What is the goal of capitalism?

[Toddsterpatriot]

If you want to resort to these disingenuous, hypocritical death-toll arguments then present your evidence, that the communists killed "tens of millions of innocent Russians". At least do that.

Anyways, none of your scary campfire stories in any way undermines the fact that as advanced automation and artificial intelligence replace wage labor, socialism becomes a necessity. The more automated and intelligent our production, the more socialist it becomes.

​

Estimated number of victims[edit]​

According to the introduction, the number of people killed by the Communist governments amounts to more than 94 million.[8]: 4  The statistics of victims include deaths through executions, man-made hunger, famine, war, deportations, and forced labor. The breakdown of the number of deaths is given as follows:

• 65 million in the People's Republic of China
• 20 million in the Soviet Union
• 2 million in Cambodia
• 2 million in North Korea
• 1.7 million in Ethiopia
• 1.5 million in Afghanistan
• 1 million in the Eastern Bloc
• 1 million in Vietnam
• 150,000 in Latin America
• 10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power"[8]: 4 

According to Courtois, the crimes by the Soviet Union included the following:

• The execution of tens of thousands of hostages and prisoners
• The murder of hundreds of thousands of rebellious workers and peasants from 1918 to 1922
• The Russian famine of 1921 which caused the death of 5 million people
• The decossackization, a policy of systematic repression against the Don Cossacks between 1917 and 1933
• The murder of tens of thousands in the Gulag during the period between 1918 and 1930
• The Great Purge which killed almost 690,000 people
• The dekulakization, resulting in the deportation of 2 million so-called kulaks from 1930 to 1932
• The death of 4 million Ukrainians (Holodomor) and 2 million others during the famine of 1932 and 1933
• The deportations of Poles, Ukrainians, Moldovans, and people from the Baltic states from 1939 to 1941 and from 1944 to 1945
• The deportation of the Volga Germans in 1941
• The deportation of the Crimean Tatars in 1944
• Operation Lentil and deportation of the Ingush in 1944[8]: 9–10 

The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Red Front]

Estimated number of victims[edit]​

According to the introduction, the number of people killed by the Communist governments amounts to more than 94 million.[8]: 4  The statistics of victims include deaths through executions, man-made hunger, famine, war, deportations, and forced labor. The breakdown of the number of deaths is given as follows:

• 65 million in the People's Republic of China
• 20 million in the Soviet Union
• 2 million in Cambodia
• 2 million in North Korea
• 1.7 million in Ethiopia
• 1.5 million in Afghanistan
• 1 million in the Eastern Bloc
• 1 million in Vietnam
• 150,000 in Latin America
• 10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power"[8]: 4 

According to Courtois, the crimes by the Soviet Union included the following:

• The execution of tens of thousands of hostages and prisoners
• The murder of hundreds of thousands of rebellious workers and peasants from 1918 to 1922
• The Russian famine of 1921 which caused the death of 5 million people
• The decossackization, a policy of systematic repression against the Don Cossacks between 1917 and 1933
• The murder of tens of thousands in the Gulag during the period between 1918 and 1930
• The Great Purge which killed almost 690,000 people
• The dekulakization, resulting in the deportation of 2 million so-called kulaks from 1930 to 1932
• The death of 4 million Ukrainians (Holodomor) and 2 million others during the famine of 1932 and 1933
• The deportations of Poles, Ukrainians, Moldovans, and people from the Baltic states from 1939 to 1941 and from 1944 to 1945
• The deportation of the Volga Germans in 1941
• The deportation of the Crimean Tatars in 1944
• Operation Lentil and deportation of the Ingush in 1944[8]: 9–10 

The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The so-called "black book of Communism", is a farce (capitalist Cold War rhetoric):

​

They even counted the deaths of Nazis in the "black book"!

Here former CIA officers confess to fabricating scary campfire stories about communists:

​

And as I mentioned, you have no moral high ground due to the fact that capitalism has its own mountain of dead rotting corpses, in its pursuit of profits and control of resources. It's called imperialism, perhaps you should read about it.

Madeleine Albright justifies the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children as "worth it"

Visit: http://www.policestateusa.com/U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright justified the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children. These deaths were the result...

www.youtube.com

You have nothing but cheap Cold War capitalist rhetoric against socialism.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The so-called "black book of Communism", is a farce (capitalist Cold War rhetoric):

​

They even counted the deaths of Nazis in the "black book"!

Here former CIA officers confess to fabricating scary campfire stories about communists:

​

And as I mentioned, you have no moral high ground due to the fact that capitalism has its own mountain of dead rotting corpses, in its pursuit of profits and control of resources. It's called imperialism, perhaps you should read about it.

