What is a fair tax rate?

[Lonestar_logic]

I disagree, because those couples that earn about 20k a year, don't owe taxes on that 20k due to standard deductions and exemptions, and those of us couples that make a lot more, including millionaires, DO NOT PAY any taxes on that first 20 k earned....there is nothing UNFAIR or UNEQUAL about that Dave?

It is a disguised PROGRESSIVE TAX SYSTEM.... I have broken down the inherent percentages it bring about before... if you want, I will do it AGAIN... and a progressive system, by definition, is unequal treatment...

I guess fair is subjective. I think it's fair for those who have more to pay more. Some think that someone who inherits $10 billion but doesn't do a lick of work in his life should pay nothing while someone who works his ass off for $10,000 a year should pay $1,000 in taxes.....

So you're saying the more you make the more you should pay. Which is basically punishing success.

And I believe under Dave's plan the person making $10,000 a year would pay $0.00 in federal income tax.

 

[Againsheila]

It is a disguised PROGRESSIVE TAX SYSTEM.... I have broken down the inherent percentages it bring about before... if you want, I will do it AGAIN... and a progressive system, by definition, is unequal treatment...

I guess fair is subjective. I think it's fair for those who have more to pay more. Some think that someone who inherits $10 billion but doesn't do a lick of work in his life should pay nothing while someone who works his ass off for $10,000 a year should pay $1,000 in taxes.....

So you're saying the more you make the more you should pay. Which is basically punishing success.

And I believe under Dave's plan the person making $10,000 a year would pay $0.00 in federal income tax.

So the guy who inherited $10 billion was successful? What did he do right, get born into the right family? Yeah, that's fair.

 

[westwall]

OK, we'd all like to pay 0%, but what tax rates do you think would be fair - and sustainable?

For simplicity, I've broken it down here into these main categories:

Low income 20%
Middle income 27.5%
High income 35%

Corporate tax 30%

VAT 15%

Tax on dividends & shares 25%

Any other major tax categories needed?

My plan is to raise income for the state with a VAT, which will hit the shadow economy and mean even drug dealers are paying some tax.

With that extra income I can then trim corporate taxes.

Feel free to add more details in - I did this very quickly!

Ahhh just screw it. Charge everyone 95% and watch the country collapse as everyone figures out they can be poor and lounge around as easy as they can be poor and work.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I guess fair is subjective. I think it's fair for those who have more to pay more. Some think that someone who inherits $10 billion but doesn't do a lick of work in his life should pay nothing while someone who works his ass off for $10,000 a year should pay $1,000 in taxes.....

So you're saying the more you make the more you should pay. Which is basically punishing success.

And I believe under Dave's plan the person making $10,000 a year would pay $0.00 in federal income tax.

So the guy who inherited $10 billion was successful? What did he do right, get born into the right family? Yeah, that's fair.

How often does that happen? I mean really?

So his father dies and leaves him a fortune. He should be punished for that?

How is that fair?

 

[Shelzin]

And hency why I am against the current system and how it has progressively gotten worse...

But everyone paying a certain percentage at a start of a wage is hardly unfair... I mean your argument falls apart given that everybody doesn't tax for the first "X" amount.

FAIR is SUBJECTIVE.. we are talking about equality in treatment

It does not fall apart.. that is plain idiocy.... what a ramped up floor does is nothing more than create a disguised PROGRESSIVE SYSTEM

Person A earns 15K, gets taxed on none and pays a 0% rate on all money earned in the year
Person B earns 25K, gets taxed on 5K at say a 20% rate, which equates to a 4% rate on all money earned in the year
Person C earns 50K, gets taxed on 30K at a 20%, which equates to a 12% rate on all money earned in the year
Person D earns 100K, gets taxed on 80K at 20%, which equates to a 16% rate on all money earned in the year
Person E earns 1MIL, gets taxed on 980K at 20%, which equates to a 19.6% rate on all money earned in the year

BY DEFINITION A PROGRESSIVE TAX IS UNEQUAL TREATMENT BY GOVERNMENT UNDER LAW... this is not in error, this is not debatable, this is pure unadulterated fact

I agree... THe progressive tax is bullshit.

