What is it that ideas and people are 'left' or 'right' of?

[cnm]

The US was founded on the sanctity of individual rights

Hilarity. The individual right to own slaves? You guys don't even recognise when you drink your own propaganda.

 

[cnm]

Freeways and freedom do not mean the same thing, Idiot

The freeways are a result of the collective, not the individual, dumb fuck rightard. No one was free to escape contributing to the freeways. The freeways were not free.

 

[Tehon]

As time has passed, many nouns and descriptions have become so over-used as to have at best very vague meanings.
'Right' and 'left' originally referred to positions with a monarch at the center. Today, what do 'right' and 'left' mean? In relation to what do they derive their orientation?

Generally speaking, if you believe we need more government involvement in our lives, you are to the left. If you believe we need less government intervention in our lives, you are to the right.

That is a modern American interpretation of the dichotomy that bares no resemblance to its origins and makes no sense. That would place Marx, who envisions the state withering away, on the right.

We are agreed, just the same, that this is to explore what people here today mean when they use certain words. We want to identify what it is we are saying to our contemporaries when we use their terms.

The modern American conservative has redefined the dichotomy in relation to the Constitution instead of the monarchy. The Constitution was configured to limit the scope of government and some of those on the right wish to adhere to a strict interpretation of it, thereby limiting the size of government. I get what they are saying.
But it seems incompatible with our modern capitalist society.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Sure. Evolution.

Revolutions can be a messy business. Would you prefer to live under a monarch or in a liberal democracy?

how about a republic ?

Same thing.

No it's not.

Representative democracy is an example of a liberal democracy.

A republic has very distinct differences from a democracy

 

[Skull Pilot]

Freeways and freedom do not mean the same thing, Idiot

The freeways are a result of the collective, not the individual, dumb fuck rightard. No one was free to escape contributing to the freeways. The freeways were not free.

The US highway system was a defense project first and foremost

And the fact that taxes are used to build shit in no way diminishes the individual and individual rights as more important than the collective

 

[Skull Pilot]

As time has passed, many nouns and descriptions have become so over-used as to have at best very vague meanings.
'Right' and 'left' originally referred to positions with a monarch at the center. Today, what do 'right' and 'left' mean? In relation to what do they derive their orientation?

Social evolution.

I don't think the monarch was the axis. It was social evolution. In the original meaning, the monarch and those seated to the right were impediments to social evolution. I don't think much has changed.

Sure. Evolution.

Revolutions can be a messy business. Would you prefer to live under a monarch or in a liberal democracy?

how about a republic ?

Would you say that 'democracy' is to the 'left' of 'republican' (honest question, no subterfuge)?

Left and right are meaningless terms.

We are a republic not a democracy

In a democracy the minority is subject to the whims of the majority.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Sure. Evolution.

Revolutions can be a messy business. Would you prefer to live under a monarch or in a liberal democracy?

how about a republic ?

Same thing.

No it's not.

Not to get personal, but did you stamp your foot as you wrote that?

I'll leave that to little girls like you

 

[Tehon]

Revolutions can be a messy business. Would you prefer to live under a monarch or in a liberal democracy?

how about a republic ?

Same thing.

No it's not.

Representative democracy is an example of a liberal democracy.

A republic has very distinct differences from a democracy

 

[danielpalos]

why should we take the right wing seriously about welfare spending; they can't follow their own Republican Doctrine.

 

[there4eyeM]

The individual always trumps the collective

Yeah, right.

It's true

The US was founded on the sanctity of individual rights

I know that's an alien thought to sheep like you

We can hardly state that the 'sanctity of individual rights' we feel today is the same as in 1776.
'Rights' and 'equal' obviously meant for non-debtor white men back then. Women were second class citizens at most, "Indians" and others perhaps not even human.
Again, this illustrates the development of meanings.

 

[cnm]

A republic has very distinct differences from a democracy

This bullshit again. It never ends.

democracy 1 a form of government in which the people govern themselves or elect representatives to govern them. 2 a country, state or other body with such a form of government.​

 

[cnm]

And the fact that taxes are used to build shit in no way diminishes the individual and individual rights as more important than the collective

It started here, I think...

The individual always trumps the collective

Did you leave some words out of that pablum? Otherwise, you must believe you should have the right to opt out of the common good as well as the right to opt out of paying for it. True?

 

[cnm]

After all, you are restricted by the laws of your country, which effectively are determined by 'the collective' for the common good. I think General welfare is the term used.

