When will liberals admit their philosophy is a complete failure?

[Coyote]

Poverty is driven by many different factors, sometimes having nothing to do with decisions one makes.

What do you mean by “my horror of restrictions”? We have not discussed restrictions, if you are psychic....you need to tune your receiver.

Name a cause of poverty - any cause that you think has nothing to do with the decisions one makes.

Catastrophic illness.
Lack of jobs in an area, for example when industries closed up and moved overseas, decimating the towns that relied on them — the so called rust belt, or in my state, the mines. Sure they can other jobs, but none pay near the jobs they lost.
Skyrocketing housing costs in areas where work is available.
Lack of education and fewer opportunities for good jobs without it.
Lack of transportation.

• Catastrophic illness is a problem but the Constitution provides for a right to bankruptcy. Even better, pay the bills but the law limits the collection of debt to 7 years. It is a sad situation that does have limited impact on wealth for a short time. It's a rare, but sad, exception so I'll give you that one.
• Lack of jobs in an area? When I got out of the Navy, I moved to Wyoming. After a few years of struggling with limited opportunity for my technical skills (I even spent a half-year working in a feed mill), I moved to Memphis to get a better job. From Memphis, I moved to Jackson, MS, for a better job. From there to LA, and from there to Ventura. I had a family to feed. I moved where I had to in order to improve my condition and that of my family. Ultimately, I ended up in Oklahoma and am on my third career even in Oklahoma. No jobs in your area? Load up your car and move.
• Skyrocketing housing costs? Bull crap. Live in a slum. Live within your means. Every city in the US has illegal immigrants making very low wages living in them. Suck it up and do what it takes until you can live in the nicer neighborhoods.
• Lack of education and fewer opportunities? You're seriously going to tell me, a high-school dropout, about opportunities without education? I've been extremely successful without an education. Not to imply that others should drop out because, even at the top where I am, I still face obstacles because I don't have an education. I find myself lacking in some of the soft skills, or having developed them far too late in life, compared to those who had an easy route through college. But that doesn't mean a person can't be very successful without a fancy diploma on the wall. I have many working for me now with Masters Degrees in various technical specialties. I don't have any at the moment but I've also had PhD's working for me.
• Lack of transportation: I live 15 miles out from the nearest town. Mostly I have had to drive to larger Oklahoma towns or cities to work but for a few years I worked in the local town. In those years, I used to see a guy walking to work every day, and walking home every night. I stopped and offered a ride one night but he turned me down. For all those years, he walked 15 miles to and from town for work. I left that job in 2004 and hadn't seen the guy since... until I got back hanging around town again now in the COVID lockdown and, low-and-behold, I see the very same guy walking along the highway every morning and night, walking to and from work. And if you can't walk, get a fucking bicycle.

In many cases, you are describing your personal situation as if it would or could apply to everyone, but it doesn’t.


1. Lack of jobs. Easy to move? Here are some factors...you have a house and a mortgage, in a place where you can’t possibly sell your house for close to what you paid (Detroit comes to mind)....maybe, to make it worse, there has been a huge water contamination problem with lead (Flint comes to mind) and who in their right mind will buy it? Where do you get the money to uproot your family, to a new city and pay for new housing?

Another consideration, when you had your job, you lived in your home in proximity to your extended family who could be relied upon for childcare while you worked or got training or education. You are moving to a new city for what is likely not a high paying job and you now have the added cost of childcare. If you are a single parent that can be catastrophic.

What if, like many now, you are responsible for aging parents? Are you going to move them as well?

What if the jobs you are offered are in areas where the cost of housing is way out of proportion to wages, and you can’t afford a car? Not everyone can walk 15 miles.

Always a what if. Always an excuse. The things you mention are not the cause of general poverty. There may be some who struggle with those things but those are exceptions.

I don't care about the cost of housing. Rent a refrigerator box. Don't let leftists like Coyote tell you that you can't get ahead.

Yes, move your parents, too, if necessary.

And if you own a house and have a mortgage then you're not that poor, are you? Sell the house. If you're upside down on your mortgage then that's already because of choices you made.

