What IS The Free Market

[kaz]

If your car is parked in your neighbor's driveway and your neighbor has the keys and the car can only be driven when and where your neighbor wants, is it actually your car?

Yes.

Well, there you go, that's your delusion

Huh?

Let's put it this way... If some lib comes on and says there's no difference between socialism and capitalism, would you agree?

Socialism is the opposite of capitalism, a command economy is one form of socialism. How does that question make sense?

Some forms of socialism may involve state capitalism, and mixed economies can involve some aspects of socialism.

Yes, I didn't say an economy has to be purely one or the other. A segment of the economy pretty much does though. Private enterprises can't compete with the referee

 

[bripat9643]

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

So why do no nations practice laissez faire capitalism?

in the case of China, so liberalism won't slowly starve another 60 million human beings to death but rather will make them rich. Rich is far better than starving to death.

So is China practicing laissez faire capitalism?

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

So has anyone come up with a definition for a free market as yet?

It's in the dictionary.
free market: an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government

The dictionary is no more useful in defining a 'free market' than it is for defining inflation or economic growth. Again, a free market is the private ownership of the means of production and the absence of government intervention. Government intervention includes regulation, prohibition, taxation, a monopoly of the money supply, or anything else the government does that alters the value choices of anyone that participates in the market.

Your definition is rife with emotion. The dictionary definition is better.

The dictionary is not the final authority on the meaning of economic terms. They are just the meanings that the man-in-the-street applies to them. Clinging to the dictionary definition is an indication that you don't have a clue what the fuck you're talking about.

 

[regent]

So then are most agreed that the present US economic system is a mixed economy, and as a nation we have never had a totally free capitalistic economy?

 

[bripat9643]

So then are most agreed that the present US economic system is a mixed economy, and as a nation we have never had a totally free capitalistic economy?

We have had very close to it. Why do you think that matters? What does it prove?

 

[regent]

Only that perhaps some ignorance has fallen by the wayside. If citizens are going to participate in our government the better they know the better the nation.

 

[TC_Triple3]

Only that perhaps some ignorance has fallen by the wayside. If citizens are going to participate in our government the better they know the better the nation.

That's exactly the point I was going to make. These are the very same questioned I asked, keep asking them. You can save yourself some time by starting with 'value'. Understanding the theory of value and why EVERYTHING you do is a value choice, then everything else after that will make more sense. Value, Money and Credit, Capital and Interest, and the Business Cycle, these are core ideas.

The law of Comparative Advantage helps too. You will understand why cooperation in market economy leads to greater prosperity and quality of life.

Comparative Advantage Economics by Topic Library of Economics and Liberty

 

[RKMBrown]

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

in the case of China, so liberalism won't slowly starve another 60 million human beings to death but rather will make them rich. Rich is far better than starving to death.

So is China practicing laissez faire capitalism?

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

So has anyone come up with a definition for a free market as yet?

It's in the dictionary.
free market: an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government

The dictionary is no more useful in defining a 'free market' than it is for defining inflation or economic growth. Again, a free market is the private ownership of the means of production and the absence of government intervention. Government intervention includes regulation, prohibition, taxation, a monopoly of the money supply, or anything else the government does that alters the value choices of anyone that participates in the market.

Your definition is rife with emotion. The dictionary definition is better.

There is no emotion in my definition.

Does the government 'set' prices in the auto industry? No.
Does government regulation in the auto industry affect price? Yes.
Does government regulation in the health care industry affect price? Yes.
Does government regulation in the education sector affect price? Yes.
Does an increase in the volume of money affect price? Yes
Does taxation affect price? Yes,
Does prohibition affect price? Yes.

Look at any industry sector where prices continually rise and I will show you abundant government intervention. Why do prices in the consumer electronics sector drop over time?

Yes there is emotion in y our definition.


Does the government 'set' prices in the auto industry? Yes, by bailing out GM, and a few others, by installing czars they set in charge of profit margins bonus structures and such for said bailed out companies, by buying cars to destroy them, by mandating car insurance, registration fees, gas tax, .... all these things affect the cost of a car to the consumer. Put another way, government mandates the minimum floor cost to consumers/users of autos.