But what's wrong with 20% after 10k.... It's not progressive. It's one shot done. NOBODY gets taxed on the first 10k... That's fair... yes?

 

[DiamondDave]

But everyone paying a certain percentage at a start of a wage is hardly unfair... I mean your argument falls apart given that everybody doesn't tax for the first "X" amount.

FAIR is SUBJECTIVE.. we are talking about equality in treatment

It does not fall apart.. that is plain idiocy.... what a ramped up floor does is nothing more than create a disguised PROGRESSIVE SYSTEM

Person A earns 15K, gets taxed on none and pays a 0% rate on all money earned in the year
Person B earns 25K, gets taxed on 5K at say a 20% rate, which equates to a 4% rate on all money earned in the year
Person C earns 50K, gets taxed on 30K at a 20%, which equates to a 12% rate on all money earned in the year
Person D earns 100K, gets taxed on 80K at 20%, which equates to a 16% rate on all money earned in the year
Person E earns 1MIL, gets taxed on 980K at 20%, which equates to a 19.6% rate on all money earned in the year

BY DEFINITION A PROGRESSIVE TAX IS UNEQUAL TREATMENT BY GOVERNMENT UNDER LAW... this is not in error, this is not debatable, this is pure unadulterated fact

I agree... THe progressive tax is bullshit.

But what's wrong with 20% after 10k.... It's not progressive. It's one shot done. NOBODY gets taxed on the first 10k... That's fair... yes?

Are you an IDIOT??

I just showed you where the salary floor addition MAKES IT A DISGUISED PROGRESSIVE TAX....

Jesus.. you even quoted where I did it

 

[Shelzin]

0%

I don't have a problem with that either... It's just not viable without going through some steps to it first. You would have to work your way to it, not just... BAM!

 

[Shelzin]

FAIR is SUBJECTIVE.. we are talking about equality in treatment

It does not fall apart.. that is plain idiocy.... what a ramped up floor does is nothing more than create a disguised PROGRESSIVE SYSTEM

Person A earns 15K, gets taxed on none and pays a 0% rate on all money earned in the year
Person B earns 25K, gets taxed on 5K at say a 20% rate, which equates to a 4% rate on all money earned in the year
Person C earns 50K, gets taxed on 30K at a 20%, which equates to a 12% rate on all money earned in the year
Person D earns 100K, gets taxed on 80K at 20%, which equates to a 16% rate on all money earned in the year
Person E earns 1MIL, gets taxed on 980K at 20%, which equates to a 19.6% rate on all money earned in the year

BY DEFINITION A PROGRESSIVE TAX IS UNEQUAL TREATMENT BY GOVERNMENT UNDER LAW... this is not in error, this is not debatable, this is pure unadulterated fact

I agree... THe progressive tax is bullshit.

But what's wrong with 20% after 10k.... It's not progressive. It's one shot done. NOBODY gets taxed on the first 10k... That's fair... yes?

Are you an IDIOT??

Opinions vary.

I just showed you where the salary floor addition MAKES IT A DISGUISED PROGRESSIVE TAX....

No you didn't. I understand that you think you did.

 

[Againsheila]

But everyone paying a certain percentage at a start of a wage is hardly unfair... I mean your argument falls apart given that everybody doesn't tax for the first "X" amount.

FAIR is SUBJECTIVE.. we are talking about equality in treatment

It does not fall apart.. that is plain idiocy.... what a ramped up floor does is nothing more than create a disguised PROGRESSIVE SYSTEM

Person A earns 15K, gets taxed on none and pays a 0% rate on all money earned in the year
Person B earns 25K, gets taxed on 5K at say a 20% rate, which equates to a 4% rate on all money earned in the year
Person C earns 50K, gets taxed on 30K at a 20%, which equates to a 12% rate on all money earned in the year
Person D earns 100K, gets taxed on 80K at 20%, which equates to a 16% rate on all money earned in the year
Person E earns 1MIL, gets taxed on 980K at 20%, which equates to a 19.6% rate on all money earned in the year

BY DEFINITION A PROGRESSIVE TAX IS UNEQUAL TREATMENT BY GOVERNMENT UNDER LAW... this is not in error, this is not debatable, this is pure unadulterated fact

I agree... THe progressive tax is bullshit.