Walk away from the mortgage. If you live in Flint - you know, the place where the Democrat mayor and governor conspired to kill its citizens - and you haven't walked away from your mortgage you're a fucking idiot. The water is killing you. Get out. You'll have to rent for 7 to 10 years, depending on whether your lender pushes you into bankruptcy, until the credit is off your record. BFD.

YOu don't need childcare if mother stays home and takes care of the children. Oh sure, that means you'll have to settle for a 200K house when you get to that 100K salary instead of a 400K house but the option of staying in poverty is worse. Most women of poor families lose money by working. They pay more for childcare, second cars, clothes, buying McDonald's for dinner rather than cooking at home, than they make. The idea that women belong in the workforce or they don't have value is a lie and is the most demeaning thing to women to happen in the past 100 years. If a woman wants to work, fine. If she can afford to work - you know, buy the car, pay the babysitter, etc., then that's fine. But most low wage women are better off at home raising their children.

Oh, wait, you gasp out loud. What about single mothers. More personal decisions that made them poor: Marry a man you love and who loves you. Then have children. Don't quit your marriage because you're too fucking weak to work through tough times. Raise your children together. Father provides, mother nurtures. Or reverse it and mother works and father nurtures - just as soon as fathers can give birth and breastfeed.

Poverty in America is ALWAYS, with very, very, few exceptions, the result of personal choices.

Oh wow talk about elitist viewsright-wing divorced from reality. Why don't you explain to the mother of three, wanting to leave an abusive alcolic husband that she should just "work through hard times"...typical rightwinger.

 

[Levant]

Oh brother, so now it's the Drmocrat Plantation. Can you conceive of a discussion with out the standard talking points? If the schools are bad, do something about it... who is it that screams about cutting funding for education...oh ya..it is you guys isnt it? (hold on...whose plantation is it really...). Invest in public schools, don't expect me to subsidize your kids' private or religious education when you don't even want to pay for essentials like food.

The Baltimore schools spend the 2nd highest per child of any school system in the country. Adding more government to a problem is not a solution. And I don't ask you to subsidize my children's education. Or my grandchildren's or my great-grandchildren's. What I ask is that you quit requiring me to pay for the failed, worthless, public schools so that I can use what I pay in school taxes to help put mine own in schools that work.

To the communist, every time government fails their answer is to give government more money. It's never that government just should not be doing the things at which it is failing.

Yes, the Democrat plantation. It is the left who tell minorities that they cannot make it on their own, that they're second-class and they can't achieve what whitey achieves so their only path to survival is through the Democratic plantation and handouts.

I suppose there are some but I don't know any poor black Republicans or conservatives. All the poor black people I know are Democrats and have been for 55 years. And yet, they're still poor. Being Democrat has done nothing for them except to hold them back.

Black homeownership rates haven’t changed much in the 50 years since the Fair Housing Act

The financial collapse wiped out gains made in the early 2000s, damaging the path to a vital wealth-building tool.

www.curbed.com

Notice how low the black home ownership is? Interestingly, it peaked during Bush and crashed during Obama and is starting back up again under Trump.

Bottom line is that Republicans and conservatives want to see all people, regardless of race, prosper and have opportunity. Along with that, they have empathy for the downtrodden black and hispanic communities and want them to understand that the American dream is available to them; they're not destined to a life in the projects or on SNAP. We want them to have the same opportunity to good education as have white Americans. They want more opportunity for all. Democrats want locked in votes.

 

[Levant]

Oh wow talk about elitist viewsright-wing divorced from reality. Why don't you explain to the mother of three, wanting to leave an abusive alcolic husband that she should just "work through hard times"...typical rightwinger.

Still the exception. You always use the exception cases to justify the choices of all. I know of plenty of women who did leave alcoholic, abusive, husbands and turned their lives around. Can't, can't, can't. That's the only message you and the left have for people of color.

 

[Cecilie1200]

[

Here's a conservative policy better than Social Security and Medicare: Personal Responsibility.

Here's another: Families supporting their own.

Here's another: Communities supporting their own.

Here's another: The Constitution of the United States of America.

That is the age old divide between conservative and liberal ideology: what is incumbent on the individual vs. what is incumbent on the state. Individual responsibility vs. collective responsibility.

What did and does a society built on “personal responsibility“ and no social programs (social responsibility) look like?

