What We Need Is Bigger Government

[Weatherman2020]

The Obama Justice Department prosecuted U.S. Navy veteran Joe Robertson for digging ponds on his Montana property to fight forest fires, resulting in the then-78-year-old going to federal prison for 18 months starting in 2016 and being fined $130,000, The Daily Signal reported.

The 9th U.S. Circuit of Appeals affirmed the ruling the following year, including the jail time and a requirement that the $130,000 be deducted from Robertson’s Social Security checks.

78-Year-Old Veteran Sent to Prison, Fined $130K for Digging Ponds on Property Under Obama EPA Ruling

 

[Oddball]

 

[Claudette]

The EPA?? Doesn't surprise me in the least.

Hell if you own property and someone dumps waste on it its your responsibility to clean up someone else's mess as its YOUR property even though you didn't dump the crap on it.

 

[buckeye45_73]

Wait what? it's PRIVATE property, fuck these lefties.........

 

[Weatherman2020]

Wait what? it's PRIVATE property, fuck these lefties.........

The audacity of trying to prevent wildfires.

 

[buckeye45_73]

Wait what? it's PRIVATE property, fuck these lefties.........

The audacity of trying to prevent wildfires.

who knew, land management prevents wildfires....which the left blame on global warming.......the left, these people are really really stupid..........these are the people that were slaves and were ok with that......

 

[Stormy Daniels]

The man apparently committed a crime. Are you saying that it wasn't the President's job to enforce the laws of the United States, enacted by Congress?

 

[Weatherman2020]

The man apparently committed a crime. Are you saying that it wasn't the President's job to enforce the laws of the United States, enacted by Congress?

The crime of prevention of wildfires. Hang ‘em high!!!

 

[Stormy Daniels]

I'm reading up on this now. It appears he was convicted of violating the Clean Water Act. The law "prohibits the discharge of dredge or fill material into ‘navigable waters,’ unless authorized by a permit from the Secretary of the Army through the Army Corps of Engineer". According to the 9th Circuit decision, "Robertson discharged dredged and fill material into the surrounding wetlands and an adjacent tributary, which flows to Cataract Creek. Cataract Creek is a tributary of the Boulder River, which in turn is a tributary of the Jefferson River — a traditionally navigable water of the United States."

The facts would have been established in the trial court, and would have to have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. On appeal, the Circuit Court can only review findings of fact for clear error. So, with that being the case, I'm not sure there is much of an issue here.

The few articles I've read so far seem to want to center the questions of the case on whether a creek on private property legally constitutes a "navigable water way," but that not at all what's happening here. From what I can tell, this is entirely about the dredge and fill material being discharged into the surrounding wetlands without first obtaining a permit.

 

[Dick Foster]

The Obama Justice Department prosecuted U.S. Navy veteran Joe Robertson for digging ponds on his Montana property to fight forest fires, resulting in the then-78-year-old going to federal prison for 18 months starting in 2016 and being fined $130,000, The Daily Signal reported.

The 9th U.S. Circuit of Appeals affirmed the ruling the following year, including the jail time and a requirement that the $130,000 be deducted from Robertson’s Social Security checks.

78-Year-Old Veteran Sent to Prison, Fined $130K for Digging Ponds on Property Under Obama EPA Ruling

I wish if it goes to the Supreme Court and is over turned the lower court judges had to serve his sentance. Its high time to start locking up the 9th circus nitwits for violating the too stupid to live statute.

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

The Obama Justice Department prosecuted U.S. Navy veteran Joe Robertson for digging ponds on his Montana property to fight forest fires, resulting in the then-78-year-old going to federal prison for 18 months starting in 2016 and being fined $130,000, The Daily Signal reported.

The 9th U.S. Circuit of Appeals affirmed the ruling the following year, including the jail time and a requirement that the $130,000 be deducted from Robertson’s Social Security checks.

78-Year-Old Veteran Sent to Prison, Fined $130K for Digging Ponds on Property Under Obama EPA Ruling

Yeah but did they find any wayward balloons on the property ?
cause like a good nazi i would of doubled the fine

 

[Weatherman2020]

The Obama Justice Department prosecuted U.S. Navy veteran Joe Robertson for digging ponds on his Montana property to fight forest fires, resulting in the then-78-year-old going to federal prison for 18 months starting in 2016 and being fined $130,000, The Daily Signal reported.