But what's wrong with 20% after 10k.... It's not progressive. It's one shot done. NOBODY gets taxed on the first 10k... That's fair... yes?

In my scenario, no one got taxed on the first $20,000 and they didn't think that was fair. the percentage went up in increments, but each increment was separate. IE, everybody is taxed the same on the same amount of money, just that those that make a higher amount of money pay a higher percentage on the more they make over a certain amount. Our economy did much better when the highest tax rated was 70% and mw had the highest spending power in history. my 70% would only be on the amount of money you make OVER $1,000,000. It goes incrementally up as you get more and more past the median wage and it's attached to the cost of living so that it would never, ever have to be changed.

Our government cannot survive on less that a 35% tax on every dime made in this country. The only solution is to tax those who make the most more than those who make the least.

Although, if we completely stopped all foreign aid, we might be able to get that percentage down quite a bit.

 

[DiamondDave]

I disagree, because those couples that earn about 20k a year, don't owe taxes on that 20k due to standard deductions and exemptions, and those of us couples that make a lot more, including millionaires, DO NOT PAY any taxes on that first 20 k earned....there is nothing UNFAIR or UNEQUAL about that Dave?

It is a disguised PROGRESSIVE TAX SYSTEM.... I have broken down the inherent percentages it bring about before... if you want, I will do it AGAIN... and a progressive system, by definition, is unequal treatment...

I guess fair is subjective. I think it's fair for those who have more to pay more. Some think that someone who inherits $10 billion but doesn't do a lick of work in his life should pay nothing while someone who works his ass off for $10,000 a year should pay $1,000 in taxes.....

That 10BIL was already taxed.... it is a family asset... we do not tax assets.. we tax income... if that person invests that 10BIL and earns interest on it or capital gains from investments, THAT IS INCOME... and if that 10BIL is in some form of anything besides cash, when those assets are sold, that is capital gains and that is taxed... if it remains within the family (spouse, kids, grandkids, great grandkids) I think no inheritance should be taxed.. the death tax is bullshit (and I am one who will get nothing and who never get anything from my elder family members)

I think fairness needs to get the fuck out of government and get replaced by equality in treatment

 

[Lonestar_logic]

FAIR is SUBJECTIVE.. we are talking about equality in treatment

It does not fall apart.. that is plain idiocy.... what a ramped up floor does is nothing more than create a disguised PROGRESSIVE SYSTEM

Person A earns 15K, gets taxed on none and pays a 0% rate on all money earned in the year
Person B earns 25K, gets taxed on 5K at say a 20% rate, which equates to a 4% rate on all money earned in the year
Person C earns 50K, gets taxed on 30K at a 20%, which equates to a 12% rate on all money earned in the year
Person D earns 100K, gets taxed on 80K at 20%, which equates to a 16% rate on all money earned in the year
Person E earns 1MIL, gets taxed on 980K at 20%, which equates to a 19.6% rate on all money earned in the year

BY DEFINITION A PROGRESSIVE TAX IS UNEQUAL TREATMENT BY GOVERNMENT UNDER LAW... this is not in error, this is not debatable, this is pure unadulterated fact

I agree... THe progressive tax is bullshit.

But what's wrong with 20% after 10k.... It's not progressive. It's one shot done. NOBODY gets taxed on the first 10k... That's fair... yes?

In my scenario, no one got taxed on the first $20,000 and they didn't think that was fair. the percentage went up in increments, but each increment was separate. IE, everybody is taxed the same on the same amount of money, just that those that make a higher amount of money pay a higher percentage on the more they make over a certain amount. Our economy did much better when the highest tax rated was 70% and mw had the highest spending power in history. my 70% would only be on the amount of money you make OVER $1,000,000. It goes incrementally up as you get more and more past the median wage and it's attached to the cost of living so that it would never, ever have to be changed.

