What is the goal of capitalism?

Under socialism, there was an administrative-command bureaucratic system. Therefore, there was such a thing as nepotism.

There is also such a thing under socialism as fraud, waste, abuse, cronyism, and assorted other human failings. There are not as prevalent as thy are under capitalism for the simple reason that capitalism produces enormously more wealth. Hence more money to be acquired by fair means or foul than under socialism.
 
Finally banks must have strict regulations because they are in charge of expanding the monetary supply. They can also be state owned. Indeed , most of the state-owned enterprises in the US are financial institutions.


You have a list of these state-owned enterprises?
 
There is also such a thing under socialism as fraud, waste, abuse, cronyism, and assorted other human failings. There are not as prevalent as thy are under capitalism for the simple reason that capitalism produces enormously more wealth. Hence more money to be acquired by fair means or foul than under socialism.
People tend to confuse two things:
- The form of government : dictatorship, monarchy, democracy , oligarchy.
- The production mode : collective ownership(usually government working as a proxy of people) or private ownership.

Fraud, waste, abuse and cronysm are also present in the capitalist system: take a look at any third world country : Ukraine, Kenya, Democratic Republic of Congo, Mexico.
Alas corruption is more highly correlated to poverty than to the form of government or the production mode.
 
Alas corruption is more highly correlated to poverty than to the form of government or the production mode.

Disagree. IMHO and in general, the amount of corruption in any form of gov't or production mode is correlated to the amount of money in circulation, fiat or otherwise. I do not believe those living in poverty have nearly as much opportunity to lie, steal, and cheat as those who have access to greater sums.
 
I lived under socialism in the USSR. Under socialism, compared with capitalism, there were such features: low prices for products and essential services (food, utility bills for an apartment). But at the same time there were high prices for sophisticated equipment: televisions, cars. At the same time, equipment such as cars was often of poor quality and often broke down. For example: a graduate of the institute - a young engineer - had a salary at the plant of 120 rubles. A "Moskvich"-type car (it was of poor quality, often broke down) cost about 5,000 thousand rubles. If an engineer set aside 50 rubles a month from his salary, then he could save up for a car in 10 years. A young man (for example, a married man) could, working at an enterprise, receive housing at the expense of the enterprise - an apartment (that is, free of charge). But for this he had to stand in line, which lasted several years.
There was such a phenomenon as scarcity: some goods were cheap, but were often out of stock.
There was no meat in the stores, often there was not even sausage on sale. Meat was usually sold in the markets where collective farmers traded.
Higher education was free on the condition that you pass the entrance exams to an institute or university. But there was a system for the distribution of graduates after a higher educational institution: a graduate was obliged to work for at least three years at the enterprise where he was distributed.
Different cities and regions had different supplies of goods. A city like Moscow had privileges - many goods were freely sold there, such as sausage products, sausages and much more. Many Soviet citizens traveled to Moscow to buy goods there.
Under socialism, there was an administrative-command bureaucratic system. Therefore, there was such a thing as nepotism.

Some former Soviet Citizens, expressing their opinions on how it was to live under that system:








I'm not contesting anything that Quentin said. Nonetheless, let's put things in their proper context. The USSR was born from an under-industrialized, agrarian society, with about 44% illiteracy, and was able, despite all of the many challenges and obstacles it had to overcome to survive, to become the second largest economy in the world. Under several of Stalin's five-year development plans, by the late 1930s, the USSR was an industrial giant and world power to be reckoned with.

Soviet Russia was invaded by the United States, Britain, France, and 12 other countries in 1918. The socialist Bolshevic "red army", had to fight the so-called "white army" of the Russian anti-socialists, and its foreign allies (200K troops strong, including 14 thousand US Army and Marines) for several years, into the 1920s (the socialists won that war). The USSR was in a state of war for most of its 70-year existence. A new nation, born from poverty that was constantly threatened, invaded, sanctioned, embargoed, and demonized, by extremely powerful, well-established capitalist countries like the USA.

When the USSR was entering what could've been its golden era of development and modernization in the late 1930s and early 40s, it was invaded by 4 million Nazis in Operation Barbarossa. Much of its infrastructure was destroyed in WW2, not to speak of the catastrophic loss of life that the USSR suffered, estimated at 27 million, 14% of its population. The United States is safely guarded by two vast oceans (the Atlantic and Pacific), and hence wasn't invaded. America lost 460 thousand of its citizens in WW2, about 0.31% of its population.