Madeleine Albright justifies the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children as "worth it"

Visit: http://www.policestateusa.com/U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright justified the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children. These deaths were the result...

www.youtube.com

You have nothing but cheap Cold War capitalist rhetoric against socialism.

The commies didn't kill tens of millions.
But even if they did, they were all enemies of the people.

 

[Red Front]

The commies didn't kill tens of millions.
But even if they did, they were all enemies of the people.

Exactly. Your buddies who murdered socialist farmers, teachers, burned fields, destroyed equipment, and fought alongside the enemies of the people. Class warfare is bloody. Here is a young, zealous capitalist polemicist getting educated by an old-school communist about what really happened in the Soviet Union:

​

Todd always resorts to these types of hypocritical, evasive arguments, since he can't find any other way to justify the existence of capitalism when advanced automation and artificial intelligence, replaces over half of all jobs, in the next couple of decades, creating a massive crisis. He wants his fellow capitalist elites to own all of the intelligent robots and factories, artificial intelligence, while over 90% of the American public is consigned to serfdom.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Exactly. Your buddies who murdered socialist farmers, teachers, burned fields, destroyed equipment, and fought alongside the enemies of the people. Class warfare is bloody. Here is a young, zealous capitalist polemicist getting educated by an old-school communist about what really happened in the Soviet Union:

​

Todd always resorts to these types of hypocritical, evasive arguments, since he can't find any other way to justify the existence of capitalism when advanced automation and artificial intelligence, replaces over half of all jobs, in the next couple of decades, creating a massive crisis. He wants his fellow capitalist elites to own all of the intelligent robots and factories, artificial intelligence, while over 90% of the American public is consigned to serfdom.

Here is a young, zealous capitalist polemicist getting educated by an old-school communist about what really happened in the Soviet Union:

Thanks. I didn't know they had comedians under old-school communism.

 

[Red Front]

Here is a young, zealous capitalist polemicist getting educated by an old-school communist about what really happened in the Soviet Union:

Thanks. I didn't know they had comedians under old-school communism.

He might seem like a comedian to you but nonetheless, he's telling the truth.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

He might seem like a comedian to you but nonetheless, he's telling the truth.

Hahaha, nobody was shooting Russian soldiers if they hesitated charging the Nazi lines.

You can't list the thousands who did that. Hahaha.

 

[Red Front]

Hahaha, nobody was shooting Russian soldiers if they hesitated charging the Nazi lines.

You can't list the thousands who did that. Hahaha.

That the Russians had people assigned to shoot their comrades, is a fantasy. You can believe that nonsense if it makes you feel better.

 

[ralfy]

It is different, free markets and its failures have been studied and tested thoroghly for hundreds of years. We know how free markets work , in which conditions they fail ( externalities, monopolic competition, oligopolic competition ,inelastic demand, revolving door, entry barriers...). We know what measures can be used as alternatives. We know free markets are an ideal model hard to replicate in real life but that can be approximated.
Socialism ( collective ownership of the means of production) has also been tested and studied and revised, it is a form of delivering goods and services that exists throughout the world even to a lesser extent in the US through state-owned enterprises like the postal services.
Communism as outlined by Marx ( a classless society) has never existed, it has never been tested or even simulated. It is just a very sketchy idea. I just wish people stopped calling socialist dictatorships "communism". It doesn't even addreess how to cope with full automation something we may see become true in many countries in the next 50 years.

What Are the Differences Between Communism and Socialism?

Communism and socialism are political and economic systems that are historically related but often confused with each other. Here's how they compare.

www.investopedia.com

View attachment 809150

I wasn't referring to any of the points you gave but utopia.

 

[Mexicano]

Socialism is early communism. It's the process that leads to a stateless society, without socioeconomic classes or the need for money i.e. communism.

Red front , as I already told you there are problms with that particular definition of communism.
1) Who creates the rules and laws, How are rules enforced?
2) How is wealth apportioned ? Per capita? That would really mean large families are the best way to become wealthier. Per Adult? That means large families will be poorer. Granted this means the social differences will not be so large as today , but there will still be income differences. That , and the fact that even with full automation some jobs will still remain. Do people who work get the same income as those that don't?
3) How do you perform accounting without money? This also means there is a problem with management, no management is possible without accounting.

Add to that the other problems we already know we have with socialism
5) The tragedy of commons
6) Low innovation (few innovations are produced) - misaligned innovation ( innovations are not aligned with consumer needs).

5 is also present with large corporations ( not all stakeholders keep track of the firms performance, which leads to the best effort/result action: none of the stakeholders monitors the firm's performance)
6 are also present with monopolies and to some extent with oligopolies.