America, stupid. Or is history among all of the other topics you're so completely ignorant of?

Aparently I have more knowledge of history than you do since America has a network of social programs and safety nets and has for some time.

I suspect your ignorance is congenital and unfixable given the burden of your extreme ideology.

Moron, you don't even know what history is. Maybe you should try looking it up or is that beyond you're limited mental ability too.

....my goodness, your response is....awesome....for a kindergartner. Why don’t you enlighten us. Tell us how the US is an example of a Land of Personal Responsibility, with none of those dumb liberal safetynets. I really want about it since it certainly isn’t now and your entire life has been surrounded by those safety nets.

(smile) Do you keep having kids to get a raise? That's what Welfare Queens do....

Is that what you did?

I'm a guy, that wouldn't work the same way.

Nothing stopping you being a baby daddy and having custody.

Well, other than the mother.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Poverty is driven by many different factors, sometimes having nothing to do with decisions one makes.

What do you mean by “my horror of restrictions”? We have not discussed restrictions, if you are psychic....you need to tune your receiver.

Name a cause of poverty - any cause that you think has nothing to do with the decisions one makes.

Catastrophic illness.
Lack of jobs in an area, for example when industries closed up and moved overseas, decimating the towns that relied on them — the so called rust belt, or in my state, the mines. Sure they can other jobs, but none pay near the jobs they lost.
Skyrocketing housing costs in areas where work is available.
Lack of education and fewer opportunities for good jobs without it.
Lack of transportation.

• Catastrophic illness is a problem but the Constitution provides for a right to bankruptcy. Even better, pay the bills but the law limits the collection of debt to 7 years. It is a sad situation that does have limited impact on wealth for a short time. It's a rare, but sad, exception so I'll give you that one.
• Lack of jobs in an area? When I got out of the Navy, I moved to Wyoming. After a few years of struggling with limited opportunity for my technical skills (I even spent a half-year working in a feed mill), I moved to Memphis to get a better job. From Memphis, I moved to Jackson, MS, for a better job. From there to LA, and from there to Ventura. I had a family to feed. I moved where I had to in order to improve my condition and that of my family. Ultimately, I ended up in Oklahoma and am on my third career even in Oklahoma. No jobs in your area? Load up your car and move.
• Skyrocketing housing costs? Bull crap. Live in a slum. Live within your means. Every city in the US has illegal immigrants making very low wages living in them. Suck it up and do what it takes until you can live in the nicer neighborhoods.
• Lack of education and fewer opportunities? You're seriously going to tell me, a high-school dropout, about opportunities without education? I've been extremely successful without an education. Not to imply that others should drop out because, even at the top where I am, I still face obstacles because I don't have an education. I find myself lacking in some of the soft skills, or having developed them far too late in life, compared to those who had an easy route through college. But that doesn't mean a person can't be very successful without a fancy diploma on the wall. I have many working for me now with Masters Degrees in various technical specialties. I don't have any at the moment but I've also had PhD's working for me.
• Lack of transportation: I live 15 miles out from the nearest town. Mostly I have had to drive to larger Oklahoma towns or cities to work but for a few years I worked in the local town. In those years, I used to see a guy walking to work every day, and walking home every night. I stopped and offered a ride one night but he turned me down. For all those years, he walked 15 miles to and from town for work. I left that job in 2004 and hadn't seen the guy since... until I got back hanging around town again now in the COVID lockdown and, low-and-behold, I see the very same guy walking along the highway every morning and night, walking to and from work. And if you can't walk, get a fucking bicycle.

In many cases, you are describing your personal situation as if it would or could apply to everyone, but it doesn’t.


1. Lack of jobs. Easy to move? Here are some factors...you have a house and a mortgage, in a place where you can’t possibly sell your house for close to what you paid (Detroit comes to mind)....maybe, to make it worse, there has been a huge water contamination problem with lead (Flint comes to mind) and who in their right mind will buy it? Where do you get the money to uproot your family, to a new city and pay for new housing?

Another consideration, when you had your job, you lived in your home in proximity to your extended family who could be relied upon for childcare while you worked or got training or education. You are moving to a new city for what is likely not a high paying job and you now have the added cost of childcare. If you are a single parent that can be catastrophic.