The US came out of WW2 unscathed compared to the USSR, Europe, and Japan. The Soviets didn't have the United States as a supporter or friend after the war as Europe and Japan did. There was no "Marshal Plan" (Uncle Sam Money) for the USSR after the war, as there was for Europe and Japan, hence it had to pick itself up by its own bootstraps and rebuild its infrastructure from the ruins of a devastating world war. Why don't the critics of Soviet socialism ever mention that? The USSR despite that, became a nuclear superpower by the 1950s, rivaling the US, militarily, technologically..etc. They launched the first satellites and human beings into space, before the US, notwithstanding a Cold War and economic sanctions.

The United States profited immensely from its unique position after World War 2, due to, as mentioned earlier, not suffering the catastrophic damage and casualties of Europe and the USSR. The US dollar became the world's reserve currency and America became the manufacturing hub of the world. The golden age of the US economy was between 1950 and 1970, and yet the USSR became the second-largest economy in the world in 1970. From a poor, agrarian society, in 1917 to an industrial giant and world super-power by 1970, despite all of the challenges and obstacles. That's pretty impressive and those who contend otherwise are being disingenuous at best.

Did the capitalist mercantile class of Europe replace the kings and feudal lords overnight? It took centuries for the merchants to get the upper hand on the old royal aristocracy and become the ruling class of Western society. The Republicans didn't defeat the monarchists in a few decades it took hundreds of years, so why demand that if socialism is a valid, functional system of production it has to replace capitalism in one decisive victory or single swoop of the sword? Why are the standards always different (MUCH HIGHER) for socialists?

The European mercantile class didn't become the powerful industrialists of the 19th century until technology permitted them to invest in industrial machinery and facilities. Only then did the merchants of Europe replace the kings and feudal lords, becoming the ruling class. Technology had to exist in order for them to rise to that position. Likewise, socialism won't replace capitalism with its markets and money, until technology sufficiently automates production. Capitalists ruled the kings and royal aristocracy through industrialization, and socialists will replace capitalists with automation and artificial intelligence. Powerful computers, robotics, artificial intelligence, and nanotechnology, will inevitably make socialism necessary.

I respect Quntin's personal experience in the USSR, but if he thinks that socialism is dead because the USSR eventually lost the Cold War and imploded, he's wrong. The USSR was just the first attempt to establish a socialist society at a national scale, despite the lack of computers, automation..etc. Not to mention all of the aforementioned challenges and obstacles. It was an interesting and impressive experiment, that failed at the end, but that doesn't say much about socialism's future.

Socialism is a process, and we're just at the beginning of it now. There are many successful so-called "mixed economies" in the world that implement socialist principles. They have robust social safety nets for workers, most of their workforce is unionized, enjoying many rights and benefits, they offer their citizens free (at the point of service) healthcare, a tuition-free education, housing for the homeless..etc. So socialism hasn't gone anywhere, it's still here, and not only that, but it's the future successor of capitalism.
 
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I can add that under socialism it was easy to find a job. Under socialism, labor productivity was low, so workers were needed everywhere. Parasitism (if a person is healthy, young and does not want to work) was even considered a criminal offense.
 
I can add that under socialism it was easy to find a job. Under socialism, labor productivity was low, so workers were needed everywhere. Parasitism (if a person is healthy, young and does not want to work) was even considered a criminal offense.

So, for the most part IMHO, people did enough to stay out of trouble but probably not as much as they could do. What would anyone suspect from people who are unmotivated except by fear without incentives?
 
I think that socialism will return (more precisely, there will be a society of universal security) when artificial intelligence becomes smarter than a person and machines start working instead of people. Then poverty will disappear in human society, poverty due to unemployment. All people will receive a basic income, the funds for which will be collected from taxes on robotic enterprises.
 
Under socialism, there was still the so-called "equalization", that is, a low Gini coefficient. The cleaner earned about 90 rubles a month. Junior engineer earned 120 rubles a month. An experienced engineer earned about 200 rubles a month. A skilled worker could earn up to 300 rubles a month and more (yes, there was a Soviet paradox when factory workers earned more than engineers). The director of the enterprise could earn 300-400 rubles or more. For example, a loaf of white bread cost 20 kopecks (0.2 rubles). That is, for one monthly salary, a junior engineer could buy 600 loaves of bread. Half liter bottle of milk cost 27 kopecks. A tram ticket cost 3 kopecks. One consumed kilowatt-hour cost 4 kopecks.
 