Price drop in consumer electronics is a mixed bag. Some fall others don't. The cost to manufacture the products has come down.

 

[RKMBrown]

No, that's reality. Socialism, as implemented, has always meant a command economy. There has never been any other real tangible form of socialism in recorded history. A command economy fits the definition of socialism, so it's socialism by definition. How can a command economy be anything other than socialism?

well I suppose a dictatorship could be considered a command economy. A dictator just doesn't make such a big show about how he's commanding the economy for the benefit of the people the way a socialist would.

Not really. Some dictators, like Stalin, choose to control the all the minutia of an economy, and some, like Pinochet, don't. Whether a dictator practices socialism or not is up to the dictator.

Exactly, the final say is government. Just like China, they are allowing capitalism to a large extent, but it's not truly capitalism for that reason. In the end, government doesn't approve and they overrule. you.

You mean like health care?

If you're referring to Obamacare then yes, that's pure socialism now since government says what plan is acceptable and what isn't.

You say that like there's a point for you in that

We were talking about mixed systems vs the definitions of terms that you were saying mean the same thing. Just because you can make a mutt with two breeds does not make both breeds the same thing.

 

[RKMBrown]

Command based economic system is a centrally planned economy, that is socialism by definition. You are claiming government can own all assets and the economy can not be socialist, which is ridiculous, as is your saying socialism isn't socialism

So basically you are either incapable of telling the difference, such as between apples and oranges cause they are both food, or you are missing the subtleties of my statements. Let's try to come about this differently. How about you tell us what the difference is between command based economy and socialism. Cause you appear to be having a problem with the term "is" so maybe we can start with "is not" first. Or maybe you could go out on a crusade to stop use of the term command based economic system since by your definition it's just a waste of words where socialism is better used for that term. Hell for that matter maybe you could join up with firefox in defining all the terms you don't like, such as progressive, leftist, communist, liberal, democrat, .... as all meaning the same thing.

Well asshole, there are a lot of forms of socialism. Socialism isn't a monkey, it's a mammal. Command based is a monkey. Your argument boils down to no it's not a mammal, it's a monkey.

Socialism is a centrally planned economy, There are communist socialists, democracy based socialists, Kibitzes, command based economies, fascists, but they are all socialists, they all centrally planned economies.

We do have the answer to bripat's question though, you didn't know what socialism means, you thought there was only one form of it. There isn't even only one form of it in modern governments so I don't know how you thought that. Personally I think you're smarter than that and you're being obstinate because of the stick up your butt. Maybe you should focus on pulling it out instead off digging deeper into stupid

Again, you don't seem to understand what the term "is" means. If socialism was a centrally planned economy, then there would be no need for the term socialism. But again your definitions are completely fucking wrong.

Websters: Socialism is a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies.

Websters: A command economy is an economic system in which activity is controlled by a central authority and the means of production are publicly owned.

NOTE THE USE OF THE TERM IS.

Now you CITE TO YOUR SOURCE FOR YOUR fucked up DEFINITION OF SOCIALISM and your fucked up definition of command economy.

A command economy can consists of private enterprises or can take place in mixed economy:

Planned economy - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

It can be seen as a variant of socialism or of capitalism:

State capitalism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The economy is centrally planned, in that case private ownership is irrelevant since you have to use your assets according to the State policies. What is the point of having a car deed in your name if you don't get to control when or where you drive the car? There is none, it's not actual ownership

So it's not your car if you have to stop at a stop sign?

 

[RKMBrown]

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

in the case of China, so liberalism won't slowly starve another 60 million human beings to death but rather will make them rich. Rich is far better than starving to death.

So is China practicing laissez faire capitalism?

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

So has anyone come up with a definition for a free market as yet?

It's in the dictionary.
free market: an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government

The dictionary is no more useful in defining a 'free market' than it is for defining inflation or economic growth. Again, a free market is the private ownership of the means of production and the absence of government intervention. Government intervention includes regulation, prohibition, taxation, a monopoly of the money supply, or anything else the government does that alters the value choices of anyone that participates in the market.

Your definition is rife with emotion. The dictionary definition is better.