What if, like many now, you are responsible for aging parents? Are you going to move them as well?

What if the jobs you are offered are in areas where the cost of housing is way out of proportion to wages, and you can’t afford a car? Not everyone can walk 15 miles.

Always a what if. Always an excuse. The things you mention are not the cause of general poverty. There may be some who struggle with those things but those are exceptions.

I don't care about the cost of housing. Rent a refrigerator box. Don't let leftists like Coyote tell you that you can't get ahead.

Yes, move your parents, too, if necessary.

And if you own a house and have a mortgage then you're not that poor, are you? Sell the house. If you're upside down on your mortgage then that's already because of choices you made.

Walk away from the mortgage. If you live in Flint - you know, the place where the Democrat mayor and governor conspired to kill its citizens - and you haven't walked away from your mortgage you're a fucking idiot. The water is killing you. Get out. You'll have to rent for 7 to 10 years, depending on whether your lender pushes you into bankruptcy, until the credit is off your record. BFD.

YOu don't need childcare if mother stays home and takes care of the children. Oh sure, that means you'll have to settle for a 200K house when you get to that 100K salary instead of a 400K house but the option of staying in poverty is worse. Most women of poor families lose money by working. They pay more for childcare, second cars, clothes, buying McDonald's for dinner rather than cooking at home, than they make. The idea that women belong in the workforce or they don't have value is a lie and is the most demeaning thing to women to happen in the past 100 years. If a woman wants to work, fine. If she can afford to work - you know, buy the car, pay the babysitter, etc., then that's fine. But most low wage women are better off at home raising their children.

Oh, wait, you gasp out loud. What about single mothers. More personal decisions that made them poor: Marry a man you love and who loves you. Then have children. Don't quit your marriage because you're too fucking weak to work through tough times. Raise your children together. Father provides, mother nurtures. Or reverse it and mother works and father nurtures - just as soon as fathers can give birth and breastfeed.

Poverty in America is ALWAYS, with very, very, few exceptions, the result of personal choices.

Oh wow talk about elitist viewsright-wing divorced from reality. Why don't you explain to the mother of three, wanting to leave an abusive alcolic husband that she should just "work through hard times"...typical rightwinger.

People do that very sort of explaining all the time. Some of them are called "domestic abuse counselors". Perhaps you've heard of them.

What would YOU like to explain to her? That her situation is hopeless, and she should just learn to live with it, but here's a welfare check and some food stamps, good luck?

 

[Coyote]

Oh wow talk about elitist viewsright-wing divorced from reality. Why don't you explain to the mother of three, wanting to leave an abusive alcolic husband that she should just "work through hard times"...typical rightwinger.

Still the exception. You always use the exception cases to justify the choices of all. I know of plenty of women who did leave alcoholic, abusive, husbands and turned their lives around. Can't, can't, can't. That's the only message you and the left have for people of color.

Bullshit. What you call the exception is often not, that is just an excuse on your part. You rightists (typically) simplify complex problems into simple black and white issues. You are no different than then the pro-big government types with their one size fits all solutions, only for you, your one size is “character” if someone doesn’t succeed it is a character flaw and nothing else. In your mind, that comes down to most blacks are lazy and don’t want work or are thugs, that is your message for blacks.

You know “plenty” of women who left abusive relationships...I doubt that. Some do. Some manage new lives. Some lose their kids in the process. Some lose their lives in the process. restraining orders are often useless and laws against stalkers are weak. Some become single mothers on welfare trying to get ahead, but you think they should have stayed and worked out the bumps in the marriage.

The causes of poverty are many, and are different across the country and community by community. That is why one-size-fits-all programs dont work and why your lazy-bastard theory doesn’t either, because prior to a safety net, poverty was much more dire, far more extensive, and children starved to death. That is the world you consider an ideal?

And please...enough with the welfare queen stereotype.

 

[Coyote]

Poverty is driven by many different factors, sometimes having nothing to do with decisions one makes.

What do you mean by “my horror of restrictions”? We have not discussed restrictions, if you are psychic....you need to tune your receiver.

Name a cause of poverty - any cause that you think has nothing to do with the decisions one makes.