 

[Mexicano]

I wasn't referring to any of the points you gave but utopia.

Free markets are unachievable there is an inherent tendency to firm consolidation which leads to oligopolies and monopolies.
A bunch of small firms competing doesn't strike me as a utopia just as short-term model.

Utopia
"a place of ideal perfection especially in laws, government, and social conditions"

 

[Red Front]

Red front , as I already told you there are problms with that particular definition of communism.
1) Who creates the rules and laws, How are rules enforced?
2) How is wealth apportioned ? Per capita? That would really mean large families are the best way to become wealthier. Per Adult? That means large families will be poorer. Granted this means the social differences will not be so large as today , but there will still be income differences. That , and the fact that even with full automation some jobs will still remain. Do people who work get the same income as those that don't?
3) How do you perform accounting without money? This also means there is a problem with management, no management is possible without accounting.

Add to that the other problems we already know we have with socialism
5) The tragedy of commons
6) Low innovation (few innovations are produced) - misaligned innovation ( innovations are not aligned with consumer needs).

5 is also present with large corporations ( not all stakeholders keep track of the firms performance, which leads to the best effort/result action: none of the stakeholders monitors the firm's performance)
6 are also present with monopolies and to some extent with oligopolies.

Red front , as I already told you there are problms with that particular definition of communism.
1) Who creates the rules and laws, How are rules enforced?

There are political analysts who make a distinction between the state and government, asserting that government isn't necessarily a state. I disagree and believe there will always be a state, even in communism, although it will be much smaller than under socialism. As the individual consumer has more advanced technology, there will no longer be a need for a large state for the reasons I mentioned in earlier posts on this thread.

2) How is wealth apportioned ? Per capita? That would really mean large families are the best way to become wealthier. Per Adult? That means large families will be poorer. Granted this means the social differences will not be so large as today , but there will still be income differences. That , and the fact that even with full automation some jobs will still remain. Do people who work get the same income as those that don't?

In the 1930s, during the Great Depression, our unemployment rate was at 23% and that had catastrophic effects on society. In the next twenty to thirty years it's estimated that advanced automation and artificial intelligence will take 60% of jobs. Some estimates are as high as 80% for both blue and white-collar jobs. Capitalism relies on wage labor, hence if technology replaces human workers, or a significant number of them, there won't be enough paying consumers to create a market worth investing in. With automation and artificial intelligence, society has to adopt a non-profit system of production that no longer relies on wages and paying consumers or markets.

The transition from capitalism to communism should ideally go through a process of socialism. The democratization and socialization of production. Unfortunately, since there's so much misinformation and a lack of understanding about socialism in America, that gradual transition from capitalism to communism, isn't going to take place. So what will occur is an era of extreme austerity and social unrest, where a significant % of the US population is unemployed and dependent upon a fixed government income. Eventually, the situation will become so unbearably unmanageable that most Americans will seek to establish a socialist government and economy, out of necessity. We might even plunge into a civil war.

It's not just the economy or the way we organize the production of goods and services, that has to change. We have to adopt new values, and relationships with one another and what we call "private property". Most of what people own today, under capitalism, will remain theirs as personal property. Their house, vehicles..etc. Labor will be organized differently, without wages or markets, nonetheless, everyone will have a high standard of living. Scarcity will be eliminated, with advanced automation and artificial intelligence, due to the fact that autonomous machines work 24/7. Robots don't rest.

3) How do you perform accounting without money? This also means there is a problem with management, no management is possible without accounting.

Accounting has nothing to do with money in the later stages of socialism or in communism, but with the collection and parsing of data in the area of production and logistics. Powerful computers will tell us exactly what needs to be produced based on several data sets. Money as a transactional medium of exchange is no longer needed. Society for example will determine that if someone works a minimum of 20 hours weekly, they get a house, three gallons of milk weekly..etc, without money. They walk into the automated store with their "chip card":

​

And get whatever they have a right to get, which should be more than enough since society will have an abundance of goods and services to offer.

4)Add to that the other problems we already know we have with socialism

What "problem" is that?

5) The tragedy of commons

What's that?

6) Low innovation (few innovations are produced) - misaligned innovation ( innovations are not aligned with consumer needs).