The dictionary is not the final authority on the meaning of economic terms. They are just the meanings that the man-in-the-street applies to them. Clinging to the dictionary definition is an indication that you don't have a clue what the fuck you're talking about.

ROFL ROFL ROFL... stop it your killing me. You heard it here folks we're all supposed to speak in "Bripat's" new language. He'll be sending us new definitions for every word real soon now, till then just take all the notes you can.

 

[bripat9643]

So basically you are either incapable of telling the difference, such as between apples and oranges cause they are both food, or you are missing the subtleties of my statements. Let's try to come about this differently. How about you tell us what the difference is between command based economy and socialism. Cause you appear to be having a problem with the term "is" so maybe we can start with "is not" first. Or maybe you could go out on a crusade to stop use of the term command based economic system since by your definition it's just a waste of words where socialism is better used for that term. Hell for that matter maybe you could join up with firefox in defining all the terms you don't like, such as progressive, leftist, communist, liberal, democrat, .... as all meaning the same thing.

Well asshole, there are a lot of forms of socialism. Socialism isn't a monkey, it's a mammal. Command based is a monkey. Your argument boils down to no it's not a mammal, it's a monkey.

Socialism is a centrally planned economy, There are communist socialists, democracy based socialists, Kibitzes, command based economies, fascists, but they are all socialists, they all centrally planned economies.

We do have the answer to bripat's question though, you didn't know what socialism means, you thought there was only one form of it. There isn't even only one form of it in modern governments so I don't know how you thought that. Personally I think you're smarter than that and you're being obstinate because of the stick up your butt. Maybe you should focus on pulling it out instead off digging deeper into stupid

Again, you don't seem to understand what the term "is" means. If socialism was a centrally planned economy, then there would be no need for the term socialism. But again your definitions are completely fucking wrong.

Websters: Socialism is a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies.

Websters: A command economy is an economic system in which activity is controlled by a central authority and the means of production are publicly owned.

NOTE THE USE OF THE TERM IS.

Now you CITE TO YOUR SOURCE FOR YOUR fucked up DEFINITION OF SOCIALISM and your fucked up definition of command economy.

A command economy can consists of private enterprises or can take place in mixed economy:

Planned economy - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

It can be seen as a variant of socialism or of capitalism:

State capitalism - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The economy is centrally planned, in that case private ownership is irrelevant since you have to use your assets according to the State policies. What is the point of having a car deed in your name if you don't get to control when or where you drive the car? There is none, it's not actual ownership

So it's not your car if you have to stop at a stop sign?

No, it's not your road.

 

[bripat9643]

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

So is China practicing laissez faire capitalism?

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

So has anyone come up with a definition for a free market as yet?

It's in the dictionary.
free market: an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government

The dictionary is no more useful in defining a 'free market' than it is for defining inflation or economic growth. Again, a free market is the private ownership of the means of production and the absence of government intervention. Government intervention includes regulation, prohibition, taxation, a monopoly of the money supply, or anything else the government does that alters the value choices of anyone that participates in the market.

Your definition is rife with emotion. The dictionary definition is better.

The dictionary is not the final authority on the meaning of economic terms. They are just the meanings that the man-in-the-street applies to them. Clinging to the dictionary definition is an indication that you don't have a clue what the fuck you're talking about.

ROFL ROFL ROFL... stop it your killing me. You heard it here folks we're all supposed to speak in "Bripat's" new language. He'll be sending us new definitions for every word real soon now, till then just take all the notes you can.

It's not my language. It's the language economists use. Only congenital ignoramuses believe the dictionary is the final authority in scientific fields. When you use words specific to your profession, they have very specific meanings that often differ from common usage.

All you've proven is that you're a boob from the provinces who doesn't of life in the big city.

 

[bripat9643]

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

So is China practicing laissez faire capitalism?

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

So has anyone come up with a definition for a free market as yet?

It's in the dictionary.
free market: an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government

The dictionary is no more useful in defining a 'free market' than it is for defining inflation or economic growth. Again, a free market is the private ownership of the means of production and the absence of government intervention. Government intervention includes regulation, prohibition, taxation, a monopoly of the money supply, or anything else the government does that alters the value choices of anyone that participates in the market.

