CDZ Was Abe Lincoln racist?

[Syriusly]

Please define what you are calling "Jim Crow".

Please utilize Google and look it up.

 

[rightwinger]

For 1860s America....no he wasn't

“My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery.”
Abe Lincoln

“And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
-Abe Lincoln

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races.”
-Abe Lincoln

For 1860s America, just believing slavery was wrong was a major social leap.......equality took another 100 years

 

[Bobby1250]

Please utilize Google and look it up.

I get it. You can accuse but you can't or won't support your accusation.

 

[Pogo]

What do you guys think? was Lincoln really an actual racist even though he freed the slaves as history tells us leave your thoughts below.

Oh absolutely he was a racist.

And so were almost everyone of the period- along with virtually all of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

Is racist a relative term then?
Was Lincoln (or anyone) a "racist" if they simply reflected the prevailing belief of the time in which they lived? If so, what term do we give the postwar vigilante terrorist groups like the White League and the KKK?

If racist is a relative term, relative to one's contemporary mores, does that make the Abolitionists of the time "extremists"? If it does, does that make the prevailing contemporary belief that yes, all men really are created equal an extremist view? Are we then all extremists? And if we are therefore all extremists, how do we explain that we outnumber our contemporary racists?

Even most ardent abolitionists were racists by our standards.

Please -- explain.
.

Sure- most European Americans thought that all other 'races' were inferior to the Europeans. Most European Americans thought that 'negroes' were particularly inferior. Even when they were appalled by slavery. Even if they believed that other races should be allowed to vote.

The abolitionists could be considered 'less racist' in that they believed that we should not have slavery even of humans that they considered to be inferior.

Of course racist is a relative term- there are racists who argue that African Americans are not even the same species as European Americans- there is a whole range of racism.

None of which detracts from the accomplishments of our Founding Fathers, or of the abolitionists or of Abraham Lincoln.

And how do you conclude that Abolitionists -- as if they too are yet another monolith, but for the sake of the argument we stipulate --- also agreed that Africans were an inferior race? Why would anyone holding that belief be advocating abolition of enslaving Africans? That was after all the whole rationalization for doing it.

Howzat work?

 

[Desperado]

5 Quotes by Lincoln, you decide if he was racist.
1.There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races ... A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas ...

2. In the language of Mr. Jefferson, uttered many years ago, "It is still in our power to direct the process of emancipation, and deportation, peaceably, and in such slow degrees, as that the evil will wear off insensibly; and in their places be, pari passu [on an equal basis], filled up by free white laborers."

3. I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.

4. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.

5. Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.

Yet Blacks have a problem with Jefferson but honor old Abe

 

[Asclepias]

“Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute ta threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.”
-Abe Lincoln

Abe could have been the head of the KKK even back then.

Interesting quote- and maybe even real- but I can't find it referenced except in blogs. Got a source to show that Lincoln said that? I mean something other than a blog?

Because I looked here
Abraham Lincoln Online Search Engine
bastard is not in any of Lincoln's quotes here.

Thanks. Upon researching further that specific quote is from Reverend James Mitchell. This is the guy Lincoln charged with relocating freed slaves by deporting them.

 

[Syriusly]

What do you guys think? was Lincoln really an actual racist even though he freed the slaves as history tells us leave your thoughts below.

Oh absolutely he was a racist.

And so were almost everyone of the period- along with virtually all of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

Is racist a relative term then?
Was Lincoln (or anyone) a "racist" if they simply reflected the prevailing belief of the time in which they lived? If so, what term do we give the postwar vigilante terrorist groups like the White League and the KKK?

If racist is a relative term, relative to one's contemporary mores, does that make the Abolitionists of the time "extremists"? If it does, does that make the prevailing contemporary belief that yes, all men really are created equal an extremist view? Are we then all extremists? And if we are therefore all extremists, how do we explain that we outnumber our contemporary racists?

Even most ardent abolitionists were racists by our standards.

Please -- explain.
.

Sure- most European Americans thought that all other 'races' were inferior to the Europeans. Most European Americans thought that 'negroes' were particularly inferior. Even when they were appalled by slavery. Even if they believed that other races should be allowed to vote.