More innovation, due to no longer being constrained by markets or the need for money. We will now have artificial intelligence and other technologies which will increase the research and development of new technologies. The idea that the private sector is more innovative than the public or government is false:

​

Here are 20 significant technologies that were either directly created by the U.S. government or significantly benefitted from U.S. government funding:

1. Global Positioning System (GPS): The GPS system was developed and is maintained by the U.S. Department of Defense.
2. Internet: The development of the Internet was significantly funded by the U.S. government, particularly the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).
3. Touchscreen Technology: The U.S. government, through the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), funded the development of touchscreen technology.
4. Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI): The National Institutes of Health funded significant research in this area.
5. Microchips: The U.S. Air Force and Navy significantly supported the development of microchips.
6. Email: The first network email was sent by Ray Tomlinson in 1971 on the ARPANET, a precursor to the Internet funded by DARPA.
7. The Human Genome Project: This was an international research effort to determine the sequence of the human genome and identify the genes that it contains. The project was funded by the U.S. government through the National Institutes of Health.
8. Weather Satellites: The first weather satellite, TIROS-1, was launched by NASA in 1960.
9. Duct Tape: Originally created by the Johnson and Johnson Permacel Division during WWII, under a contract with the U.S. government to create a waterproof sealing tape for ammunition boxes.
10. Nuclear Power: The development of nuclear power was heavily funded and researched by the U.S. government, especially during and after World War II.
11. Stealth Technology: This technology, used to make aircraft less detectable, was developed by DARPA and the U.S. Air Force.
12. Barcodes: The development of barcode technology was funded by the National Science Foundation.
13. 3D Printing: The National Science Foundation provided funding for the early stages of 3D printing technology.
14. Fracking Technology: The Department of Energy funded research that contributed to the development of modern hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, technology.
15. Lithium-Ion Batteries: Research funded by the U.S. Department of Energy helped develop the technology behind these batteries.
16. Satellites: The launch of the first U.S. artificial satellite, Explorer 1, was a collaboration between NASA and the U.S. Army.
17. Digital Cameras: The technology behind digital cameras was initially developed at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.
18. The Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET): This was an early packet-switching network and the first network to implement the TCP/IP protocol suite, both of which became the technical foundation of the modern Internet. It was funded by DARPA.
19. Advanced Multi-layer Integrated Circuits: The Apollo Guidance Computer, developed for NASA's Apollo program, pioneered the design of integrated circuits, which are now used in nearly all electronic devices.
20. Radio Astronomy: The U.S. Navy and National Science Foundation funded early research into radio astronomy, which is now a vital tool in the exploration of the universe.

Here is a compiled list of notable Soviet inventions and significant technological achievements:

1. First Nuclear Power Plants Connected to a Power Grid: The USSR was a pioneer in the development of nuclear power for civilian use.
2. Lasers: Soviet scientist Aleksandr Prokhorov shared the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1964 for his work developing laser technology.
3. Electroluminescent Lighting (ELD): Soviet engineers contributed significantly to the development and application of this technology.
4. First Mobile Phones: Soviet engineer Leonid Kupriyanovich developed early versions of mobile phones in the mid-20th century.
5. First Artificial Satellites: The launch of Sputnik 1 in 1957 marked the start of the space age.
6. First Space Probes: Soviet probes were the first to achieve a number of significant space exploration milestones.
7. First Manned Spaceflights: Cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin became the first human in space in 1961.
8. First Spacesuits: Soviet spacesuits were designed for the unique challenges of human space travel.
9. First Spacewalk: Alexei Leonov performed the first spacewalk in 1965.
10. First Spacecraft Docking in Space: The unmanned Cosmos 186 and Cosmos 188 performed the first docking in 1967.
11. First Space Station: The Salyut program, launched in 1971, was the world's first space station program.
12. First Work with Bacteriophages: The Soviet Union was a pioneer in the study of viruses that eat bacteria, also known as bacteriophages.
13. First Vaccines for Certain Diseases: The USSR contributed significantly to vaccine development.
14. AK-47: This globally recognized assault rifle was developed by the Soviet Union.
15. Lunokhod Program: The first unmanned lunar rover to land on the moon.
16. Tetris: This popular video game was created by a Soviet software engineer.
17. First Woman in Space: Cosmonaut Valentina Tereshkova was the first woman to fly to space.
18. Artificial Heart: The first artificial heart was implanted in a dog in the Soviet Union.
19. Buran Space Shuttle: The Soviet Union's space shuttle which had its maiden flight in 1988.
20. RPG-7: A portable, reusable, anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade launcher.
21. Synthetic Rubber: The USSR was the first to produce synthetic rubber on an industrial scale.
22. The RDS-1 ("Joe 1") Atomic Bomb: The first atomic bomb tested by the Soviet Union.
23. MiG Fighter Jets: The Soviet Union’s Mikoyan Design Bureau designed this series of fighter jets.
24. Tsar Bomba: The most powerful nuclear device ever detonated.
25. Fast Neutron Reactors: The USSR was a pioneer in the development of fast neutron reactors for electricity generation.
26. Plasma Propulsion in Spacecraft: The first successful demonstration of plasma propulsion in a spacecraft.
27. Mil V-12 (Mi-12), the Largest Helicopter Ever Built: A heavy-lift helicopter that set several world records.
28. Tupolev Tu-144: The world's first commercial supersonic transport aircraft (SST).
29. T-34 Tank: A technologically innovative design which had a profound effect on tank design.
30. The Mir Space Station: The USSR developed and launched this space station, which was continuously inhabited for nearly 10 years.
31. Soyuz Spacecraft Series: A reliable and long-serving spacecraft series.
32. RD-170: The Most Powerful Rocket Engine Ever Built: The RD-170 liquid-propellant rocket engine is the most powerful rocket engine ever built.

