What constitutes child abuse?

[Luddly Neddite]

Elsewhere, someone wrote they 'broke wooden spoons over their child's backside'.

OMG. Reading such a casual confession of this degree of child abuse gives me the chills. Some people should have their children taken away from them. Same with dogs and cats because if they'll "break a wooden spoon" on their child, they'll do the same to animals.

Really makes you wonder what goes on behind closed doors.

It made me remember this -

Another child's death linked to Pearls and "To Train Up a Child" - Mankato attachment parenting | Examiner.com

Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz of Paradise, California, are accused of murdering their 7-year-old adopted daughter during a "discipline session." The couple is also charged with the torture of their 11-year-old adopted daughter and cruelty to a child for signs of bruising discovered on their 10-year-old biological son.

The parents allegedly used a 15 inch length of plastic tubing used for plumbing to beat the children, a practice recommended in the book "To Train Up a Child" by Michael and Debi Pearl of "No Greater Joy Ministries."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/us/deaths-put-focus-on-pastors-advocacy-of-spanking.html?_r=3&

... Mr. Pearl is fond of saying, on “the same principles the Amish use to train their stubborn mules.”

... More than 670,000 copies of the Pearls’ self-published book are in circulation ...

Someone else wrote that "spanking" should start very young.

How young?

To Train Up a Child by Michael Pearl ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

[From the comment section]
When a baby bites its mother's breasts, it's not doing it out of malice, so why pull their hair? Why not stop the kid from nursing and then start again? Why is it necessary to inflict pain on a child that small?
This book advices switching starting at the age of four months. Why?

Another couple found guilty of murder for parenting by "To Train Up a Child" - Mankato attachment parenting | Examiner.com

Late one night in May this year, the adopted girl, Hana, was found face down, naked and emaciated in the backyard; her death was caused by hypothermia and malnutrition, officials determined. According to the sheriff’s report, the parents had deprived her of food for days at a time and had made her sleep in a cold barn or a closet and shower outside with a hose. And they often whipped her, leaving marks on her legs. The mother had praised the Pearls’ book and given a copy to a friend, the sheriff’s report said. Hana had been beaten the day of her death, the report said, with the 15-inch plastic tube recommended by Mr. Pearl.

Some of the discipline techniques the Pearls teach include:

Using plastic plumbing tubing to beat children
Wearing the plastic tubing around the parent's neck as a constant reminder to obey
"Swatting" babies as young as six months old with instruments such as "a 12-inch willowy branch," thinner plastic tubing or a wooden spoon
"Blanket training" babies by hitting them with an instrument if they try to crawl off a blanket on the floor
Beating older children with rulers, paddles, belts and larger tree branches
"Training" children with pain before they even disobey, in order to teach total obedience
Giving cold water baths, putting children outside in cold weather and withholding meals as discipline
Hosing off children who have potty training accidents
Inflicting punishment until a child is "without breath to complain"

Michael Pearl tells one mother on his website, "I could break his anger in two days. He would be too scared to get angry. On the third day he would draw into a quiet shell and obey."

Despite Pearl's claim that plumbing line is too light to cause damage to muscle or bone, it caused the death of seven year-old Lydia Schatz in 2010. Officials ruled that she died of severe tissue damage.

I do not believe this is about religion because I do not believe that most religions teach child abuse. Nor do I believe the author of this horrible book is a Christian.

What I'm questioning is the so-called difference between beating a child and spanking a child. The Kansas law says '10 hits, okay to cause bruising'. I call "bruising" abuse. I also wonder how many times one would have to hit a child with a wooden spoon before it broke. And, obviously, that kind of hitting, over and over and then finally breaking a wooden spoon on your child's body would most certainly cause bruising or even breaking the skin.

Your thoughts?

 

[Harry Dresden]

Elsewhere, someone wrote they 'broke wooden spoons over their child's backside'.

OMG. Reading such a casual confession of this degree of child abuse gives me the chills. Some people should have their children taken away from them. Same with dogs and cats because if they'll "break a wooden spoon" on their child, they'll do the same to animals.

Really makes you wonder what goes on behind closed doors.