Catastrophic illness.
Lack of jobs in an area, for example when industries closed up and moved overseas, decimating the towns that relied on them — the so called rust belt, or in my state, the mines. Sure they can other jobs, but none pay near the jobs they lost.
Skyrocketing housing costs in areas where work is available.
Lack of education and fewer opportunities for good jobs without it.
Lack of transportation.

• Catastrophic illness is a problem but the Constitution provides for a right to bankruptcy. Even better, pay the bills but the law limits the collection of debt to 7 years. It is a sad situation that does have limited impact on wealth for a short time. It's a rare, but sad, exception so I'll give you that one.
• Lack of jobs in an area? When I got out of the Navy, I moved to Wyoming. After a few years of struggling with limited opportunity for my technical skills (I even spent a half-year working in a feed mill), I moved to Memphis to get a better job. From Memphis, I moved to Jackson, MS, for a better job. From there to LA, and from there to Ventura. I had a family to feed. I moved where I had to in order to improve my condition and that of my family. Ultimately, I ended up in Oklahoma and am on my third career even in Oklahoma. No jobs in your area? Load up your car and move.
• Skyrocketing housing costs? Bull crap. Live in a slum. Live within your means. Every city in the US has illegal immigrants making very low wages living in them. Suck it up and do what it takes until you can live in the nicer neighborhoods.
• Lack of education and fewer opportunities? You're seriously going to tell me, a high-school dropout, about opportunities without education? I've been extremely successful without an education. Not to imply that others should drop out because, even at the top where I am, I still face obstacles because I don't have an education. I find myself lacking in some of the soft skills, or having developed them far too late in life, compared to those who had an easy route through college. But that doesn't mean a person can't be very successful without a fancy diploma on the wall. I have many working for me now with Masters Degrees in various technical specialties. I don't have any at the moment but I've also had PhD's working for me.
• Lack of transportation: I live 15 miles out from the nearest town. Mostly I have had to drive to larger Oklahoma towns or cities to work but for a few years I worked in the local town. In those years, I used to see a guy walking to work every day, and walking home every night. I stopped and offered a ride one night but he turned me down. For all those years, he walked 15 miles to and from town for work. I left that job in 2004 and hadn't seen the guy since... until I got back hanging around town again now in the COVID lockdown and, low-and-behold, I see the very same guy walking along the highway every morning and night, walking to and from work. And if you can't walk, get a fucking bicycle.

In many cases, you are describing your personal situation as if it would or could apply to everyone, but it doesn’t.


1. Lack of jobs. Easy to move? Here are some factors...you have a house and a mortgage, in a place where you can’t possibly sell your house for close to what you paid (Detroit comes to mind)....maybe, to make it worse, there has been a huge water contamination problem with lead (Flint comes to mind) and who in their right mind will buy it? Where do you get the money to uproot your family, to a new city and pay for new housing?

Another consideration, when you had your job, you lived in your home in proximity to your extended family who could be relied upon for childcare while you worked or got training or education. You are moving to a new city for what is likely not a high paying job and you now have the added cost of childcare. If you are a single parent that can be catastrophic.

What if, like many now, you are responsible for aging parents? Are you going to move them as well?

What if the jobs you are offered are in areas where the cost of housing is way out of proportion to wages, and you can’t afford a car? Not everyone can walk 15 miles.

Always a what if. Always an excuse. The things you mention are not the cause of general poverty. There may be some who struggle with those things but those are exceptions.

I don't care about the cost of housing. Rent a refrigerator box. Don't let leftists like Coyote tell you that you can't get ahead.

Yes, move your parents, too, if necessary.

And if you own a house and have a mortgage then you're not that poor, are you? Sell the house. If you're upside down on your mortgage then that's already because of choices you made.

Walk away from the mortgage. If you live in Flint - you know, the place where the Democrat mayor and governor conspired to kill its citizens - and you haven't walked away from your mortgage you're a fucking idiot. The water is killing you. Get out. You'll have to rent for 7 to 10 years, depending on whether your lender pushes you into bankruptcy, until the credit is off your record. BFD.