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Under socialism, there was still the so-called "equalization", that is, a low Gini coefficient. The cleaner earned about 90 rubles a month. Junior engineer earned 120 rubles a month. An experienced engineer earned about 200 rubles a month. A skilled worker could earn up to 300 rubles a month and more (yes, there was a Soviet paradox when factory workers earned more than engineers). The director of the enterprise could earn 300-400 rubles or more. For example, a loaf of white bread cost 20 kopecks (0.2 rubles). That is, for one monthly salary, a junior engineer could buy 600 loaves of bread. Half liter bottle of milk cost 27 kopecks. A tram ticket cost 3 kopecks. One consumed kilowatt-hour cost 4 kopecks.

Wow!
That shithole sounds awesome.
 
I think that socialism will return (more precisely, there will be a society of universal security) when artificial intelligence becomes smarter than a person and machines start working instead of people. Then poverty will disappear in human society, poverty due to unemployment. All people will receive a basic income, the funds for which will be collected from taxes on robotic enterprises.
Once we're that advanced, there's no reason to have money or a basic income. Goods and services can be produced and distributed without markets. People will work 20 hours a week and they'll have a card with a chip, that will provide them access to all of the goods and services that they have a right to consume and use. Money, profits, markets, all of that will become superfluous and unnecessary.
 
Once we're that advanced, there's no reason to have money or a basic income. Goods and services can be produced and distributed without markets. People will work 20 hours a week and they'll have a card with a chip, that will provide them access to all of the goods and services that they have a right to consume and use. Money, profits, markets, all of that will become superfluous and unnecessary.

People will work 20 hours a week and they'll have a card with a chip, that will provide them access to all of the goods and services that they have a right to consume and use.

What will their "right" be based upon?
 
People will work 20 hours a week and they'll have a card with a chip, that will provide them access to all of the goods and services that they have a right to consume and use.

What will their "right" be based upon?
When we get to that place, where we no longer need money, markets, or wages, due to advanced automation and artificial intelligence, we will have to write new laws and establish a logistical infrastructure and supply chain, to meet the needs of consumers. The consumer will no longer purchase products with their wages, but will rather have the right to access an x amount of resources based upon the amount of time they worked.

For example, if you're within the age range that society deems you obligated to work, you'll work 20 hours weekly, five days a week, in whichever field you've chosen within the available options, and in return, you have a right to a house, food, clothing, vehicles, public transit, utilities..etc. In this mostly automated, highly efficient, resource-based system of production, you would, for example, have a right to access three gallons of milk weekly, and your spouse would also have access to her own resources, as well as your children.

Computers, on-site sensors, and artificial intelligence would do the accounting, and develop and manage the logistical infrastructure, to make sure everyone's needs are met. Society will have the luxury of being generous, thanks to advanced technology. Every member of society will enjoy a very high standard of living, due to the abundance of products and services that will be available. When a civilization has intelligent robots doing most of the work, it eliminates scarcity and creates extreme abundance. Intelligent robots work 24/7, they don't rest.
 
When we get to that place, where we no longer need money, markets, or wages, due to advanced automation and artificial intelligence, we will have to write new laws and establish a logistical infrastructure and supply chain, to meet the needs of consumers. The consumer will no longer purchase products with their wages, but will rather have the right to access an x amount of resources based upon the amount of time they worked.

For example, if you're within the age range that society deems you obligated to work, you'll work 20 hours weekly, five days a week, in whichever field you've chosen within the available options, and in return, you have a right to a house, food, clothing, vehicles, public transit, utilities..etc. In this mostly automated, highly efficient, resource-based system of production, you would, for example, have a right to access three gallons of milk weekly, and your spouse would also have access to her own resources, as well as your children.

Computers, on-site sensors, and artificial intelligence would do the accounting, and develop and manage the logistical infrastructure, to make sure everyone's needs are met. Society will have the luxury of being generous, thanks to advanced technology. Every member of society will enjoy a very high standard of living, due to the abundance of products and services that will be available. When a civilization has intelligent robots doing most of the work, it eliminates scarcity and creates extreme abundance. Robots work 24/7, they don't rest.

The consumer will no longer purchase products with their wages, but will rather have the right to access an x amount of resources based upon the amount of time they worked.


Exactly. We won't be spending money. We'll be using "money".
 
The consumer will no longer purchase products with their wages, but will rather have the right to access an x amount of resources based upon the amount of time they worked.

Exactly. We won't be spending money. We'll be using "money".

Is that your objection to everything I said? How does that render what I said wrong?
 