It made me remember this -

Another child's death linked to Pearls and "To Train Up a Child" - Mankato attachment parenting | Examiner.com

Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz of Paradise, California, are accused of murdering their 7-year-old adopted daughter during a "discipline session." The couple is also charged with the torture of their 11-year-old adopted daughter and cruelty to a child for signs of bruising discovered on their 10-year-old biological son.

The parents allegedly used a 15 inch length of plastic tubing used for plumbing to beat the children, a practice recommended in the book "To Train Up a Child" by Michael and Debi Pearl of "No Greater Joy Ministries."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/us/deaths-put-focus-on-pastors-advocacy-of-spanking.html?_r=3&

... Mr. Pearl is fond of saying, on “the same principles the Amish use to train their stubborn mules.”

... More than 670,000 copies of the Pearls’ self-published book are in circulation ...

Someone else wrote that "spanking" should start very young.

How young?

To Train Up a Child by Michael Pearl ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

[From the comment section]
When a baby bites its mother's breasts, it's not doing it out of malice, so why pull their hair? Why not stop the kid from nursing and then start again? Why is it necessary to inflict pain on a child that small?
This book advices switching starting at the age of four months. Why?

Another couple found guilty of murder for parenting by "To Train Up a Child" - Mankato attachment parenting | Examiner.com

Late one night in May this year, the adopted girl, Hana, was found face down, naked and emaciated in the backyard; her death was caused by hypothermia and malnutrition, officials determined. According to the sheriff’s report, the parents had deprived her of food for days at a time and had made her sleep in a cold barn or a closet and shower outside with a hose. And they often whipped her, leaving marks on her legs. The mother had praised the Pearls’ book and given a copy to a friend, the sheriff’s report said. Hana had been beaten the day of her death, the report said, with the 15-inch plastic tube recommended by Mr. Pearl.

Some of the discipline techniques the Pearls teach include:

Using plastic plumbing tubing to beat children
Wearing the plastic tubing around the parent's neck as a constant reminder to obey
"Swatting" babies as young as six months old with instruments such as "a 12-inch willowy branch," thinner plastic tubing or a wooden spoon
"Blanket training" babies by hitting them with an instrument if they try to crawl off a blanket on the floor
Beating older children with rulers, paddles, belts and larger tree branches
"Training" children with pain before they even disobey, in order to teach total obedience
Giving cold water baths, putting children outside in cold weather and withholding meals as discipline
Hosing off children who have potty training accidents
Inflicting punishment until a child is "without breath to complain"

Michael Pearl tells one mother on his website, "I could break his anger in two days. He would be too scared to get angry. On the third day he would draw into a quiet shell and obey."

Despite Pearl's claim that plumbing line is too light to cause damage to muscle or bone, it caused the death of seven year-old Lydia Schatz in 2010. Officials ruled that she died of severe tissue damage.

I do not believe this is about religion because I do not believe that most religions teach child abuse. Nor do I believe the author of this horrible book is a Christian.

What I'm questioning is the so-called difference between beating a child and spanking a child. The Kansas law says '10 hits, okay to cause bruising'. I call "bruising" abuse. I also wonder how many times one would have to hit a child with a wooden spoon before it broke. And, obviously, that kind of hitting, over and over and then finally breaking a wooden spoon on your child's body would most certainly cause bruising or even breaking the skin.

Your thoughts?

my mother used to use the spoon on me and my Brother Ludd....she must have broke dozens of them on us.....didnt bruise us.....didnt really hurt....but then where i grew up using the Wooden Spoon was the thing in Italian households.....one poor kid named Joey,his mother had a pretty big one....she was a big woman too....

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I had wooden spoons used on me too. They did bruise. They also broke the skin and I have scars to show for it.

Hopefully, we're moving past this barbaric practice of hitting defenseless people who can't fight back and can't get away.

 

[Sunshine]

Elsewhere, someone wrote they 'broke wooden spoons over their child's backside'.

OMG. Reading such a casual confession of this degree of child abuse gives me the chills. Some people should have their children taken away from them. Same with dogs and cats because if they'll "break a wooden spoon" on their child, they'll do the same to animals.

Really makes you wonder what goes on behind closed doors.

It made me remember this -

Another child's death linked to Pearls and "To Train Up a Child" - Mankato attachment parenting | Examiner.com

Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz of Paradise, California, are accused of murdering their 7-year-old adopted daughter during a "discipline session." The couple is also charged with the torture of their 11-year-old adopted daughter and cruelty to a child for signs of bruising discovered on their 10-year-old biological son.

