What constitutes child abuse?

[JakeStarkey]

Fuck. I raised two dobermans from puppyhood and never had to resort to beating them in order to train them in appropriate behavior.

I think people who have to resort to hitting their children are idiots. They're not smart enough to teach their kids, so they have to scare their kids into obedience.

Pathetic.

Excellent self-description if you equate canines with children.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Child abuse is anything that won't point a child to bettering himself or herself. Sometimes a lack of discipline is abuse -- especially when a child is allowed to get away with bad behavior while a parent sits tacitly by twiddling his or her thumbs. If a spanking will help teach a child that poor behavior will have negative consequences then a parent is doing his job properly. Now hitting a child just to be mean or to cause unnecessary pain is pure abuse. So ... parents need to find a balance. There's nothing wrong with a little tough love if the child will benefit in the long run.

I think a spanking today may be a lot better than jail time when the child reaches his or her teens.

Its not an either/or question.

Hitting a child does not guarantee that child won't grow up to be a criminal.

In fact, its just the opposite because children become what they learn.

 

[DriftingSand]

Child abuse is anything that won't point a child to bettering himself or herself. Sometimes a lack of discipline is abuse -- especially when a child is allowed to get away with bad behavior while a parent sits tacitly by twiddling his or her thumbs. If a spanking will help teach a child that poor behavior will have negative consequences then a parent is doing his job properly. Now hitting a child just to be mean or to cause unnecessary pain is pure abuse. So ... parents need to find a balance. There's nothing wrong with a little tough love if the child will benefit in the long run.

I think a spanking today may be a lot better than jail time when the child reaches his or her teens.

Its not an either/or question.

Hitting a child does not guarantee that child won't grow up to be a criminal.

In fact, its just the opposite because children become what they learn.

I believe in balance. Reward and praise for good behavior and obedience to parental authority -- and punishment for poor behavior or destructive behavior. I'm not implying that a child should be spanked each and every time he or she strays from parental instruction but there may be circumstances where a spanking may be the most appropriate punishment for a particular circumstance. Sometimes just knowing that a spanking is possible is enough to make a child think twice before doing something he or she knows is wrong.

I believe that parents should keep their promises as well. If a parent says: "if you do that again you're going to get a spanking" he or she MUST follow through with that promise if the child is to take him or her seriously in the future. I've heard lots of parents threaten to spank a child if he does something wrong just to watch the kid do it over and over and over again without taking any action at all. That's poor parenting.

I probably only received 3 or 4 spankings my entire childhood but I knew that my dad meant business when he resorted to that punishment. I can honestly say that I never again did that thing that brought on the spanking in the first place.

I'd like to make it clear that I don't believe that spanking and beating are one and the same. A spanking is done with an open hand on the fat of the butt. It stings a little bit for a little while then the sting subsides. A beating creates bruising and could even draw blood if a child is struck in the face. I'm totally opposed to hitting a child in the face or punching him or using any harmful device like a switch or club.

 

[DriftingSand]

Fuck. I raised two dobermans from puppyhood and never had to resort to beating them in order to train them in appropriate behavior.

I think people who have to resort to hitting their children are idiots. They're not smart enough to teach their kids, so they have to scare their kids into obedience.

Pathetic.

Excellent self-description if you equate canines with children.

LOL. I wonder if his kids fetch and sit on command.

 

[Noomi]

To cause bruising, swelling, welts, or redness is child abuse, and those parents should be tied to a post and shot.

 

[Kooshdakhaa]

Fuck. I raised two dobermans from puppyhood and never had to resort to beating them in order to train them in appropriate behavior.

I think people who have to resort to hitting their children are idiots. They're not smart enough to teach their kids, so they have to scare their kids into obedience.

Pathetic.

Excellent self-description if you equate canines with children.

No, I don't EQUATE canines with children. But there are many similarities in the way they learn and how they respond to certain treatment.

I think in your rush to personally insult me the point you missed is this...I treat my dogs better, with more respect and careful thought as to the best way to help them succeed, than a lot of people treat their children.

 

[Kooshdakhaa]

Fuck. I raised two dobermans from puppyhood and never had to resort to beating them in order to train them in appropriate behavior.

I think people who have to resort to hitting their children are idiots. They're not smart enough to teach their kids, so they have to scare their kids into obedience.

Pathetic.

Excellent self-description if you equate canines with children.

LOL. I wonder if his kids fetch and sit on command.

Another one who totally missed the point.

 

[Iceweasel]

Dogs are eager to please. Kids, not so much. It isn't a vaid comparison because unless the dog was badly mistreated or abused they want to please their master. Getting them to understand and act of of habit is the tough part. That isn't the issue raising children. Plus they have many other outside influences affecting their behavior.

 

[Swagger]

Luddy, when I was in school we had to eat what was then called an "Empire Breakfast", which consisted of gruel and porridge. It was what troops in all four corners of the empire would eat, and we had to share their burden to foster solidarity with the men who held conquered territory. One boy on our table refused to eat it, and a nearby school master emptied his pipe into the bowl and pushed his face into it, ordering him to eat it all. Some would call it child abuse, others call it character building.

