Zone1 What exactly did Jesus mean when He said "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do"?

[Red Front]

I do understand. I also understand that multiverses are theoretical, don't give me pause for concern and would be creating matter from nothing just like our universe.

Do YOU understand that the CMB is empirical data which proves the universe was created from nothing?

The CMB only proves a big bang, not how that big bang was caused. It definitely doesn't prove the Christian god. Why isn't it the Muslim or Hindu gods? Why is it one god and not many? Why is it a divine person or entity and not something else? As far as the multiverse theory, being a theory. Yes, right? Your theory is that it is the biblical god that created everything, which is just as speculative, if not more so than the multiverse theory.

In quantum mechanics we see particles coming into existence from nothing. We don't know where those particles are coming from, if from anywhere or anything else. We don't know. So how do you figure it was a god that did it?

The CMB is a key piece of evidence for the Big Bang theory, which states that the universe began as a singularity and then rapidly expanded. However, the CMB only provides evidence for the Big Bang itself, not for the cause of the Big Bang. The cause of the Big Bang is still unknown and there are various scientific theories attempting to explain it.

My AI/ChatGPT writes the following:​

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Why Isn't it the Muslim or Hindu Gods?​

If the CMB were to provide evidence for the existence of God, it does not necessarily point to the Christian God specifically. There are many religions and belief systems in the world, each with their own gods and creation stories. If the CMB were to prove the existence of a creator, why would it be the Christian God specifically and not the gods of other religions?

Why is it One God and not Many?​

Assuming that the CMB does prove the existence of a creator, it does not necessarily follow that there is only one god. Many polytheistic religions believe in multiple gods, each with their own role in the creation of the universe. If the CMB were to prove the existence of a creator, it does not necessarily prove the existence of only one particular kind of god.

Why is it a Divine Person or Entity and not Something Else?​

Even if the CMB were to prove the existence of a creator, it does not necessarily prove that this creator is a divine person or entity. The creator could be something else entirely, such as some type of force, energy field, or principle that doesn't rely upon being a person to exist. The claim that the CMB proves the existence of the Christian God assumes that a creator is a divine person or entity, which is not necessarily the case.

The Multiverse Theory is Just as Speculative​

Some individuals who claim that the CMB proves the existence of God argue that the multiverse theory is just as speculative. However, the multiverse theory is a scientific theory based on mathematical equations and is supported by empirical evidence. While the multiverse theory is not yet proven, it is not merely speculative in the same way that the claim that the CMB proves the existence of God is.

Quantum Mechanics and Particle Creation​

In quantum mechanics, particles can appear to come into existence from nothing. However, this does not necessarily point to the existence of God. It is simply a phenomenon that we do not yet fully understand. It is important to note that just because we do not understand something, it does not mean that it must be the result of a divine being.

Conclusion​

In conclusion, the claim that the CMB proves the existence of God is flawed. The CMB only provides evidence for the Big Bang, not for the cause of the Big Bang or the existence of a divine being. Even if the CMB were to prove the existence of a creator, it does not necessarily point to the Christian God specifically or a divine person or entity in general. The multiverse theory is a scientific theory based on empirical evidence, while the claim that the CMB proves the existence of God is merely speculative.

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Ding donkey, you need to get an AI, it will highlight a lot of your ignorance and identify any logical fallacy in your arguments. You can actually tell it to highlight the logical fallacies in your arguments, making your posts here on the forum more logical and less asinine and insufferable. Wake up.

 

[BreezeWood]

I must ask again.........how old are you 15, 16? A cicada is a cicada..........its nothing new, nor will the next generation be nothing new, its a natural and common condition shared by many insects that begin in a larva state and transform into winged insects.

Larva - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is a difference between Vertical and Horizontal evolution. All biological life forms have the DNA from birth to adapt and change WITHIN species. Such as man changes.........in the so called RACES......some have light skin, some blond hair, some dark hair, some have more hair than others...some, such as Native Americans can hardly grow facial hair........but again, in the end there is only one race of humans on earth........The Human Race, all share in the same blood line as demonstrated by the fact that the blood can be transfused from one skin color to another depending onTYPE instead of skin of color.......all have the same blood. This change within species is called Horizontal evolution.......every creature has this ability.........but what you can't demonstrate is Vertical evolution.........or macro evolution from one species into a completely different species.