Disagree. IMHO and in general, the amount of corruption in any form of gov't or production mode is correlated to the amount of money in circulation, fiat or otherwise. I do not believe those living in poverty have nearly as much opportunity to lie, steal, and cheat as those who have access to greater sums.
I don't think so. Countries like Yemen, Nigeria , Ethiopia, and Lebanon have a very low government and are very corrupt.
Taiwan also has a low spending and it is ranked as a low-corruption country.
Then we have countries like France, Australia , Sweeden, UK with high spending and low corruption.

Government spending and corruption seem to be inversely correlated which makes it very hard to prove a causal relation.

 
Communism is nothing more than a sketchy utopic idea. It is missing everything to ve a viable system : the feedback mechanisms, resource allocation, and distribution, and organization and all the nifty details: how is a society supposed to work without money? how will work be allocated? Maybe, when we have supra-intelligent AI it can be fleshed out. And then the communist principle has to be corrected "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". What is that supposed to mean? A family with 20 kids is supposed to get the same amount as one with two? That's the recipe for a Malthusian nightmare.

Communism has the same dream as free market capitalism, i.e., a classless society brought about by an abundance of resources. One believes it can be done through cooperation and the other through competition.
 
Communism has the same dream as free market capitalism, i.e., a classless society brought about by an abundance of resources. One believes it can be done through cooperation and the other through competition.
Although I don't agree that capitalism is done with the objective of creating a society without socioeconomic classes, I do appreciate the fact that you got the communist part right. Indeed, the goal of communists is to empower people to own the means of production or the productive enterprise, either collectively (through socialism = the earlier stage of communism) or as individual consumers when technology reaches the point where a person can produce everything that they consume without anyone else's input or assistance. In that modern, high-tech world, most interactions and relationships are 100% voluntary. That's what advanced technology does, it empowers the individual to become independent and free of coercion.

Atomic Precision Manufacting/Nanotech, is the next revolution after automation and AI. It's the ability to manipulate matter at the atomic level, with precision.












This is "Star Trek" replicator technology.

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We might reach this level of production in 100 years, maybe 300 years. Right now what we have is advanced automation, artificial intelligence, powerful computers, and sensors (advanced sensory data collection, parsing, and accounting).

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With our present technology, unlike in the last century, we can automate most of the processes and logistics of production. We should now be transitioning to worker-owned and run cooperatives, and preparing the mechanisms that will allow us to maintain a democracy while at the same time, centrally planning production through our government, in cooperation with our workforce:

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In the early stage of communism, which we call socialism, a democratically run government in collaboration with productive forces (worker-owned and run cooperatives and labor councils), employing the latest technology available, organizes most if not all of the production of goods and services, to meet everyone's needs.

The goal of production is to meet human needs, not satiate the greed of a small privileged class of exploiters ("employers", whose greed is never satiated). The employees (the former exploitees of the capitalist ruling class), become the owners of the means of production, collectively, organizing and mobilizing production to meet society's needs. In the past that was more difficult, especially on a national scale, when there was not enough technology and socialism was under the heel of extremely hostile, well-developed, and entrenched capitalist powers.

Socialism is the early stage of communism, and can even include capitalism and capitalists in the very beginning, as it gradually moves away from privately owned, for-profit businesses to worker-owned and run cooperatives, and then further, eventually, to non-profit, centrally and rationally planned production. Production is no longer up to the so-called invisible hand of the "free market", but moves away from that chaos into a planned program of production, managed democratically and executed with advanced automation and AI technology.

Maybe in 100 years, we will have the "Star Trek" like technology to empower the individual consumer to manufacture all of the goods that they consume, without even the need for a community or the state. The state according to Marx and Engels, "withers away":

Systems of coercion lose most of their power when technology empowers the individual consumer to produce everything he or she consumes. In my personal opinion, the state will always be needed but it will become much smaller and with much less bureaucracy, as consumers are empowered with advanced technology.

Society will still need a government, to make sure that one suicidal, mentally ill psycho out of a million sane, reasonable people, doesn't produce a nuclear bomb or deadly disease, destroying the community. I believe as long as we're human there will be a danger for people to misuse technology in a way that will compromise public safety. Sometype of government authority must always exist. It will just become smaller and less intrusive. If the government becomes too heavy-handed, people will just pack up their things, hop on their luxury RV, mega-yacht or even spaceship and leave. Bye-bye tyrants. That's the freedom that people have with advanced technology.

Anyways, thanks for not mispresenting communism.

The original, primitive communism of our ancestors:

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Modern, "High Communism" (High-Tech Communism):

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