The abolitionists could be considered 'less racist' in that they believed that we should not have slavery even of humans that they considered to be inferior.

Of course racist is a relative term- there are racists who argue that African Americans are not even the same species as European Americans- there is a whole range of racism.

None of which detracts from the accomplishments of our Founding Fathers, or of the abolitionists or of Abraham Lincoln.

And how do you conclude that Abolitionists -- as if they too are yet another monolith, but for the sake of the argument we stipulate --- also agreed that Africans were an inferior race? Why would anyone holding that belief be advocating abolition of enslaving Africans? That was after all the whole rationalization for doing it.

Howzat work?

I really don't feel like looking it up right now- but if you are interested read up on what some of the abolitionists said about 'negroes'

And I don't consider all abolitionists to be the same- but again by our standards pretty much everyone in 1860 America- and the world would be considered to be a racist.

Just as most would be considered to be homophobic, anti-semitic, mysogynistic, xenophobes by today standards.

 

[Pogo]

Nah, the jews didn't create the KKK until after the Civil War had ended.

Hey Bobby, welcome to the site.
With that out of the way, I suspect you're full of shit.

The Klan was founded by (Capt.) John C. Lester, (Capt.) John B. Kennedy, James R. Crowe, Frank O. McCord, Richard R. Reed, and J. Calvin Jones, six Confederate war veterans. Pulaski Tennessee, Christmas Day 1865. As a joke.

Your evidence of claim to know their religious affiliations is where?

 

[Syriusly]

5 Quotes by Lincoln, you decide if he was racist.
1.There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races ... A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas ...

2. In the language of Mr. Jefferson, uttered many years ago, "It is still in our power to direct the process of emancipation, and deportation, peaceably, and in such slow degrees, as that the evil will wear off insensibly; and in their places be, pari passu [on an equal basis], filled up by free white laborers."

3. I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.

4. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.

5. Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.

Yet Blacks have a problem with Jefferson but honor old Abe

Link to source please. In particular to #5.

 

[Pogo]

What do you guys think? was Lincoln really an actual racist even though he freed the slaves as history tells us leave your thoughts below.

Oh absolutely he was a racist.

And so were almost everyone of the period- along with virtually all of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

Is racist a relative term then?
Was Lincoln (or anyone) a "racist" if they simply reflected the prevailing belief of the time in which they lived? If so, what term do we give the postwar vigilante terrorist groups like the White League and the KKK?

If racist is a relative term, relative to one's contemporary mores, does that make the Abolitionists of the time "extremists"? If it does, does that make the prevailing contemporary belief that yes, all men really are created equal an extremist view? Are we then all extremists? And if we are therefore all extremists, how do we explain that we outnumber our contemporary racists?

Even most ardent abolitionists were racists by our standards.

Please -- explain.
.

Sure- most European Americans thought that all other 'races' were inferior to the Europeans. Most European Americans thought that 'negroes' were particularly inferior. Even when they were appalled by slavery. Even if they believed that other races should be allowed to vote.

The abolitionists could be considered 'less racist' in that they believed that we should not have slavery even of humans that they considered to be inferior.

Of course racist is a relative term- there are racists who argue that African Americans are not even the same species as European Americans- there is a whole range of racism.

None of which detracts from the accomplishments of our Founding Fathers, or of the abolitionists or of Abraham Lincoln.

And how do you conclude that Abolitionists -- as if they too are yet another monolith, but for the sake of the argument we stipulate --- also agreed that Africans were an inferior race? Why would anyone holding that belief be advocating abolition of enslaving Africans? That was after all the whole rationalization for doing it.

Howzat work?

I really don't feel like looking it up right now- but if you are interested read up on what some of the abolitionists said about 'negroes'

And I don't consider all abolitionists to be the same- but again by our standards pretty much everyone in 1860 America- and the world would be considered to be a racist.

Just as most would be considered to be homophobic, anti-semitic, mysogynistic, xenophobes by today standards.

AH, I see, one "doesn't feel like looking that up". Isn't that convincing, yessiree Bob.
I've gotta remember that one. What a great argument. This has been nothing if not edumacational.

 

[Syriusly]

“Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute ta threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.”
-Abe Lincoln

Abe could have been the head of the KKK even back then.