 

[Tehon]

Social evolution.

I don't think the monarch was the axis. It was social evolution. In the original meaning, the monarch and those seated to the right were impediments to social evolution. I don't think much has changed.

Sure. Evolution.

Revolutions can be a messy business. Would you prefer to live under a monarch or in a liberal democracy?

how about a republic ?

Would you say that 'democracy' is to the 'left' of 'republican' (honest question, no subterfuge)?

Left and right are meaningless terms.

We are a republic not a democracy

In a democracy the minority is subject to the whims of the majority.

The terms left and right have had meaning since the late 18th century.

Our republican form of government is considered democratic even though it is not a direct democracy. Democracy simply means rule by the people. Whether that is undertaken by representation or directly does not alter the premise that the people have a say in their governance.

I would say that direct democracy is to the left of republicanism.

 

[there4eyeM]

Sure. Evolution.

Revolutions can be a messy business. Would you prefer to live under a monarch or in a liberal democracy?

how about a republic ?

Would you say that 'democracy' is to the 'left' of 'republican' (honest question, no subterfuge)?

Left and right are meaningless terms.

We are a republic not a democracy

In a democracy the minority is subject to the whims of the majority.

The terms left and right have had meaning since the late 18th century.

Our republican form of government is considered democratic even though it is not a direct democracy. Democracy simply means rule by the people. Whether that is undertaken by representation or directly does not alter the premise that the people have a say in their governance.

I would say that direct democracy is to the left of republicanism.

Thanks for the clarity reference. This helps identify, perhaps, that 'left' is what accords with popular and 'right' accords with 'established'.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The individual always trumps the collective

Yeah, right.

It's true

The US was founded on the sanctity of individual rights

I know that's an alien thought to sheep like you

We can hardly state that the 'sanctity of individual rights' we feel today is the same as in 1776.
'Rights' and 'equal' obviously meant for non-debtor white men back then. Women were second class citizens at most, "Indians" and others perhaps not even human.
Again, this illustrates the development of meanings.

Not really all it signifies is the realization that individual liberties encompass all people not just some.

The basic tenet is not changed but the application has been expanded and rightly so

 

[Skull Pilot]

Sure. Evolution.

Revolutions can be a messy business. Would you prefer to live under a monarch or in a liberal democracy?

how about a republic ?

Would you say that 'democracy' is to the 'left' of 'republican' (honest question, no subterfuge)?

Left and right are meaningless terms.

We are a republic not a democracy

In a democracy the minority is subject to the whims of the majority.

The terms left and right have had meaning since the late 18th century.

Our republican form of government is considered democratic even though it is not a direct democracy. Democracy simply means rule by the people. Whether that is undertaken by representation or directly does not alter the premise that the people have a say in their governance.

I would say that direct democracy is to the left of republicanism.

I would say you are wrong

A democracy in the literal sense allows the majority to run rough shod over the minority

A republic is bound by law to not let that happen

If you want to say the term left has a liberal connotation the it is obvious that a republic protects the rights and liberties of the minority better than a democracy ever could

 

[Skull Pilot]

A republic has very distinct differences from a democracy

This bullshit again. It never ends.

democracy 1 a form of government in which the people govern themselves or elect representatives to govern them. 2 a country, state or other body with such a form of government.​

Democracy vs Republic - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

 

[Skull Pilot]

And the fact that taxes are used to build shit in no way diminishes the individual and individual rights as more important than the collective

It started here, I think...

The individual always trumps the collective

Did you leave some words out of that pablum? Otherwise, you must believe you should have the right to opt out of the common good as well as the right to opt out of paying for it. True?

I have the absolute option to opt out by leaving the country.

I choose to live here thus I choose to obey the laws which means I pay taxes even when I disagree with the misuse of those tax dollars

 

[Cellblock2429]

The individual always trumps the collective

Yeah, right.

It's true

The US was founded on the sanctity of individual rights

I know that's an alien thought to sheep like you

We can hardly state that the 'sanctity of individual rights' we feel today is the same as in 1776.
'Rights' and 'equal' obviously meant for non-debtor white men back then. Women were second class citizens at most, "Indians" and others perhaps not even human.
Again, this illustrates the development of meanings.

Not really all it signifies is the realization that individual liberties encompass all people not just some.

The basic tenet is not changed but the application has been expanded and rightly so

/——/ Except for white men who are presumed guilty until they prove themselves innocent and even then they are still guilty