fact of chemistry that chirality cannot be created in chemical molecules by a random process.
Another problem with Chirality is that homochiral biological substances racemize in time. This is the basis of amino acid racemization dating method. This method is not very reliable because of the variables such as temperature and pH and the particular amino acid. Racemization is a big problem during peptide synthesis and hydrolysis for it shows that the tendency of undirected chemistry is towards death, not life. This presents enormous problems for chemical evolution ideas as well.
This is why it is such a problem to explain away. Here is a site for some further explantion of my facts.

Now explain how a random process can create chirality?

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/archaeology/

Why does chirality pose a problem to evolution ? - Yahoo! Answers

Are catalysts random? Obviously chirality is not because you see it in so many different things all over the earth and the universe. We know that magnets and light can create chirality. So the fact that it exists is not surprising, since lights and magnets are known to exist. When I first read the argument about chirality, I thought it was possible that there were self replicating molecules with either both chiralities or only left handed or only right handed and the left handed was selected for. Makes sense, not a problem. Then I read that in 1998 3 chemists discovered homochirality catalysts accidentally and won a Nobel prize, obviously because that used to be a problem in chemistry and is no longer. Even more recently it has been discovered that some snRNAs and snRNPs act as homochirality catalysts in animals. Chiral n,n'-dioxides: new ligands and organocataly... [Acc Chem Res. 2011] - PubMed result , Enantioselective catalysis with homochiral metal, ScienceDirect - Tetrahedron: Asymmetry : Selfcondensation of 2-methylpropanal with homochiral BINOL catalysts as a model asymmetric aldol–Tishchenko reaction, also some molecules act as their own catalyst to prevent the production of their mirror image http://www.pnas.org/content/101/16/5732.full.pdf Here is one that is easy to read it is just a quip about chemical catalysts Imperial College London - How left-handed amino acids got ahead: a demonstration of the evolution of biological homochirality in the lab These experiments more agree with my original thought Faculty Page, I cannot link the newer papers about RNA catalysts even the abstracts are not free. I could also find you 1000s of papers on why DNA and RNA are in the orientation that they are, which could also according to chemists drive the other molecules to be the same handedness. Mostly it is because nucleotides can self assemble faster in that orientation. Now, see chirality is not at all the problem it was made out to be, it was just a gap in our knowledge and understanding which is being rigorously filled. Can we move on please?

How does this deal with chirality in humans ? :lol:

What does chirality do ?

It definitely deals with the argument you posted. Also, since I am sure you probably don't know this, humans have RNA.
 
Will you explain how the Bacterium Flagellum Motor evolved ?

While you're at it ,can you explain how the giraffes neck,blood vessels that open and close so the giraffe don't blow it's brains out when it bends to get a drink of water,and the sponge in the brain that holds oxygenated blood so when the giraffe sunddenly raises his head he don't pass out and become a meal to predators,how did they all evolve over time ?

If none of those abilities were present the giraffe would no longer be with us but be extinct.

Oh created. I wiped your face across this entire forum on these topics last time. I come back to find you're playing the same games with someone else now? Here's let's summarize where we left off.

  • You claimed evolution is made up.
  • I provided supporting evidence.
  • You ignored supporting evidence.
  • You made the claim that evolution was completely debunked because you personally don't understand certain traits found in organisms.
  • I pointed out that your lack of education and understanding on the topic in no way proves the topic wrong or proves your backwoods ideas correct.
  • You claimed, several times, that I couldn't reliably describe how the universe began because I wasn't there.
  • I reiterated several times that the origins of the universe have nothing to do with evolution. This was a very difficult concept for you to grasp.
  • You once again made the claim evolution is made up.
  • I provided more supporting evidence.
  • You retreated to the ignorant and unsupported claim of arbitrarily splitting the topic into "macro" and "micro" which are terms that have no real definition aside from "all evidence for evolution can't count as macroevolution" so you could once again claim the evidence doesn't count. Circular reasoning works wonders that way.
  • I provided evidence to macroevolution.
  • You ran away.

Shall we restart this game again, my ignorant acquaintance?

I have debated this issue to nauseum,you will say this,and I will say that. In truth you won't present anything new.