The parents allegedly used a 15 inch length of plastic tubing used for plumbing to beat the children, a practice recommended in the book "To Train Up a Child" by Michael and Debi Pearl of "No Greater Joy Ministries."

Someone else wrote that "spanking" should start very young.

How young?

Another couple found guilty of murder for parenting by "To Train Up a Child" - Mankato attachment parenting | Examiner.com

Late one night in May this year, the adopted girl, Hana, was found face down, naked and emaciated in the backyard; her death was caused by hypothermia and malnutrition, officials determined. According to the sheriff’s report, the parents had deprived her of food for days at a time and had made her sleep in a cold barn or a closet and shower outside with a hose. And they often whipped her, leaving marks on her legs. The mother had praised the Pearls’ book and given a copy to a friend, the sheriff’s report said. Hana had been beaten the day of her death, the report said, with the 15-inch plastic tube recommended by Mr. Pearl.

Some of the discipline techniques the Pearls teach include:

Using plastic plumbing tubing to beat children
Wearing the plastic tubing around the parent's neck as a constant reminder to obey
"Swatting" babies as young as six months old with instruments such as "a 12-inch willowy branch," thinner plastic tubing or a wooden spoon
"Blanket training" babies by hitting them with an instrument if they try to crawl off a blanket on the floor
Beating older children with rulers, paddles, belts and larger tree branches
"Training" children with pain before they even disobey, in order to teach total obedience
Giving cold water baths, putting children outside in cold weather and withholding meals as discipline
Hosing off children who have potty training accidents
Inflicting punishment until a child is "without breath to complain"

Michael Pearl tells one mother on his website, "I could break his anger in two days. He would be too scared to get angry. On the third day he would draw into a quiet shell and obey."

Despite Pearl's claim that plumbing line is too light to cause damage to muscle or bone, it caused the death of seven year-old Lydia Schatz in 2010. Officials ruled that she died of severe tissue damage.

I do not believe this is about religion because I do not believe that most religions teach child abuse. Nor do I believe the author of this horrible book is a Christian.

What I'm questioning is the so-called difference between beating a child and spanking a child. The Kansas law says '10 hits, okay to cause bruising'. I call "bruising" abuse. I also wonder how many times one would have to hit a child with a wooden spoon before it broke. And, obviously, that kind of hitting, over and over and then finally breaking a wooden spoon on your child's body would most certainly cause bruising or even breaking the skin.

Your thoughts?

my mother used to use the spoon on me and my Brother Ludd....she must have broke dozens of them on us.....didnt bruise us.....didnt really hurt....but then where i grew up using the Wooden Spoon was the thing in Italian households.....one poor kid named Joey,his mother had a pretty big one....she was a big woman too....

I have my grandmother's butter paddle. My grandfather whittled it for her out of a piece of cedar wood. I have often wondered how many times it was used on my father's backside.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Sunshine, I'm sorry your father was abused.


`

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Usual lefty tactics, list a clear case of some broken law then resort to demanding who supports the behavior by talking about much more acceptable and not illegal means to do something similar.

I was spanked as a child and the neighbors spanked me if I misbehaved when my parents weren't around. The problem we have now is several generations of people that were never taught right from wrong for fear the State would intervene.

What does that breed? Criminals and ignorant behavior. Rude selfish people.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I do not believe this is about religion because I do not believe that most religions teach child abuse. Nor do I believe the author of this horrible book is a Christian.

What I'm questioning is the so-called difference between beating a child and spanking a child. The Kansas law says '10 hits, okay to cause bruising'. I call "bruising" abuse. I also wonder how many times one would have to hit a child with a wooden spoon before it broke. And, obviously, that kind of hitting, over and over and then finally breaking a wooden spoon on your child's body would most certainly cause bruising or even breaking the skin.

Your thoughts?

I call that abuse.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Humane upbringing is enforced by refined, regulated violence.

Fact.

Spanking is acceptable, bruising is not.

Anybody who suggests that appropriate corporal punishment is child abuse has a screw loose in his her head, and that person's agenda needs to be outed.