I first felt the sting of my headmaster's cane when I was seven-years-old.

 

[DriftingSand]

Excellent self-description if you equate canines with children.

LOL. I wonder if his kids fetch and sit on command.

Another one who totally missed the point.

I was commenting on your short answer. However, I also realize the SOME of the training techniques used to teach a dog can be used to teach a child so I'm not totally in disagreement with you.

I do believe that a swat on a dog's behind (in rare circumstances) can aid in the training process. I don't believe in using the hand as the dog could come to believe that a human hand can't be trusted. I would use a small, rolled up newspaper or something like an empty paper towel roll. I've trained a few dogs in my lifetime and I love them as much as I do family but I've had to resort to swatting on a few occasions. Two things occurred: 1) They curbed their behavior (stopped peeing on the front room floor, etc.) and 2) they came to see me as the "alpha" male. It's important that dogs know who is in charge but a dog owner doesn't need to be violent or mean to establish that chain of command.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Luddy, when I was in school we had to eat what was then called an "Empire Breakfast", which consisted of gruel and porridge. It was what troops in all four corners of the empire would eat, and we had to share their burden to foster solidarity with the men who held conquered territory. One boy on our table refused to eat it, and a nearby school master emptied his pipe into the bowl and pushed his face into it, ordering him to eat it all. Some would call it child abuse, others call it character building.

I first felt the sting of my headmaster's cane when I was seven-years-old.

we were taken out to the hallway and paddled....and it stung....

 

[Mojo2]

Elsewhere, someone wrote they 'broke wooden spoons over their child's backside'.

OMG. Reading such a casual confession of this degree of child abuse gives me the chills. Some people should have their children taken away from them. Same with dogs and cats because if they'll "break a wooden spoon" on their child, they'll do the same to animals.

Really makes you wonder what goes on behind closed doors.

It made me remember this -

Another child's death linked to Pearls and "To Train Up a Child" - Mankato attachment parenting | Examiner.com

Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz of Paradise, California, are accused of murdering their 7-year-old adopted daughter during a "discipline session." The couple is also charged with the torture of their 11-year-old adopted daughter and cruelty to a child for signs of bruising discovered on their 10-year-old biological son.

The parents allegedly used a 15 inch length of plastic tubing used for plumbing to beat the children, a practice recommended in the book "To Train Up a Child" by Michael and Debi Pearl of "No Greater Joy Ministries."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/us/deaths-put-focus-on-pastors-advocacy-of-spanking.html?_r=3&

... Mr. Pearl is fond of saying, on “the same principles the Amish use to train their stubborn mules.”

... More than 670,000 copies of the Pearls’ self-published book are in circulation ...

Someone else wrote that "spanking" should start very young.

How young?

To Train Up a Child by Michael Pearl ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

[From the comment section]
When a baby bites its mother's breasts, it's not doing it out of malice, so why pull their hair? Why not stop the kid from nursing and then start again? Why is it necessary to inflict pain on a child that small?
This book advices switching starting at the age of four months. Why?

Another couple found guilty of murder for parenting by "To Train Up a Child" - Mankato attachment parenting | Examiner.com

Late one night in May this year, the adopted girl, Hana, was found face down, naked and emaciated in the backyard; her death was caused by hypothermia and malnutrition, officials determined. According to the sheriff’s report, the parents had deprived her of food for days at a time and had made her sleep in a cold barn or a closet and shower outside with a hose. And they often whipped her, leaving marks on her legs. The mother had praised the Pearls’ book and given a copy to a friend, the sheriff’s report said. Hana had been beaten the day of her death, the report said, with the 15-inch plastic tube recommended by Mr. Pearl.

Some of the discipline techniques the Pearls teach include:

Using plastic plumbing tubing to beat children
Wearing the plastic tubing around the parent's neck as a constant reminder to obey
"Swatting" babies as young as six months old with instruments such as "a 12-inch willowy branch," thinner plastic tubing or a wooden spoon
"Blanket training" babies by hitting them with an instrument if they try to crawl off a blanket on the floor
Beating older children with rulers, paddles, belts and larger tree branches
"Training" children with pain before they even disobey, in order to teach total obedience
Giving cold water baths, putting children outside in cold weather and withholding meals as discipline
Hosing off children who have potty training accidents
Inflicting punishment until a child is "without breath to complain"

Michael Pearl tells one mother on his website, "I could break his anger in two days. He would be too scared to get angry. On the third day he would draw into a quiet shell and obey."

Despite Pearl's claim that plumbing line is too light to cause damage to muscle or bone, it caused the death of seven year-old Lydia Schatz in 2010. Officials ruled that she died of severe tissue damage.

I do not believe this is about religion because I do not believe that most religions teach child abuse. Nor do I believe the author of this horrible book is a Christian.

