These debates too often get into silly minutiae that clarifies nada. America is a liberal nation, it started as a liberal nation - and while corporate or big media has too much power over the idea landscape today - we are are still a liberal nation. DADT among other recent acts of the people's government prove that conclusion. What would a conservative nation look like? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Egypt before last week? The only reason liberal is a bad word today is power likes power and liberal means change. Liberalism challenges power. Conservatism worships power. [I should note in all my posts I am referring to American style conservatism since the thirties.] Look only to the constant fight against the New Deal, an act that saved the nation and created the prosperity that has today made the prosperous conservatives. A weird turn of events as Tony Judt analyzes so well.
"For anyone born after 1945, the welfare state and its institutions were not a solution to earlier dilemmas: they were simply the normal conditions of life - and more than a little dull. The baby boomers, entering university in the mid sixties, had only ever known the world of improving life chances, generous medical and educational services, optimistic prospects of a upward social mobility and - perhaps above all - an indefinable but ubiquitous sense of security. The goals of an earlier generation of reformers were no longer of interest to their successors. On the contrary they were increasingly perceived as restrictions upon the self-expression and freedom of the individual." Tony Judt 'Ill Fares the Land'
There are so many slogans and rhetorical images in the conservative mind, countering them today is nearly impossible. They have become the frame or structure in which a conservative views and understands the world. Intense's post can be the starting point.
[You can't pursue Justice and Equal Outcome without doing disservice to one or the other. To give Freely what is needed or what you can is a Christian Principle. Caring is a Christian Principle. To take by force of Mandate is of Government, whether it is good or bad in part has to do with Consent, Purpose, Measure, Competence, and Effectiveness, I'm sure there is much more to it. Intentions by Itself does not Justify.
Games sometimes are played for the fun of playing, for the development of skill and ability, Equal Outcome effects the desire to play, to achieve. Modern Liberalism looses sight of the excitement of the game itself, too caught up in playing the role of the God it too often denies exists.
Modern Conservatism has more in common with Locke style Locke style Christianity and Classic Liberalism than Modern Liberalism, which does not Value the Individual, but the Collective.
What happened to the Value of Live and let live, Free to disagree, Freedom of Voice in decent, the Right to possess, the Right to decide for ones self? Hive think, in any form, starves Individual Conscience, it may put the Collective in a better light, but that is an illusion, smoke and mirrors, while the herd moves on blindly in one misdirection and then another, as one. You would have all of your Critics silenced rather than effect growth.
You can pursue justice and a fairer life for all. Why the heck not? Most liberals I know are Christians. Government is not a mandate, nice slogan word. Government is our representative power, it can do good or bad, we can only look back to the recent near financial collapse to see a good, even if you disagree. The country is stronger now. Games are for children, one can use the metaphor, but in the real world, life is not Sunday football. Government doesn't deny gawd, the analogy is irrelevant. But if children are starving, I'd like that the ref make the right call and help. Seems the Christian / religious thing to do. If one reads Locke today as a guide, then what happens to pragmatism, what happens to the game, seems kinda locked up. Modern conservatism is not classical liberalism, that's another empty analogy. No classical liberal would impose the many restrictions the right wing conservatives wants to define and impose on women and gays. Remember conservatism is primarily reactionary. Yes, what happened to the right to be free, same thing that always happens, it means whatever you want it to mean. And as a liberal I like that my elected government keeps an eye on things, saves me from having to, and allows a lot more freedom. Yes, what happened to the right to decide for yourself? Tell us, it your side that denies those rights. http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/50799-is-freedom-real.html
"The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national Union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts." Quote DB :: Speeches :: George Washington :: George Washington's Farewell Address Speech
http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/50872-use-this-handy-parable-to-understand-politics.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/writing/50779-end-of-democracy.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/writing/103530-fact-paradox-and-random-musings.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/88682-a-conservative-wakes-up.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-f...-be-a-liberal-if-post1936599.html#post1936599
Then you remain one of the deluded who thinks todays liberal is anything like those of classical liberals. And equally deluded to believe that conservatism is supposed to have anything to do with control. You may like to say you're a freedom, individual liberty, limited government liberal just like the liberals of yore, but we know you are nothing of the sort. The closest thing to a classical liberal today is probably a libertarian.