Whoever says that only the private sector can innovate or invent, doesn't know much about the history of science. Much of humanity's technology was funded by kings who commissioned the people of knowledge and the engineers of their day, to innovate and solve problems. It often takes the vast resources of government to innovate.

5 is also present with large corporations ( not all stakeholders keep track of the firms performance, which leads to the best effort/result action: none of the stakeholders monitors the firm's performance)
6 are also present with monopolies and to some extent with oligopolies.

When automation and artificial intelligence become advanced enough, society is forced by necessity to adopt socialism, and discard capitalism. It might happen in twenty years or in sixty years, but eventually, people will realize that technology renders capitalism with its for-profit production, completely dysfunctional and obsolete. Eliminate wage labor with automation and artificial intelligence, and the market disappears due to a lack of paying consumers. Society is forced by necessity to adopt a non-profit system of production a.k.a. socialism/communism.

​

 

[Cougarbear]

Capitalism was the greatest cause of genocide in the 19th, 20th, and now in the 21st century.

Ummm…no. Communism was. Mao, Stalin and other communists killed over 100 million people. Mostly starved them to death. And, what is Russia doing today? What is China doing today? Why do you lie and make statements you can’t possibly prove.

 

[Cougarbear]

I already did, learn to scroll.

You did nothing but show everyone you are an idiot communist. Certainly not a Christian man.

 

[Quentin111]

There is also such a thing under socialism as fraud, waste, abuse, cronyism, and assorted other human failings. There are not as prevalent as thy are under capitalism for the simple reason that capitalism produces enormously more wealth. Hence more money to be acquired by fair means or foul than under socialism.

The main problem under socialism is to produce, the main problem under capitalism is to sell.

 

[Red Front]

The main problem under socialism is to produce, the main problem under capitalism is to sell.

Especially if you're being economically sanctioned, threatened, encircled, bombed, and invaded, by well-established capitalist powers, then it's more difficult to produce. Now due to advanced technology, producing goods and providing services is easier than ever.

 

[Cougarbear]

The main problem under socialism is to produce, the main problem under capitalism is to sell.

I understand socialism produces less because there are no incentives to produce more as individuals unless you dangle fame and fortune in front of someone like Russia and China do with certain athletes.
But, I see no problems selling under capitalism. How would the U.S. have brought so many nations and people out of poverty if we couldn’t sell products a services?

 

[Quentin111]

Communism is the priority of the collective and public over the private, the need to put collective interests above personal ones. There was even such a slogan under socialism: "from each according to his ability, to each according to his work," while under communism there should have been a slogan: "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

 

[Quentin111]

I understand socialism produces less because there are no incentives to produce more as individuals unless you dangle fame and fortune in front of someone like Russia and China do with certain athletes.
But, I see no problems selling under capitalism. How would the U.S. have brought so many nations and people out of poverty if we couldn’t sell products a services?

Okay, I'll reformulate the phrase: under capitalism, the problem is to produce products cheaper and better than competitors. Capitalism is a constant competition between producers.

 

[Red Front]

Okay, I'll reformulate the phrase: under capitalism, the problem is to produce products cheaper and better than competitors. Capitalism is a constant competition between producers.

It's production for private capital accumulation or "profits". If it's not marketable or profitable, it's not produced, even if it's a needed product. Just because something isn't commercially viable doesn't render it worthless or useless. New and better technology may even be thrown in the basement and left there forever because it will disrupt the market or undermine a prior major investment in older, less effective technology. Human progress is undermined, on account of capitalist production prioritizing profits above the public good.

We're now stuck on fossil fuels, when we could've built modern, safe nuclear plants decades ago, switching to clean electric vehicles. We can even produce liquid fuel from nuclear plants, hence there's no need for the "black gold". The only reason we're still addicted to oil and gas is due to the private pursuit of profits.