What I'm questioning is the so-called difference between beating a child and spanking a child. The Kansas law says '10 hits, okay to cause bruising'. I call "bruising" abuse. I also wonder how many times one would have to hit a child with a wooden spoon before it broke. And, obviously, that kind of hitting, over and over and then finally breaking a wooden spoon on your child's body would most certainly cause bruising or even breaking the skin.

Your thoughts?

I think there are times when a physical application of 'child raising' is called for. When words no longer work, addressing immediate situations with spanking, whipping, beating, or 'belting' imparts the message:

"This is serious, important or urgent and crucial, so pay attention and be prepared for more of this if you don't change or fail to obey me. I don't like this but I have no other way of getting through to you."​

A side benefit of this is that it helps reinforce in their minds the certainty that they very well could get another application if they don't behave. It makes the threat of using it again very real.

Which helps keep the actual applications to a minimum.

Saddam Hussein din't particularly like the sadism and brutality exhibited by his sons and so when they were killed he showed llittle remorse.

Some say this proves what a cold blooded individual he was.

He explained it this way. "You can't pick your children."

When you watch nature shows it is common for loving animal parents to give the kids a nip or a swat to give them a message.

Human children are actually animals and sometimes they need a nip or a swat, too.

Sometimes if you don't it really can spoil the child.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Luddy, when I was in school we had to eat what was then called an "Empire Breakfast", which consisted of gruel and porridge. It was what troops in all four corners of the empire would eat, and we had to share their burden to foster solidarity with the men who held conquered territory. One boy on our table refused to eat it, and a nearby school master emptied his pipe into the bowl and pushed his face into it, ordering him to eat it all. Some would call it child abuse, others call it character building.

I first felt the sting of my headmaster's cane when I was seven-years-old.

Yes, that was abuse. It was bullying as well. I still can't eat cooked cereal for a similar reason.

No excuse for using a cane on a 7yo although they were used on me much younger. Actually, it was a wooden broom handle with one end wrapped in tape to give a better grip. I can still see it in my mind's eye - yellow peeling paint and dried blood worked deep into the wood grain.

Yes, I know the difference between a "swat" and a beating but just when I think we're finally evolving, I read about people hitting their children. Or dogs.

Still, no one can answer my question - where did we ever get the idea that hitting (bullying) a child is a valid parenting/discipline tool?

The answer is, because we can. Because some people need to hurt those who can't fight back because it makes them feel a strength they don't really have.

Spanking is the very definition of bullying.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Luddy, when I was in school we had to eat what was then called an "Empire Breakfast", which consisted of gruel and porridge. It was what troops in all four corners of the empire would eat, and we had to share their burden to foster solidarity with the men who held conquered territory. One boy on our table refused to eat it, and a nearby school master emptied his pipe into the bowl and pushed his face into it, ordering him to eat it all. Some would call it child abuse, others call it character building.

I first felt the sting of my headmaster's cane when I was seven-years-old.

That's child abuse.

 

[JOSweetHeart]

To me, physical discipline is what should be done if nothing else works and to me, taking privileges away from kids when they misbehave should be enough because that is how things are done for those who are older. When laws are broken, privileges are taken from those who break them. If kids want back their toys, videos games, etc., there is only one way to get them.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

 

[Kooshdakhaa]

Power corrupts. That's why parents hit their children. Because they can.

They are pathetic for doing it. Barbarians.

 

[Dragonlady]

The current method of discipline in my daughter's house is called "going Amish". No TV, music or video games. Nothing electronic whatsoever. Gets much better results than any spanking.

Why do people think spanking is effective? It never worked when I was spanked. Not once did I ever stop and worry about being spanked if I did anything. A couple of whacks on the bottom were unpleasant but so what?

Spanking is the least effective form of discipline ever.

 

[Iceweasel]

The current method of discipline in my daughter's house is called "going Amish". No TV, music or video games. Nothing electronic whatsoever. Gets much better results than any spanking.

Why do people think spanking is effective? It never worked when I was spanked. Not once did I ever stop and worry about being spanked if I did anything. A couple of whacks on the bottom were unpleasant but so what?

Spanking is the least effective form of discipline ever.

So your singlular experience transcends all of man's history? I doubt it.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

The current method of discipline in my daughter's house is called "going Amish". No TV, music or video games. Nothing electronic whatsoever. Gets much better results than any spanking.

Why do people think spanking is effective? It never worked when I was spanked. Not once did I ever stop and worry about being spanked if I did anything. A couple of whacks on the bottom were unpleasant but so what?

Spanking is the least effective form of discipline ever.

Good point - Most people believe they won't get caught. And, some adults are mature enough to recognize that. Other adults aren't smart enough to know more than their kids do.

 

[Dragonlady]

All of man's history? Are you aware there are many cultures throughout the world that do not punish children by hitting them?

I see few people today who spank or slap their children. It serves no useful function. It only teaches them to disrespect and hurt others.