Our government cannot survive on less that a 35% tax on every dime made in this country. The only solution is to tax those who make the most more than those who make the least.

Although, if we completely stopped all foreign aid, we might be able to get that percentage down quite a bit.

It could if it stopped spending and we cut the size of govt..

 

[DiamondDave]

It is a disguised PROGRESSIVE TAX SYSTEM.... I have broken down the inherent percentages it bring about before... if you want, I will do it AGAIN... and a progressive system, by definition, is unequal treatment...

I guess fair is subjective. I think it's fair for those who have more to pay more. Some think that someone who inherits $10 billion but doesn't do a lick of work in his life should pay nothing while someone who works his ass off for $10,000 a year should pay $1,000 in taxes.....

So you're saying the more you make the more you should pay. Which is basically punishing success.

And I believe under Dave's plan the person making $10,000 a year would pay $0.00 in federal income tax.

No... I do not believe in a salary floor for taxation, as shown... I believe in the simple flat tax with no deductions, no exemptions, no exceptions, no loopholes, etc.. income is income... capital gains, income.. salary, income.. dividend, income... etc

I believe in that in combination with huge cuts in government spending to lower tax burden of the populace.. there is no need for the size, spending, reach, of leviathan government we have now

 

[DiamondDave]

I agree... THe progressive tax is bullshit.

But what's wrong with 20% after 10k.... It's not progressive. It's one shot done. NOBODY gets taxed on the first 10k... That's fair... yes?

Are you an IDIOT??

Opinions vary.

I just showed you where the salary floor addition MAKES IT A DISGUISED PROGRESSIVE TAX....

No you didn't. I understand that you think you did.

No.. I showed you and everyone, AGAIN, where the salary floor does nothing other than create a progressive system of tax rates on all income.... this is not debatable.. this is not opinion... the math shows you exactly what it is... you just do not want to believe it

 

[DiamondDave]

FAIR is SUBJECTIVE.. we are talking about equality in treatment

It does not fall apart.. that is plain idiocy.... what a ramped up floor does is nothing more than create a disguised PROGRESSIVE SYSTEM

Person A earns 15K, gets taxed on none and pays a 0% rate on all money earned in the year
Person B earns 25K, gets taxed on 5K at say a 20% rate, which equates to a 4% rate on all money earned in the year
Person C earns 50K, gets taxed on 30K at a 20%, which equates to a 12% rate on all money earned in the year
Person D earns 100K, gets taxed on 80K at 20%, which equates to a 16% rate on all money earned in the year
Person E earns 1MIL, gets taxed on 980K at 20%, which equates to a 19.6% rate on all money earned in the year

BY DEFINITION A PROGRESSIVE TAX IS UNEQUAL TREATMENT BY GOVERNMENT UNDER LAW... this is not in error, this is not debatable, this is pure unadulterated fact

I agree... THe progressive tax is bullshit.

But what's wrong with 20% after 10k.... It's not progressive. It's one shot done. NOBODY gets taxed on the first 10k... That's fair... yes?

In my scenario, no one got taxed on the first $20,000 and they didn't think that was fair. the percentage went up in increments, but each increment was separate. IE, everybody is taxed the same on the same amount of money, just that those that make a higher amount of money pay a higher percentage on the more they make over a certain amount. Our economy did much better when the highest tax rated was 70% and mw had the highest spending power in history. my 70% would only be on the amount of money you make OVER $1,000,000. It goes incrementally up as you get more and more past the median wage and it's attached to the cost of living so that it would never, ever have to be changed.

Our government cannot survive on less that a 35% tax on every dime made in this country. The only solution is to tax those who make the most more than those who make the least.

Although, if we completely stopped all foreign aid, we might be able to get that percentage down quite a bit.