You are suggesting that a wolf and a dog are completely different animals because each has adapted to their surroundings in a different manner, in the end...........Dogs, foxes, wolves, coyotes, jackals, etc, are all members of the same family......called Canis.....commonly called K-9

You are presenting a false premise, and suggesting that the Cicada changed its DNA and was not birthed with the DNA signature that allowed it to grow wings and fly........much like you would attempt to declare that a human changed into a different creature when the crawling infant matured and began to walk. Nonsense.

You can't prove one example of vertical maco evolution.......but I can present many LIVING FOSSILS that have supposedly been around for millions of years......without changing. You are yet to present that facts as to how a cold blooded creature such as a fish can evolve into a warm blooded creature.........or how sea life eventually transformed into all examples of life on earth.....evolving from gills to lungs......why are humans not amphibians, it would come in handy for all the Keeping up with the Jones that keep building and living in the known paths of severe weather?

you are really dense ...

no, what is demonstrated is the physiology's spiritual content transforms the cicada from one kind of a being into an entirely different one that is the metaphysical basis for all evolutionary progression.

dna is a physical metaphysical substance the same as the physiology for each individual - evolution is not directed by the physical but the spiritual element of the universes metaphysical forces that have become their own independent self-governing modules in composition within the complete organism.

 

[Red Front]

I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. 2 Maccabees 7:28

Why are you citing verses from the Catholic bible? What does that have to do with anything? How did you scientifically come to the conclusion that the Catholic bible is the inerrant word of an almighty god-entity? What makes the bible such an authority? People's opinions and desires?

 

[ding]

How does the cosmic background radiation prove the existence of the Christian deity?

I haven't gotten within a hundred miles of that. Nor do I care to with you.

 

[ding]

The CMB only proves a big bang, not how that big bang was caused.

If you understood the science of the big bang and where the radiation came from you would know you were wrong.

You couldn't figure it out from the link I provided?

 

[ding]

the Big Bang theory, which states that the universe began as a singularity

That's a false statement. Clearly you don't know what singularity means in the context of Einsteins's field equations.

 

[ding]

The CMB is a key piece of evidence for the Big Bang theory

But you don't know why.

 

[ding]

However, the CMB only provides evidence for the Big Bang itself, not for the cause of the Big Bang.

Incorrect. Can you walk me through how the CMB came to be?

 

[ding]

The cause of the Big Bang is still unknown and there are various scientific theories attempting to explain it.

Since you say there are various theories, can you walk me through one of them?

 

[ding]

Why are you citing verses from the Catholic bible? What does that have to do with anything? How did you scientifically come to the conclusion that the Catholic bible is the inerrant word of an almighty god-entity? What makes the bible such an authority? People's opinions and desires?

2 Maccabees was originally written in Koine Greek by an unknown diaspora Jew living in Hellenistic Egypt. It was likely written some time between 150 and 120 BC. Together with the book 1 Maccabees, it is one of the most important sources on the Maccabean Revolt. The work is not a sequel to 1 Maccabees but rather its own independent rendition of the historical events of the Maccabean Revolt. It both starts and ends its history earlier than 1 Maccabees, starting with an incident with the Seleucid official Heliodorus attempting to tax the Second Temple in 178 BC, and ending with the Battle of Adasa in 161 BC. Some scholars believe the book to be influenced by the Pharisaic tradition, with sections that include an endorsement of prayer for the dead and a resurrection of the dead.

The book, like the other Books of the Maccabees, was included in the Septuagint, a prominent Greek collection of Jewish scripture. It was not promptly translated to Hebrew nor included in the Masoretic Hebrew canon, the Tanakh. While possibly read by Greek-speaking Jews in the two centuries after its creation, later Jews did not consider the work canonical nor important. Early Christians did honor the work, and it was included as a deuterocanonical work of the Old Testament. Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Christians still consider the work deuterocanonical; Protestant Christians do not regard 2 Maccabees as canonical, although many include 2 Maccabees as part of the biblical apocrypha, noncanonical books useful for the purpose of edification.

2 Maccabees - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[BreezeWood]

How does the cosmic background radiation prove the existence of the Christian deity?

I haven't gotten within a hundred miles of that. Nor do I care to with you.

liar...

pretentious exaggerations are as close as you will ever get - for your false messiah, the religion of servitude.