Interesting quote- and maybe even real- but I can't find it referenced except in blogs. Got a source to show that Lincoln said that? I mean something other than a blog?

Because I looked here
Abraham Lincoln Online Search Engine
bastard is not in any of Lincoln's quotes here.

Thanks. Upon researching further that specific quote is from Reverend James Mitchell. This is the guy Lincoln charged with relocating freed slaves by deporting them.

 

[Syriusly]

Oh absolutely he was a racist.

And so were almost everyone of the period- along with virtually all of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

Is racist a relative term then?
Was Lincoln (or anyone) a "racist" if they simply reflected the prevailing belief of the time in which they lived? If so, what term do we give the postwar vigilante terrorist groups like the White League and the KKK?

If racist is a relative term, relative to one's contemporary mores, does that make the Abolitionists of the time "extremists"? If it does, does that make the prevailing contemporary belief that yes, all men really are created equal an extremist view? Are we then all extremists? And if we are therefore all extremists, how do we explain that we outnumber our contemporary racists?

Even most ardent abolitionists were racists by our standards.

Please -- explain.
.

Sure- most European Americans thought that all other 'races' were inferior to the Europeans. Most European Americans thought that 'negroes' were particularly inferior. Even when they were appalled by slavery. Even if they believed that other races should be allowed to vote.

The abolitionists could be considered 'less racist' in that they believed that we should not have slavery even of humans that they considered to be inferior.

Of course racist is a relative term- there are racists who argue that African Americans are not even the same species as European Americans- there is a whole range of racism.

None of which detracts from the accomplishments of our Founding Fathers, or of the abolitionists or of Abraham Lincoln.

And how do you conclude that Abolitionists -- as if they too are yet another monolith, but for the sake of the argument we stipulate --- also agreed that Africans were an inferior race? Why would anyone holding that belief be advocating abolition of enslaving Africans? That was after all the whole rationalization for doing it.

Howzat work?

I really don't feel like looking it up right now- but if you are interested read up on what some of the abolitionists said about 'negroes'

And I don't consider all abolitionists to be the same- but again by our standards pretty much everyone in 1860 America- and the world would be considered to be a racist.

Just as most would be considered to be homophobic, anti-semitic, mysogynistic, xenophobes by today standards.

AH, I see, one "doesn't feel like looking that up". Isn't that convincing, yessiree Bob.
I've gotta remember that one. What a great argument. This has been nothing if not edumacational.

Feel free to prove me wrong. So far you haven't offered anything.

 

[Pogo]

For 1860s America....no he wasn't

“My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery.”
Abe Lincoln

“And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
-Abe Lincoln

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races.”
-Abe Lincoln

For 1860s America, just believing slavery was wrong was a major social leap.......equality took another 100 years

And 150 years later, still ain't done. A few minutes on this board demonstrates that.

 

[Pogo]

Is racist a relative term then?
Was Lincoln (or anyone) a "racist" if they simply reflected the prevailing belief of the time in which they lived? If so, what term do we give the postwar vigilante terrorist groups like the White League and the KKK?

If racist is a relative term, relative to one's contemporary mores, does that make the Abolitionists of the time "extremists"? If it does, does that make the prevailing contemporary belief that yes, all men really are created equal an extremist view? Are we then all extremists? And if we are therefore all extremists, how do we explain that we outnumber our contemporary racists?

Please -- explain.
.

Sure- most European Americans thought that all other 'races' were inferior to the Europeans. Most European Americans thought that 'negroes' were particularly inferior. Even when they were appalled by slavery. Even if they believed that other races should be allowed to vote.

The abolitionists could be considered 'less racist' in that they believed that we should not have slavery even of humans that they considered to be inferior.

Of course racist is a relative term- there are racists who argue that African Americans are not even the same species as European Americans- there is a whole range of racism.

None of which detracts from the accomplishments of our Founding Fathers, or of the abolitionists or of Abraham Lincoln.

And how do you conclude that Abolitionists -- as if they too are yet another monolith, but for the sake of the argument we stipulate --- also agreed that Africans were an inferior race? Why would anyone holding that belief be advocating abolition of enslaving Africans? That was after all the whole rationalization for doing it.