YOu don't need childcare if mother stays home and takes care of the children. Oh sure, that means you'll have to settle for a 200K house when you get to that 100K salary instead of a 400K house but the option of staying in poverty is worse. Most women of poor families lose money by working. They pay more for childcare, second cars, clothes, buying McDonald's for dinner rather than cooking at home, than they make. The idea that women belong in the workforce or they don't have value is a lie and is the most demeaning thing to women to happen in the past 100 years. If a woman wants to work, fine. If she can afford to work - you know, buy the car, pay the babysitter, etc., then that's fine. But most low wage women are better off at home raising their children.

Oh, wait, you gasp out loud. What about single mothers. More personal decisions that made them poor: Marry a man you love and who loves you. Then have children. Don't quit your marriage because you're too fucking weak to work through tough times. Raise your children together. Father provides, mother nurtures. Or reverse it and mother works and father nurtures - just as soon as fathers can give birth and breastfeed.

Poverty in America is ALWAYS, with very, very, few exceptions, the result of personal choices.

Oh wow talk about elitist viewsright-wing divorced from reality. Why don't you explain to the mother of three, wanting to leave an abusive alcolic husband that she should just "work through hard times"...typical rightwinger.

People do that very sort of explaining all the time. Some of them are called "domestic abuse counselors". Perhaps you've heard of them.

What would YOU like to explain to her? That her situation is hopeless, and she should just learn to live with it, but here's a welfare check and some food stamps, good luck?

Of course they do.

What I wouldn’t tell her, is what the poster I was replying to would - I.e. just work through the bumps, learn to live with it, can’t have more single mothers getting welfare right?

 

[Levant]

Bullshit. What you call the exception is often not, that is just an excuse on your part. You rightists (typically) simplify complex problems into simple black and white issues. You are no different than then the pro-big government types with their one size fits all solutions, only for you, your one size is “character” if someone doesn’t succeed it is a character flaw and nothing else. In your mind, that comes down to most blacks are lazy and don’t want work or are thugs, that is your message for blacks.

You know “plenty” of women who left abusive relationships...I doubt that. Some do. Some manage new lives. Some lose their kids in the process. Some lose their lives in the process. restraining orders are often useless and laws against stalkers are weak. Some become single mothers on welfare trying to get ahead, but you think they should have stayed and worked out the bumps in the marriage.

The causes of poverty are many, and are different across the country and community by community. That is why one-size-fits-all programs dont work and why your lazy-bastard theory doesn’t either, because prior to a safety net, poverty was much more dire, far more extensive, and children starved to death. That is the world you consider an ideal?

And please...enough with the welfare queen stereotype.

Not succeeding isn't necessarily a character flaw but not trying is most definitely a character flaw.

The question is what is success? People should create their own goals in life. If their life circumstances change, they should adjust their goals. Not accomplishing their goals means they set goals too high, a flaw, or they didn't try, a flaw. I have nothing against poverty. I know people who have chosen it and accepted it and lived within their means without asking others to pay for their decisions. Nothing at all wrong with that.

Many people accept low wages in order to gain other advantages: low stress, more time with family, living where their relatives live, living in a small town, etc.

Here's a guy who succeeded, at least up to the writing of his article, on living without money... Success. You're really quite narrow minded in your view of success.

Hawt Ish ▶ The Man That Lives Without Money

There is an awe that fills me as I read this article. I find this philosophy deep within my soul, yet I have such a hard time vocalizing the thoughts exactly. It’s as if the author has reache…

hawtish.wordpress.com

 

[Levant]

Poverty is driven by many different factors, sometimes having nothing to do with decisions one makes.

What do you mean by “my horror of restrictions”? We have not discussed restrictions, if you are psychic....you need to tune your receiver.

Name a cause of poverty - any cause that you think has nothing to do with the decisions one makes.

Catastrophic illness.
Lack of jobs in an area, for example when industries closed up and moved overseas, decimating the towns that relied on them — the so called rust belt, or in my state, the mines. Sure they can other jobs, but none pay near the jobs they lost.
Skyrocketing housing costs in areas where work is available.
Lack of education and fewer opportunities for good jobs without it.
Lack of transportation.