 

[Clyde 154]

And again, the CMB doesn't say anything about a possible multiverse. Do you not understand that?

Circular Reasoning? Regardless of how many imagined "hypothetical" universes you might wish existed........the same logic, reason, and laws apply...........there had to be a beginning to the FIRST or a cause to the effects you call the "multiverse". If you imagine this multiverse to be physical, then the same physical laws must be applied, and there must be a Superior cause to these effects, leaving only one logical conclusion, the cause to the effect must be Spiritual, Super (superior) Natural (to nature) rather than physical.

In lay terms........you are simply "kicking the can down the road.........." because there is no logical or reasonable explanation as to how anything physical can be created void of a superior cause......or, as Hawking concluded, I don't believe in God (because I am a cripple), therefore the Universe created itself from nothing. Talk about DOGMA and personal Hatred, instead of accepting the fact that He was alive and still capable of using his mind (one of the most intelligent men in history).......he accused God of allowing this handicap to take place, in the place of love and joy......he injected personal hate....a brilliant mind wasted.

 

[Clyde 154]

Since you say there are various theories, can you walk me through one of them?

One of the most brilliant minds in history...summed it up, The Universe simply created itself from nothing (S. Hawking), that's all the atheists have. A self creating universe that defies all the laws of physics. The only theories that even attempt to explain how the universe was created void of accepting a supernatural cause.......must leave all the laws of logic and physics at the door.

 

[Donald H]

Circular Reasoning? Regardless of how many imagined "hypothetical" universes you might wish existed........the same logic, reason, and laws apply...........there had to be a beginning to the FIRST or a cause to the effects you call the "multiverse".

Stop right there. No, there doesn't have to be a beginning. This is over the pay grade of the human mind to understand at this point in time. And neither does there have to be an end.

For you, you're not even in the same ball park.

 

[ding]

Stop right there. No, there doesn't have to be a beginning. This is over the pay grade of the human mind to understand at this point in time. And neither does there have to be an end.

For you, you're not even in the same ball park.

The CMB says otherwise. If you understood why the CMB exists you would understand the mechanics for how the universe began.

 

[Donald H]

To help Christians understand this question on the multiverse, read the following and substitute a 'god' with 'multiverse'.

If God created the universe, then who created God? And who created the creator of God?
God has no beginning and God has no end; who created God?
How was God just "there" without being created?
What does it mean in the beginning of God?
If there is a beginning and an end, "How can 'GOD' instead mean no beginning and no end"?




Some other good answers here, so just a couple additional thoughts.
Something has to be ultimate and un-created. To ask, “who created God” or “what came before God” is both a category error and results in logical absurdities. If something created God, that thing would be God, and so on ad infinitum. Further, if each god required a god before it to have caused it, then you wind up in the odd position of having successfully traversed an infinite series to arrive at today’s god, and “coming to the end of an infinity” is self-contradictory. Although there are a few Christian theologians who might disagree (Descartes, for instance), most agree that “omnipotence” does not include the ability to do the inherently illogical or absurd, so therefore God is uncreated, eternal and uncaused.

 

[ding]

To help atheists understand why their lives have no higher meaning or higher purpose.... atheism proceeds on the belief that the lives of individuals and society in general do not go beyond satisfying their material needs and animal instincts.

 

[Donald H]

To help atheists understand why their lives have no higher meaning or higher purpose.... atheism proceeds on the belief that the lives of individuals and society in general do not go beyond satisfying their material needs and animal instincts.

I would agree with that and only add that we atheists also have non-material needs. Otherwise, life in the here and now is how *we live our lives, with no expectations of an afterlife.

*we in the sense that I take the liberty to speak for other atheists who may not agree that there is no afterlife?

 

[BreezeWood]

To help atheists understand why their lives have no higher meaning or higher purpose.... atheism proceeds on the belief that the lives of individuals and society in general do not go beyond satisfying their material needs and animal instincts.

no, the c-bible was not written when life began on planet earth nor would evolution progress were it confined to the draconian beliefs of servitude and the injustices of the desert religions -

rather, true liberation theology, self determination of the truly religious is the guide to heavenly riches.

 

[Clyde 154]

Stop right there. No, there doesn't have to be a beginning. This is over the pay grade of the human mind to understand at this point in time. And neither does there have to be an end.