You believe a non-intelligent non-thinking process called random chance is creator of life. I believe intelligence= God was the creator of all life. So I will prove life is a product of intelligence then you can give your rebuttal.


1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that
occurs naturally, you’ve toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

Information Theory and DNA vs. Atheists « Cosmic Fingerprints


If you can't provide an adequate answer to this, I win God exist and you lose.

DNA, duh
 
How can you say a mutation can add information when it results from a loss of the origional information ? All mutations are an error,it's rearranged information.

If stuff only gets rearranged, how is it lost then, if it can't be gained?

It doesn't matter, mutations can cause both loss of information and gain. This has been observed, it is a fact of modern biology.

Because mutations come at a loss of a function.

Yes, a mutation can cause a change in the information because the information is rearranged, but it's rare for that rearranged information to be beneficial to the organism.

I already presented the " NINE CONDITIONS FOR MUTATION FIXATION " and each and everyone of these must be present.

So your theory fails before it starts.

Well, I guess everyone can just forget about cancer since you say mutations only lead to a loss of function. Also, I already told you your idea about fixation is just plain wrong. It has to do with one allele being available to a species when there used to be 2 or more. Let us hope at least that bad mutations do not become fixed in our species or we would all be in trouble.
 
So, you would really rather relegate your god to the god of gaps in our knowledge than believe he created living things through the amazing process of evolution?

No there are many things not known man is no more close to figuring out how God did it and we won't until he reveals it.

God is the creator. Are you saying we can't hold the view that God did it because we don't have all the answers ?

Ummm ... did you read what I wrote? I never said anything about god didn't do anything. I was saying that your opinion of god isn't very great if he only resides in the gaps in our knowledge. I think people who believe god created the spark of life and then set evolution into motion have a greater opinion of god, personally.

Let me give you my opinion ,each family of organisms are diverse because the information was already present. Evolution did not happen and it was not sparked by the creator. The creator created each family and the origional breed of each family passed on the genetic information for the other breeds we see and the ones that went extinct.
 
Really ? what are the mechanisms working at removing mistakes in DNA ? what would stop harmful mutations spreading through the population making us go extinct ?

Do you really understand how it works or are you just forgetting important issues dealing with life ?

Wait a minute, I have to tell you I do not think you were being honest with me earlier. I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you had no understanding of natural selection because I have friends who were in my undergrad biology program that went on to become physicians and no longer seem to understand natural selection. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you did not understand that it is more than genetics that shows we are closely related to other primates, even though the variations and similarities in proteins and structures is the basis for molecular biology because maybe you went on to do other things and it has been a long time. This just crosses the line. I have never met anyone who passed freshman year as a biology major that does not know what mechanism removes mistakes from DNA. DNA polymerase - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I did know, I was making the point as to why most mutations can't spread through the population and they're removed before you get mutation fixation.
 
They are more qualified than the average person, but creation scientists are always disingenuous in their experimentation. Also, you do know that most scientists who believe in creation also agree with the theory of evolution. That is why in a country were >90% believe in a god 99% of biologists agree with the theory of evolution

Really / because there is plenty of evidence of evolutionist being disingenuous with their explanations and even faking evidence,i'm sure you remember the pigs tooth ? that was portayed as a nearest ancestor ?

Oh please this is just another silly reason on your part.

No, there is no more evidence of evolutionists being disingenuous than in there is in the people in general. Nebraska man was not a deliberate hoax and it was also not by an evolutionists but a geologist/paleontologist. Creation scientists are always disingenuous in their experimentation. Also, could you tell me how many wrongs exactly it takes to make a right because I can never figure it out.