Your definition is rife with emotion. The dictionary definition is better.

There is no emotion in my definition.

Does the government 'set' prices in the auto industry? No.
Does government regulation in the auto industry affect price? Yes.
Does government regulation in the health care industry affect price? Yes.
Does government regulation in the education sector affect price? Yes.
Does an increase in the volume of money affect price? Yes
Does taxation affect price? Yes,
Does prohibition affect price? Yes.

Look at any industry sector where prices continually rise and I will show you abundant government intervention. Why do prices in the consumer electronics sector drop over time?

Yes there is emotion in y our definition.


Does the government 'set' prices in the auto industry? Yes, by bailing out GM, and a few others, by installing czars they set in charge of profit margins bonus structures and such for said bailed out companies, by buying cars to destroy them, by mandating car insurance, registration fees, gas tax, .... all these things affect the cost of a car to the consumer. Put another way, government mandates the minimum floor cost to consumers/users of autos..

Your making his point. The auto industry is partially socialized. Government makes a lot of the decisions that private firms would normally make.

[Price drop in consumer electronics is a mixed bag. Some fall others don't. The cost to manufacture the products has come down.

Name one electronics product where the price has increased since it was conceived.

 

[RKMBrown]

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

It's in the dictionary.
free market: an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government

The dictionary is no more useful in defining a 'free market' than it is for defining inflation or economic growth. Again, a free market is the private ownership of the means of production and the absence of government intervention. Government intervention includes regulation, prohibition, taxation, a monopoly of the money supply, or anything else the government does that alters the value choices of anyone that participates in the market.

Your definition is rife with emotion. The dictionary definition is better.

There is no emotion in my definition.

Does the government 'set' prices in the auto industry? No.
Does government regulation in the auto industry affect price? Yes.
Does government regulation in the health care industry affect price? Yes.
Does government regulation in the education sector affect price? Yes.
Does an increase in the volume of money affect price? Yes
Does taxation affect price? Yes,
Does prohibition affect price? Yes.

Look at any industry sector where prices continually rise and I will show you abundant government intervention. Why do prices in the consumer electronics sector drop over time?

Yes there is emotion in y our definition.


Does the government 'set' prices in the auto industry? Yes, by bailing out GM, and a few others, by installing czars they set in charge of profit margins bonus structures and such for said bailed out companies, by buying cars to destroy them, by mandating car insurance, registration fees, gas tax, .... all these things affect the cost of a car to the consumer. Put another way, government mandates the minimum floor cost to consumers/users of autos..

Your making his point. The auto industry is partially socialized. Government makes a lot of the decisions that private firms would normally make.

[Price drop in consumer electronics is a mixed bag. Some fall others don't. The cost to manufacture the products has come down.

Name one electronics product where the price has increased since it was conceived.

No I was making my point.

Name one product: Ok the digital watch.

 

[RKMBrown]

The first digital watch was $2,100
The price fell to a couple bucks...
Now it's heading up as the desired features of the standard digital watch goes up.
Same thing happens to other types of consumer products. Look at homes. Products change over time.

 

[bripat9643]

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens
The dictionary is no more useful in defining a 'free market' than it is for defining inflation or economic growth. Again, a free market is the private ownership of the means of production and the absence of government intervention. Government intervention includes regulation, prohibition, taxation, a monopoly of the money supply, or anything else the government does that alters the value choices of anyone that participates in the market.

Your definition is rife with emotion. The dictionary definition is better.

There is no emotion in my definition.

Does the government 'set' prices in the auto industry? No.
Does government regulation in the auto industry affect price? Yes.
Does government regulation in the health care industry affect price? Yes.
Does government regulation in the education sector affect price? Yes.
Does an increase in the volume of money affect price? Yes
Does taxation affect price? Yes,
Does prohibition affect price? Yes.

Look at any industry sector where prices continually rise and I will show you abundant government intervention. Why do prices in the consumer electronics sector drop over time?

Yes there is emotion in y our definition.