 

[Kooshdakhaa]

Fuck. I raised two dobermans from puppyhood and never had to resort to beating them in order to train them in appropriate behavior.

I think people who have to resort to hitting their children are idiots. They're not smart enough to teach their kids, so they have to scare their kids into obedience.

Pathetic.

 

[Kooshdakhaa]

Yeah, this is a great tactic:

"Inflicting punishment until a child is "without breath to complain"

If I saw someone doing that to a child, I'd intervene. I'd feel it was my duty. And I'm pretty sure the law would be on my side.

So you'd better beat your children in hiding, motherfuckers. There are good people in this world who will not tolerate it.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Usual lefty tactics, list a clear case of some broken law then resort to demanding who supports the behavior by talking about much more acceptable and not illegal means to do something similar.

I was spanked as a child and the neighbors spanked me if I misbehaved when my parents weren't around. The problem we have now is several generations of people that were never taught right from wrong for fear the State would intervene.

What does that breed? Criminals and ignorant behavior. Rude selfish people.

my dad would have beat the shit out of someone other than him or my mom spanking or hitting me and my brother or sister....

 

[Harry Dresden]

I do not believe this is about religion because I do not believe that most religions teach child abuse. Nor do I believe the author of this horrible book is a Christian.

What I'm questioning is the so-called difference between beating a child and spanking a child. The Kansas law says '10 hits, okay to cause bruising'. I call "bruising" abuse. I also wonder how many times one would have to hit a child with a wooden spoon before it broke. And, obviously, that kind of hitting, over and over and then finally breaking a wooden spoon on your child's body would most certainly cause bruising or even breaking the skin.

Your thoughts?

I call that abuse.

me and my brother broke quite a few.....the handles aint that big around.....she must have had a drawer full because she always came up with one.....by the time we hit late teens we were never "spanked" again....me and my brother were always fighting when we were smaller....when my dad was home we did very little fighting because well....we knew he can hit harder....

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

The wooden spoon is an Italian thing. My grandmother used to threaten us with it all the time.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Is Spanking a Black and White Issue? - Room for Debate - NYTimes.com

In a recent "Lives" column in The New York Times Magazine, the novelist and culture critic Touré wrote about racial identity. In the piece, he mentioned becoming a father and weighing whether or not spanking a child for misbehaving was acceptable. He pondered the cultural connections to spanking, implying that it was a common form of discipline among black families.

Much has been said about the black-white divide on corporal punishment, but has the gap closed over the years, with black parents feeling under pressure as spanking becomes more taboo among whites and as social institutions -- schools, child welfare agencies -- accept that mainstream view? Do parents of different races face different pressures for and against spanking?

I've never heard of this before.

 

[Harry Dresden]

The wooden spoon is an Italian thing. My grandmother used to threaten us with it all the time.

same here only it was used.....by the time we got into Jr. High we never seen it again....or rarely...

 

[Iceweasel]

Filling your child's head with liberalism.

 

[percysunshine]

What constitutes child abuse?


Pointing out that a liberal just posted something stupid.

.

 

[Dragonlady]

As a child my mother spanked me with a hairbrush. It never made me think twice about doing anything. Getting grounded or losing privileges certainly gave me pause though.

As a kid, I thought spanking was dumb and pointless. I still think it's dumb and pointless. I raised three children without ever hitting any of them.

My oldest daughter is raising her boys without ever hitting any of them. These children are so well behaved, people remark on it.

Children who are treated with respect, learn to respect others. Too often, adults fail to treat children with respect because they're just kids. Children who are hit, learn to hit.

 

[DriftingSand]

Child abuse is anything that won't point a child to bettering himself or herself. Sometimes a lack of discipline is abuse -- especially when a child is allowed to get away with bad behavior while a parent sits tacitly by twiddling his or her thumbs. If a spanking will help teach a child that poor behavior will have negative consequences then a parent is doing his job properly. Now hitting a child just to be mean or to cause unnecessary pain is pure abuse. So ... parents need to find a balance. There's nothing wrong with a little tough love if the child will benefit in the long run.

I think a spanking today may be a lot better than jail time when the child reaches his or her teens.

 

[Mr. H.]

Abuse isn't only physical. I put up with 13 years of the verbal/emotional/mental shit, as did my kids.