We agree on something thank God. :eusa_angel:
 
Are catalysts random? Obviously chirality is not because you see it in so many different things all over the earth and the universe. We know that magnets and light can create chirality. So the fact that it exists is not surprising, since lights and magnets are known to exist. When I first read the argument about chirality, I thought it was possible that there were self replicating molecules with either both chiralities or only left handed or only right handed and the left handed was selected for. Makes sense, not a problem. Then I read that in 1998 3 chemists discovered homochirality catalysts accidentally and won a Nobel prize, obviously because that used to be a problem in chemistry and is no longer. Even more recently it has been discovered that some snRNAs and snRNPs act as homochirality catalysts in animals. Chiral n,n'-dioxides: new ligands and organocataly... [Acc Chem Res. 2011] - PubMed result , Enantioselective catalysis with homochiral metal, ScienceDirect - Tetrahedron: Asymmetry : Selfcondensation of 2-methylpropanal with homochiral BINOL catalysts as a model asymmetric aldol–Tishchenko reaction, also some molecules act as their own catalyst to prevent the production of their mirror image http://www.pnas.org/content/101/16/5732.full.pdf Here is one that is easy to read it is just a quip about chemical catalysts Imperial College London - How left-handed amino acids got ahead: a demonstration of the evolution of biological homochirality in the lab These experiments more agree with my original thought Faculty Page, I cannot link the newer papers about RNA catalysts even the abstracts are not free. I could also find you 1000s of papers on why DNA and RNA are in the orientation that they are, which could also according to chemists drive the other molecules to be the same handedness. Mostly it is because nucleotides can self assemble faster in that orientation. Now, see chirality is not at all the problem it was made out to be, it was just a gap in our knowledge and understanding which is being rigorously filled. Can we move on please?

How does this deal with chirality in humans ? :lol:

What does chirality do ?

It definitely deals with the argument you posted. Also, since I am sure you probably don't know this, humans have RNA.

Yes they do I take RNA and DNA pills since the stroke. :lol:
 
Oh created. I wiped your face across this entire forum on these topics last time. I come back to find you're playing the same games with someone else now? Here's let's summarize where we left off.

  • You claimed evolution is made up.
  • I provided supporting evidence.
  • You ignored supporting evidence.
  • You made the claim that evolution was completely debunked because you personally don't understand certain traits found in organisms.
  • I pointed out that your lack of education and understanding on the topic in no way proves the topic wrong or proves your backwoods ideas correct.
  • You claimed, several times, that I couldn't reliably describe how the universe began because I wasn't there.
  • I reiterated several times that the origins of the universe have nothing to do with evolution. This was a very difficult concept for you to grasp.
  • You once again made the claim evolution is made up.
  • I provided more supporting evidence.
  • You retreated to the ignorant and unsupported claim of arbitrarily splitting the topic into "macro" and "micro" which are terms that have no real definition aside from "all evidence for evolution can't count as macroevolution" so you could once again claim the evidence doesn't count. Circular reasoning works wonders that way.
  • I provided evidence to macroevolution.
  • You ran away.

Shall we restart this game again, my ignorant acquaintance?

I have debated this issue to nauseum,you will say this,and I will say that. In truth you won't present anything new.

You believe a non-intelligent non-thinking process called random chance is creator of life. I believe intelligence= God was the creator of all life. So I will prove life is a product of intelligence then you can give your rebuttal.


1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that
occurs naturally, you’ve toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Perry Marshall

Information Theory and DNA vs. Atheists « Cosmic Fingerprints


If you can't provide an adequate answer to this, I win God exist and you lose.

DNA, duh

Dna has a code. Thank you for proving intelligence had everything to do with creating life.
 
If stuff only gets rearranged, how is it lost then, if it can't be gained?

It doesn't matter, mutations can cause both loss of information and gain. This has been observed, it is a fact of modern biology.

Because mutations come at a loss of a function.

Yes, a mutation can cause a change in the information because the information is rearranged, but it's rare for that rearranged information to be beneficial to the organism.

I already presented the " NINE CONDITIONS FOR MUTATION FIXATION " and each and everyone of these must be present.

So your theory fails before it starts.

Well, I guess everyone can just forget about cancer since you say mutations only lead to a loss of function. Also, I already told you your idea about fixation is just plain wrong. It has to do with one allele being available to a species when there used to be 2 or more. Let us hope at least that bad mutations do not become fixed in our species or we would all be in trouble.

You're making my point for me thank you. There are so many things working against any mutation of becoming a part of the genepool that is another reason why I believe the information for all the diversity we see was already in the first breed of eacxh family, and it was passed on to the offspring.
 
Maybe I should quit using slight sarcasm and speaking in the third person so you do not misunderstand me.
 
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