You THINK it was FAIR based on what you SUBJECTIVELY want to see happen in outcome because of situations of individuals based on countless criteria.... you and other like you cannot get over this touchy feely bullshit subjective fairness concept

And PLEASE, for the love of god, don't be like the rest of the progressives and leave out the things including what was considered income, what was deductible, etc when those rates LOOKED higher

And as we see in bold, you openly admit you support unequal treatment when it benefits you or the cause you support.... setting the precedent for unequal treatment in other areas as well... so if you scream about wanting equality in another area, sorry Charlie, your hypocritical ass does not get to do that... YOU set the precedent

"Our government cannot survive on less that a 35% tax on every dime made in this country." and this is why our government has to change away from what it is currently doing... it has grown into an unsustainable leviathan with reach and power into areas where it has no business.... and this was all done under the guise of SUBJECTIVE FAIRNESS, and using that for its own power grab... and you have taken it hook, line, and sinker.... government can be cut drastically in many areas, and brought down to a reasonable level where you do not need 35% of all that is earned confiscated in taxation to feed its own power and red tape

 

[Shelzin]

FAIR is SUBJECTIVE.. we are talking about equality in treatment

It does not fall apart.. that is plain idiocy.... what a ramped up floor does is nothing more than create a disguised PROGRESSIVE SYSTEM

Person A earns 15K, gets taxed on none and pays a 0% rate on all money earned in the year
Person B earns 25K, gets taxed on 5K at say a 20% rate, which equates to a 4% rate on all money earned in the year
Person C earns 50K, gets taxed on 30K at a 20%, which equates to a 12% rate on all money earned in the year
Person D earns 100K, gets taxed on 80K at 20%, which equates to a 16% rate on all money earned in the year
Person E earns 1MIL, gets taxed on 980K at 20%, which equates to a 19.6% rate on all money earned in the year

BY DEFINITION A PROGRESSIVE TAX IS UNEQUAL TREATMENT BY GOVERNMENT UNDER LAW... this is not in error, this is not debatable, this is pure unadulterated fact

I agree... THe progressive tax is bullshit.

But what's wrong with 20% after 10k.... It's not progressive. It's one shot done. NOBODY gets taxed on the first 10k... That's fair... yes?

In my scenario, no one got taxed on the first $20,000 and they didn't think that was fair. the percentage went up in increments, but each increment was separate. IE, everybody is taxed the same on the same amount of money, just that those that make a higher amount of money pay a higher percentage on the more they make over a certain amount. Our economy did much better when the highest tax rated was 70% and mw had the highest spending power in history. my 70% would only be on the amount of money you make OVER $1,000,000. It goes incrementally up as you get more and more past the median wage and it's attached to the cost of living so that it would never, ever have to be changed.

Our government cannot survive on less that a 35% tax on every dime made in this country. The only solution is to tax those who make the most more than those who make the least.

Although, if we completely stopped all foreign aid, we might be able to get that percentage down quite a bit.

Ok... Here's where I stand.

You and I agree that there should be a living wage that isn't taxed. And that's about it as far comparison with DD.

DD and I agree that the percentage of income tax should be the same for everybody... And that's about it as far as comparison with you.

Democrat, Republican, Independent. ( Tongue in cheek, I have no idea what your political affiliations are... but this is how it feels to me on this topic )

 

[Shelzin]

Are you an IDIOT??

Opinions vary.

I just showed you where the salary floor addition MAKES IT A DISGUISED PROGRESSIVE TAX....

No you didn't. I understand that you think you did.

No.. I showed you and everyone, AGAIN, where the salary floor does nothing other than create a progressive system of tax rates on all income.... this is not debatable.. this is not opinion... the math shows you exactly what it is... you just do not want to believe it

No... I'm smart enough to know you can't tax someone who has nothing to be taxed, which is why I don't make it into a two tier system when there is only one tax bracket.

 

[GoneBezerk]

Dumbass...some person getting inheritance from their father has to wait for the DEATH TAX to steal some money from the pile before he can get it.

Also, most times inheritance is in the form of land, stocks, bonds, etc....not cold hard cash like you babble about....so the Govt gets their property taxes and capital gains taxes from the person that ends up with the assets.

So shut the hell up about the "poor" not getting a fair shot because their daddy was a bum unlike someone like Romney's dad. That is life, you are born to the parents you get....the Govt doesn't get to step in and give you the game like the refs did last night on MNF.