The 9th U.S. Circuit of Appeals affirmed the ruling the following year, including the jail time and a requirement that the $130,000 be deducted from Robertson’s Social Security checks.

78-Year-Old Veteran Sent to Prison, Fined $130K for Digging Ponds on Property Under Obama EPA Ruling

Yeah but did they find any wayward balloons on the property ?
cause like a good nazi i would of doubled the fine

Bag of straws were found

 

[Weatherman2020]

I'm reading up on this now. It appears he was convicted of violating the Clean Water Act. The law "prohibits the discharge of dredge or fill material into ‘navigable waters,’ unless authorized by a permit from the Secretary of the Army through the Army Corps of Engineer". According to the 9th Circuit decision, "Robertson discharged dredged and fill material into the surrounding wetlands and an adjacent tributary, which flows to Cataract Creek. Cataract Creek is a tributary of the Boulder River, which in turn is a tributary of the Jefferson River — a traditionally navigable water of the United States."

The facts would have been established in the trial court, and would have to have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. On appeal, the Circuit Court can only review findings of fact for clear error. So, with that being the case, I'm not sure there is much of an issue here.

The few articles I've read so far seem to want to center the questions of the case on whether a creek on private property legally constitutes a "navigable water way," but that not at all what's happening here. From what I can tell, this is entirely about the dredge and fill material being discharged into the surrounding wetlands without first obtaining a permit.

Navigable Waters = Ditch you can’t get your ankles wet in.

 

[Weatherman2020]

I'm reading up on this now. It appears he was convicted of violating the Clean Water Act. The law "prohibits the discharge of dredge or fill material into ‘navigable waters,’ unless authorized by a permit from the Secretary of the Army through the Army Corps of Engineer". According to the 9th Circuit decision, "Robertson discharged dredged and fill material into the surrounding wetlands and an adjacent tributary, which flows to Cataract Creek. Cataract Creek is a tributary of the Boulder River, which in turn is a tributary of the Jefferson River — a traditionally navigable water of the United States."

The facts would have been established in the trial court, and would have to have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. On appeal, the Circuit Court can only review findings of fact for clear error. So, with that being the case, I'm not sure there is much of an issue here.

The few articles I've read so far seem to want to center the questions of the case on whether a creek on private property legally constitutes a "navigable water way," but that not at all what's happening here. From what I can tell, this is entirely about the dredge and fill material being discharged into the surrounding wetlands without first obtaining a permit.

“redefine ‘waters of the United States’ so broadly that it covers virtually any wet spot – or occasionally wet spot – in the country, including ditches, drains, seasonal puddle-like depressions, intermittent streams, ponds, impoundments, prairie potholes, and large ‘buffer areas’ of land adjacent to every waterway.”

Thanks, EPA: Your New 'Navigable Waters' Rule Strengthens The Case Against Administrative Law

 

[Stormy Daniels]

I wish if it goes to the Supreme Court and is over turned the lower court judges had to serve his sentance. Its high time to start locking up the 9th circus nitwits for violating the too stupid to live statute.

He was found guilty by a jury of his peers, nitwit.

 

[anynameyouwish]

The Obama Justice Department prosecuted U.S. Navy veteran Joe Robertson for digging ponds on his Montana property to fight forest fires, resulting in the then-78-year-old going to federal prison for 18 months starting in 2016 and being fined $130,000, The Daily Signal reported.

The 9th U.S. Circuit of Appeals affirmed the ruling the following year, including the jail time and a requirement that the $130,000 be deducted from Robertson’s Social Security checks.

78-Year-Old Veteran Sent to Prison, Fined $130K for Digging Ponds on Property Under Obama EPA Ruling

well....

if you are to continue the conservative war on pot and keep destroying the lives of good people simply because they smoke pot then you will need a NANNY STATE and BIG GOVERNMENT to do it.

and if you are finally going to do something about "the liberal problem" in the media and in schools then you will need a NANNY STATE and BIG GOVERNMENT to do it.

if you intend to put gays and atheists back in their respective closets you will need a NANNY STATE and BIG GOVERNMENT to do it.....

you can't have lots of laws criminalizing everything that you hate without BIG GOVERNMENT to do handle it for you.