Howzat work?

I really don't feel like looking it up right now- but if you are interested read up on what some of the abolitionists said about 'negroes'

And I don't consider all abolitionists to be the same- but again by our standards pretty much everyone in 1860 America- and the world would be considered to be a racist.

Just as most would be considered to be homophobic, anti-semitic, mysogynistic, xenophobes by today standards.

AH, I see, one "doesn't feel like looking that up". Isn't that convincing, yessiree Bob.
I've gotta remember that one. What a great argument. This has been nothing if not edumacational.

Feel free to prove me wrong. So far you haven't offered anything.

It's uh...... NOT MY ASSERTION TO DOCUMENT.

Think about it.

 

[Agit8r]

Historians generally agree that he was:

"Abraham Lincoln was not, in the fullest sense of the word, either our man or our model. In his interests, in his associations, in his habits of thought, and in his prejudices, he was a white man. He was preeminently the white man’s President, entirely devoted to the welfare of white men. He was ready and willing at any time during the first years of his administration to deny, postpone, and sacrifice the rights of humanity in the colored people to promote the welfare of the white people of this country."
-- Frederick Douglass; from Oration in Memory of Abraham Lincoln (1876)

 

[Desperado]

5 Quotes by Lincoln, you decide if he was racist.
1.There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races ... A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas ...

2. In the language of Mr. Jefferson, uttered many years ago, "It is still in our power to direct the process of emancipation, and deportation, peaceably, and in such slow degrees, as that the evil will wear off insensibly; and in their places be, pari passu [on an equal basis], filled up by free white laborers."

3. I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.

4. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.

5. Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.

Yet Blacks have a problem with Jefferson but honor old Abe

Link to source please. In particular to #5.

Multiple Sources, Google is your friend:
Google

 

[rightwinger]

Abraham Lincoln Quotes About Slavery Including Sources

 

[Syriusly]

Sure- most European Americans thought that all other 'races' were inferior to the Europeans. Most European Americans thought that 'negroes' were particularly inferior. Even when they were appalled by slavery. Even if they believed that other races should be allowed to vote.

The abolitionists could be considered 'less racist' in that they believed that we should not have slavery even of humans that they considered to be inferior.

Of course racist is a relative term- there are racists who argue that African Americans are not even the same species as European Americans- there is a whole range of racism.

None of which detracts from the accomplishments of our Founding Fathers, or of the abolitionists or of Abraham Lincoln.

And how do you conclude that Abolitionists -- as if they too are yet another monolith, but for the sake of the argument we stipulate --- also agreed that Africans were an inferior race? Why would anyone holding that belief be advocating abolition of enslaving Africans? That was after all the whole rationalization for doing it.

Howzat work?

I really don't feel like looking it up right now- but if you are interested read up on what some of the abolitionists said about 'negroes'

And I don't consider all abolitionists to be the same- but again by our standards pretty much everyone in 1860 America- and the world would be considered to be a racist.

Just as most would be considered to be homophobic, anti-semitic, mysogynistic, xenophobes by today standards.

AH, I see, one "doesn't feel like looking that up". Isn't that convincing, yessiree Bob.
I've gotta remember that one. What a great argument. This has been nothing if not edumacational.

Feel free to prove me wrong. So far you haven't offered anything.

It's uh...... NOT MY ASSERTION TO DOCUMENT.

Think about it.

Yep- you challenged it- and I said I wasn't going to go look it up. Feel free to prove me wrong- or you can be satisfied with just believing I am wrong.

 

[Bobby1250]

Quote:
Hey Bobby, welcome to the site.
With that out of the way, I suspect you're full of shit.

The Klan was founded by (Capt.) John C. Lester, (Capt.) John B. Kennedy, James R. Crowe, Frank O. McCord, Richard R. Reed, and J. Calvin Jones, six Confederate war veterans. Pulaski Tennessee, Christmas Day 1865. As a joke.

Your evidence of claim to know their religious affiliations is where?
====================================================

Your info is incorrect; the KKK was started by the former Confederate Secretary of War, Judah P. Benjamin and Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest. Both Jews.

 

[Pogo]

4. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.

Interesting phrase -- "the race to which I belong".... might he mean races?