For you, you're not even in the same ball park.

Imagine that.........secularism that pretends to be working with SCIENCE declares that EFFECTS do not require a Superior or Equal CAUSE. In other words.....you present pure unadulterated Ad Hominem Bull Shit and declare that as TRUTH. The quint essential meaning of DOGMA. You have made a religion out of Evolution as defined by all Darwinian Cultists....and you do not possess even the slightest iota of Prima Facie or Objective evidence to support your professed belief....why? Because its beyond your ability to comprehend, its above your pay grade. You really HAVE NO EXCUSE not to believe in a creator.........its confirmed by the THINGS that ARE CREATED that are visible and confirmed (Romans 1:20)

As the Holy Scriptures declare, "Professing themselves to be wise..........they became fools.........." -- Romans 1:22


Exactly......this reality is beyond the mind and physical laws to comprehend or explain via the laws that govern it. So let us look at the things that are Quantifiable/Measurable by the mind and the laws of physics. The Universe exits, human life exists as quantified by the things that are created and visibly comprehended. The Laws of this physical reality that are consistent declare that any and all EFFECTS must have a Superior or Equal Cause..........EXCEPT Origins? Really?

Please continue with your "fairy tale".........they are entertaining if nothing else.

Why do I believe in a Creator.....a superior Cause......call it what you will but to us, ITS GOD?

(ALL MATTER REQUIRES A MARKER.........A CAUSE, according to the laws of logic and physics. These Laws state that every EFFECT.....such as the known Universe in all its glory, must have an adequate antecedent (something that existed before the effect) CAUSE/MAKER. Its called the Law of Causality. Nothing can create itself from nothing. If you begin with nothing, nothing is all that will ever exist.

This is the fairy tale propagated by all the so called smart people....who refuse to even address the cause to the effect known as the universe.....they demand everyone must ignore origins and start their building on the 2nd floor instead of the erecting a firm foundation. The story goes like this.

Allegedly about 14 bill years ago all of the matter and energy in the universe was concentrated into a tiny ball (Cosmic Egg)....it suddenly exploded, no one knows how or why, it just went BANG!!!!! And from all this violence and chaos the universe came into existence causing the eventual creation of all the Galaxies, stars, and planets. All known physical elements came from just 2 gases, Hydrogen and Helium.

The major problem.........THAT YOU JUST EXPERIENCED FIRST HAND, you must conclude that the Universe is eternal, even if you have to ignore the laws of physics, even to the point of having to make a so called MULTIVERSE and kick the can down the road to avoid having to explain how the universe was created void of a firm FOUNDATION. You must explain where the ball of energy (cosmic egg) came from that exploded. If not, why not.....why should any intelligent person with the ability of critical independent thinking and reasoning accept such nonsense.........simply because you lack the KNOWLEGE, as self professed, to explain your own origins? When the observable truth concludes with the Laws of Thermodynamics stating, IN NATURE..........matter and energy are neither created nor destroyed. Yet you insist that a magic ball of energy........not God, created everything.

2nd reason to believe in a creator God. ALL LIFE DEMANDS A LIFE GIVER. You claim that life came from dead matter......no energy, just dead matter, it somehow evolved into a life form that requires the consumption of energy to exist...again contrary to the Laws of Physics (thermodynamics).

There is an existing law as concluded via the use of the Scientific Method called the Law of "Biogenesis"......this Law has been confirmed and never falsified by the Scientific Method......the experiment that followed the Scientific Method of Observation, Reproduction and consistency was preformed by Louis Pasteur in the 19th century, and its never been proven wrong. Each and every time its tested by the scientific method, it is confirmed. This law states that LIFE can only be reproduced/created by pre-existing life within the same species.

The conclusion: In the material universe, life is observed arising from previously existing life of its own kind (species), life cannot spontaneously generate itself from non living chemicals. If this rule/law of physics is not true.......simply present the experiment where LIFE has been created void of a pre-existing life of the same species. In fact there have been countless experiments conducted along this stated hypothesis, and the Scientific Method always..........falsifies the hypothesis.

The Holy Scriptures conclude the exact same thing that Pasteur proved. Life can only be reproduced, created, by pre-existing life each after its OWN KIND. (Genesis 1:24)