 

[Stormy Daniels]

“redefine ‘waters of the United States’ so broadly that it covers virtually any wet spot – or occasionally wet spot – in the country, including ditches, drains, seasonal puddle-like depressions, intermittent streams, ponds, impoundments, prairie potholes, and large ‘buffer areas’ of land adjacent to every waterway.”

Actually, the 9th Circuit applied a jurisdictional test from the Supreme Court in Rapanos v. United States in 2006. In that case, Scalia issued a plurality opinion and Kennedy issued a concurring opinion where he agreed with the other four attached to Scalia's opinion, but for differing reasons. Kennedy applied a different, more narrow test for CWA jurisdiction. In later cases the 9th Circuit held that Kennedy's test was the correct precedent to apply, because it was the minimum standard to which a majority of justices in the Rapanos case agreed.

Roberton's appeal argued that there were conflicting precedents within the 9th Circuit, and that the jury should have been allowed to decide the definition of "waters of the United States." But the court rejected that argument, re-affirming that Kennedy's jurisdictional test was the correct and controlling precedent.

So this thread is turning out to be a fun irony. The court isn't applying a big government approach. To the contrary, Scalia and several other conservative justices one applied a comparatively bigger government view by applying a broader jurisdictional test for the CWA. Kennedy applied a narrower, smaller government test, and the 9th circuit adopted that standard. But here you are, clamoring about big government because you couldn't be bothered to get educated on the subject before you began shooting your mouth off.

 

[Weatherman2020]

The Obama Justice Department prosecuted U.S. Navy veteran Joe Robertson for digging ponds on his Montana property to fight forest fires, resulting in the then-78-year-old going to federal prison for 18 months starting in 2016 and being fined $130,000, The Daily Signal reported.

The 9th U.S. Circuit of Appeals affirmed the ruling the following year, including the jail time and a requirement that the $130,000 be deducted from Robertson’s Social Security checks.

78-Year-Old Veteran Sent to Prison, Fined $130K for Digging Ponds on Property Under Obama EPA Ruling

well....

if you are to continue the conservative war on pot and keep destroying the lives of good people simply because they smoke pot then you will need a NANNY STATE and BIG GOVERNMENT to do it.

and if you are finally going to do something about "the liberal problem" in the media and in schools then you will need a NANNY STATE and BIG GOVERNMENT to do it.

if you intend to put gays and atheists back in their respective closets you will need a NANNY STATE and BIG GOVERNMENT to do it.....

you can't have lots of laws criminalizing everything that you hate without BIG GOVERNMENT to do handle it for you.

What we need is bigger government.

 

[Weatherman2020]

“redefine ‘waters of the United States’ so broadly that it covers virtually any wet spot – or occasionally wet spot – in the country, including ditches, drains, seasonal puddle-like depressions, intermittent streams, ponds, impoundments, prairie potholes, and large ‘buffer areas’ of land adjacent to every waterway.”

Actually, the 9th Circuit applied a jurisdictional test from the Supreme Court in Rapanos v. United States in 2006. In that case, Scalia issued a plurality opinion and Kennedy issued a concurring opinion where he agreed with the other four attached to Scalia's opinion, but for differing reasons. Kennedy applied a different, more narrow test for CWA jurisdiction. In later cases the 9th Circuit held that Kennedy's test was the correct precedent to apply, because it was the minimum standard to which a majority of justices in the Rapanos case agreed.

Roberton's appeal argued that there were conflicting precedents within the 9th Circuit, and that the jury should have been allowed to decide the definition of "waters of the United States." But the court rejected that argument, re-affirming that Kennedy's jurisdictional test was the correct and controlling precedent.

So this thread is turning out to be a fun irony. The court isn't applying a big government approach. To the contrary, Scalia and several other conservative justices one applied a comparatively bigger government view by applying a broader jurisdictional test for the CWA. Kennedy applied a narrower, smaller government test, and the 9th circuit adopted that standard. But here you are, clamoring about big government because you couldn't be bothered to get educated on the subject before you began shooting your mouth off.

Navigable Waters meaning his rain gutter.