Does the government 'set' prices in the auto industry? Yes, by bailing out GM, and a few others, by installing czars they set in charge of profit margins bonus structures and such for said bailed out companies, by buying cars to destroy them, by mandating car insurance, registration fees, gas tax, .... all these things affect the cost of a car to the consumer. Put another way, government mandates the minimum floor cost to consumers/users of autos..

Your making his point. The auto industry is partially socialized. Government makes a lot of the decisions that private firms would normally make.

[Price drop in consumer electronics is a mixed bag. Some fall others don't. The cost to manufacture the products has come down.

Name one electronics product where the price has increased since it was conceived.

No I was making my point.

Name one product: Ok the digital watch.

The first one to come out cost over $2100. Now you can buy a digital watch with the exact same functionality for $10.

Next!

 

[RKMBrown]

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

they have a mixed economy moving rapidly toward more and more capitalism and more and more wealth for their citizens

It's in the dictionary.
free market: an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government

The dictionary is no more useful in defining a 'free market' than it is for defining inflation or economic growth. Again, a free market is the private ownership of the means of production and the absence of government intervention. Government intervention includes regulation, prohibition, taxation, a monopoly of the money supply, or anything else the government does that alters the value choices of anyone that participates in the market.

Your definition is rife with emotion. The dictionary definition is better.

The dictionary is not the final authority on the meaning of economic terms. They are just the meanings that the man-in-the-street applies to them. Clinging to the dictionary definition is an indication that you don't have a clue what the fuck you're talking about.

ROFL ROFL ROFL... stop it your killing me. You heard it here folks we're all supposed to speak in "Bripat's" new language. He'll be sending us new definitions for every word real soon now, till then just take all the notes you can.

It's not my language. It's the language economists use. Only congenital ignoramuses believe the dictionary is the final authority in scientific fields. When you use words specific to your profession, they have very specific meanings that often differ from common usage.

All you've proven is that you're a boob from the provinces who doesn't of life in the big city.

Then provide your citation.

 

[RKMBrown]

Your definition is rife with emotion. The dictionary definition is better.

There is no emotion in my definition.

Does the government 'set' prices in the auto industry? No.
Does government regulation in the auto industry affect price? Yes.
Does government regulation in the health care industry affect price? Yes.
Does government regulation in the education sector affect price? Yes.
Does an increase in the volume of money affect price? Yes
Does taxation affect price? Yes,
Does prohibition affect price? Yes.

Look at any industry sector where prices continually rise and I will show you abundant government intervention. Why do prices in the consumer electronics sector drop over time?

Yes there is emotion in y our definition.


Does the government 'set' prices in the auto industry? Yes, by bailing out GM, and a few others, by installing czars they set in charge of profit margins bonus structures and such for said bailed out companies, by buying cars to destroy them, by mandating car insurance, registration fees, gas tax, .... all these things affect the cost of a car to the consumer. Put another way, government mandates the minimum floor cost to consumers/users of autos..

Your making his point. The auto industry is partially socialized. Government makes a lot of the decisions that private firms would normally make.

[Price drop in consumer electronics is a mixed bag. Some fall others don't. The cost to manufacture the products has come down.

Name one electronics product where the price has increased since it was conceived.

No I was making my point.

Name one product: Ok the digital watch.

The first one to come out cost over $800. Now you can buy a digital watch with the exact same functionality for $10.

Next!

Wrong it was 2100.. and now the digital watch most people will be buying is going to be around 350 where back in the 80s swatches were what 20bucks?

 

[bripat9643]

The first digital watch was $2,100
The price fell to a couple bucks...
Now it's heading up as the desired features of the standard digital watch goes up.
Same thing happens to other types of consumer products. Look at homes. Products change over time.

It's invalid to compare a watch with more features because you aren't paying for the same thing. You're getting more.

You disproved your own claim, BTW.

 

[RKMBrown]

The first digital watch was $2,100
The price fell to a couple bucks...
Now it's heading up as the desired features of the standard digital watch goes up.
Same thing happens to other types of consumer products. Look at homes. Products change over time.

It's invalid to compare a watch with more features because you aren't paying for the same thing. You're getting more.

You disproved your own claim, BTW.

Why would I want to buy an old watch that has no features?