Deal with it and shut up.

I disagree, because those couples that earn about 20k a year, don't owe taxes on that 20k due to standard deductions and exemptions, and those of us couples that make a lot more, including millionaires, DO NOT PAY any taxes on that first 20 k earned....there is nothing UNFAIR or UNEQUAL about that Dave?

It is a disguised PROGRESSIVE TAX SYSTEM.... I have broken down the inherent percentages it bring about before... if you want, I will do it AGAIN... and a progressive system, by definition, is unequal treatment...

I guess fair is subjective. I think it's fair for those who have more to pay more. Some think that someone who inherits $10 billion but doesn't do a lick of work in his life should pay nothing while someone who works his ass off for $10,000 a year should pay $1,000 in taxes.....

 

[DiamondDave]

Opinions vary.


No you didn't. I understand that you think you did.

No.. I showed you and everyone, AGAIN, where the salary floor does nothing other than create a progressive system of tax rates on all income.... this is not debatable.. this is not opinion... the math shows you exactly what it is... you just do not want to believe it

No... I'm smart enough to know you can't tax someone who has nothing to be taxed, which is why I don't make it into a two tier system when there is only one tax bracket.

Nothing is ZERO.... by definition... $1 is not zero, by definition....

A floor does NOT make a 2 tier system.. it makes a multi tiered system based on increasing income (as I showed, definitively)... which is... wait for it... wait for it.... A PROGRESSIVE SYSTEM...

And it is not that people earning less cannot be taxed, it is because you don't want them to be taxed (or taxed the same) because of how you FEEL about their personal situation.... **cough SUBJECTIVE cough**

You can say one thing til you are blue in the face... you do not get to change what it is... you simply do, in fact, support progressive taxation.. this is truth.. this is not pulling it out of the air to just insult you.. it is what it is... you can call a dog a flower all you want, and state up and down how it looks in your eyes, it does not change what it truly is

 

[Shelzin]

No.. I showed you and everyone, AGAIN, where the salary floor does nothing other than create a progressive system of tax rates on all income.... this is not debatable.. this is not opinion... the math shows you exactly what it is... you just do not want to believe it

No... I'm smart enough to know you can't tax someone who has nothing to be taxed, which is why I don't make it into a two tier system when there is only one tax bracket.

Nothing is ZERO.... by definition... $1 is not zero, by definition....

A floor does NOT make a 2 tier system.. it makes a multi tiered system based on increasing income (as I showed, definitively)... which is... wait for it... wait for it.... A PROGRESSIVE SYSTEM...

And it is not that people earning less cannot be taxed, it is because you don't want them to be taxed (or taxed the same) because of how you FEEL about their personal situation.... **cough SUBJECTIVE cough**

You can say one thing til you are blue in the face... you do not get to change what it is... you simply do, in fact, support progressive taxation.. this is truth.. this is not pulling it out of the air to just insult you.. it is what it is... you can call a dog a flower all you want, and state up and down how it looks in your eyes, it does not change what it truly is

No... I'm smart enough to know you can't tax someone who has nothing to be taxed, which is why I don't make it into a two tier system when there is only one tax bracket.

Edit: You can be just as pissed off as you want to be... but it won't change anything.

 

[GoneBezerk]

Liberals continue to show off their stupidity claiming a person that inherits $10 BILLION, like that exists, pays no taxes.

They somehow don't pay property taxes on the land they inherit.

They don't pay taxes on the luxury plane, cars, jewelry, etc they buy with all that money.

They don't pay Capital Gains taxes on their assets...but of course they really, really got $10B in CASH according to liberals.

Nevermind their rich daddy and mommy dying giving the Govt the DEATH TAX money before Junior can get his hands on that $10B. So how much is left of that $10B once the DEATH TAX takes some of it....

But, but in the end it is really unfair that Junior gets all that money from his dead parents and the guy across town has to work at McDonalds for a living.....so unfair. The liberal solution is to take all of Junior's money so he has to go work at McDonalds....