• Catastrophic illness is a problem but the Constitution provides for a right to bankruptcy. Even better, pay the bills but the law limits the collection of debt to 7 years. It is a sad situation that does have limited impact on wealth for a short time. It's a rare, but sad, exception so I'll give you that one.
• Lack of jobs in an area? When I got out of the Navy, I moved to Wyoming. After a few years of struggling with limited opportunity for my technical skills (I even spent a half-year working in a feed mill), I moved to Memphis to get a better job. From Memphis, I moved to Jackson, MS, for a better job. From there to LA, and from there to Ventura. I had a family to feed. I moved where I had to in order to improve my condition and that of my family. Ultimately, I ended up in Oklahoma and am on my third career even in Oklahoma. No jobs in your area? Load up your car and move.
• Skyrocketing housing costs? Bull crap. Live in a slum. Live within your means. Every city in the US has illegal immigrants making very low wages living in them. Suck it up and do what it takes until you can live in the nicer neighborhoods.
• Lack of education and fewer opportunities? You're seriously going to tell me, a high-school dropout, about opportunities without education? I've been extremely successful without an education. Not to imply that others should drop out because, even at the top where I am, I still face obstacles because I don't have an education. I find myself lacking in some of the soft skills, or having developed them far too late in life, compared to those who had an easy route through college. But that doesn't mean a person can't be very successful without a fancy diploma on the wall. I have many working for me now with Masters Degrees in various technical specialties. I don't have any at the moment but I've also had PhD's working for me.
• Lack of transportation: I live 15 miles out from the nearest town. Mostly I have had to drive to larger Oklahoma towns or cities to work but for a few years I worked in the local town. In those years, I used to see a guy walking to work every day, and walking home every night. I stopped and offered a ride one night but he turned me down. For all those years, he walked 15 miles to and from town for work. I left that job in 2004 and hadn't seen the guy since... until I got back hanging around town again now in the COVID lockdown and, low-and-behold, I see the very same guy walking along the highway every morning and night, walking to and from work. And if you can't walk, get a fucking bicycle.

In many cases, you are describing your personal situation as if it would or could apply to everyone, but it doesn’t.


1. Lack of jobs. Easy to move? Here are some factors...you have a house and a mortgage, in a place where you can’t possibly sell your house for close to what you paid (Detroit comes to mind)....maybe, to make it worse, there has been a huge water contamination problem with lead (Flint comes to mind) and who in their right mind will buy it? Where do you get the money to uproot your family, to a new city and pay for new housing?

Another consideration, when you had your job, you lived in your home in proximity to your extended family who could be relied upon for childcare while you worked or got training or education. You are moving to a new city for what is likely not a high paying job and you now have the added cost of childcare. If you are a single parent that can be catastrophic.

What if, like many now, you are responsible for aging parents? Are you going to move them as well?

What if the jobs you are offered are in areas where the cost of housing is way out of proportion to wages, and you can’t afford a car? Not everyone can walk 15 miles.

Always a what if. Always an excuse. The things you mention are not the cause of general poverty. There may be some who struggle with those things but those are exceptions.

I don't care about the cost of housing. Rent a refrigerator box. Don't let leftists like Coyote tell you that you can't get ahead.

Yes, move your parents, too, if necessary.

And if you own a house and have a mortgage then you're not that poor, are you? Sell the house. If you're upside down on your mortgage then that's already because of choices you made.

Walk away from the mortgage. If you live in Flint - you know, the place where the Democrat mayor and governor conspired to kill its citizens - and you haven't walked away from your mortgage you're a fucking idiot. The water is killing you. Get out. You'll have to rent for 7 to 10 years, depending on whether your lender pushes you into bankruptcy, until the credit is off your record. BFD.

YOu don't need childcare if mother stays home and takes care of the children. Oh sure, that means you'll have to settle for a 200K house when you get to that 100K salary instead of a 400K house but the option of staying in poverty is worse. Most women of poor families lose money by working. They pay more for childcare, second cars, clothes, buying McDonald's for dinner rather than cooking at home, than they make. The idea that women belong in the workforce or they don't have value is a lie and is the most demeaning thing to women to happen in the past 100 years. If a woman wants to work, fine. If she can afford to work - you know, buy the car, pay the babysitter, etc., then that's fine. But most low wage women are better off at home raising their children.

Oh, wait, you gasp out loud. What about single mothers. More personal decisions that made them poor: Marry a man you love and who loves you. Then have children. Don't quit your marriage because you're too fucking weak to work through tough times. Raise your children together. Father provides, mother nurtures. Or reverse it and mother works and father nurtures - just as soon as fathers can give birth and breastfeed.

Poverty in America is ALWAYS, with very, very, few exceptions, the result of personal choices.

Oh wow talk about elitist viewsright-wing divorced from reality. Why don't you explain to the mother of three, wanting to leave an abusive alcolic husband that she should just "work through hard times"...typical rightwinger.

People do that very sort of explaining all the time. Some of them are called "domestic abuse counselors". Perhaps you've heard of them.

What would YOU like to explain to her? That her situation is hopeless, and she should just learn to live with it, but here's a welfare check and some food stamps, good luck?

Of course they do.

What I wouldn’t tell her, is what the poster I was replying to would - I.e. just work through the bumps, learn to live with it, can’t have more single mothers getting welfare right?

You're a liar. I didn't say I would tell her to work through the bumps and learn to live with it.

What I would tell her is that she can survive it. I would help her identify career paths that would lead to her doing work she loved in ways that would provide for her and her children in the way she wanted, and was willing to work to do, to provide for her family.

You, on the other hand, would tell her that she's a victim and a woman. She can't make it by herself, ever. Get on welfare, get on WIC, SNAP, HUD, and we'll take care of you as long as you vote for us.

I would offer this site:

10 Entrepreneurial Single Mom Success Stories That Will Inspire You Not To Give Up

You mean single parents can be successful? Yes you can be a single mom and make millions whilst raising your little ones. When people hear that I am a singl

www.hudduma.com

You would only give her this one:

SNAP Eligibility | Food and Nutrition Service

www.fns.usda.gov

 

[Coyote]

Bullshit. What you call the exception is often not, that is just an excuse on your part. You rightists (typically) simplify complex problems into simple black and white issues. You are no different than then the pro-big government types with their one size fits all solutions, only for you, your one size is “character” if someone doesn’t succeed it is a character flaw and nothing else. In your mind, that comes down to most blacks are lazy and don’t want work or are thugs, that is your message for blacks.

You know “plenty” of women who left abusive relationships...I doubt that. Some do. Some manage new lives. Some lose their kids in the process. Some lose their lives in the process. restraining orders are often useless and laws against stalkers are weak. Some become single mothers on welfare trying to get ahead, but you think they should have stayed and worked out the bumps in the marriage.

The causes of poverty are many, and are different across the country and community by community. That is why one-size-fits-all programs dont work and why your lazy-bastard theory doesn’t either, because prior to a safety net, poverty was much more dire, far more extensive, and children starved to death. That is the world you consider an ideal?

And please...enough with the welfare queen stereotype.

Not succeeding isn't necessarily a character flaw but not trying is most definitely a character flaw.

Now that I agree with.

The question is what is success? People should create their own goals in life. If their life circumstances change, they should adjust their goals. Not accomplishing their goals means they set goals too high, a flaw, or they didn't try, a flaw. I have nothing against poverty. I know people who have chosen it and accepted it and lived within their means without asking others to pay for their decisions. Nothing at all wrong with that.

Good points, though sometimes a flaw is not a flaw, but part of the learning process. And I agree with you on these points.

Many people accept low wages in order to gain other advantages: low stress, more time with family, living where their relatives live, living in a small town, etc.

Absolutely agree, because that is the choice I made. Also, imo, work has value and dignity. There is no difference between the CEO of a bank and the person flipping burgers. All work is deserving of equal dignity, and all workers of respect regardless of what job they do.

But success is hard to measure. For example a “welfare mother” might never have been able to get off assistance, but she her time and energy into making sure her kids got an education, stayed out of trouble, and maybe even one became the first to get a higher education In the family or community. Was she successful?

But in terms of


Here's a guy who succeeded, at least up to the writing of his article, on living without money... Success. You're really quite narrow minded in your view of success.

Hawt Ish ▶ The Man That Lives Without Money

There is an awe that fills me as I read this article. I find this philosophy deep within my soul, yet I have such a hard time vocalizing the thoughts exactly. It’s as if the author has reache…

hawtish.wordpress.com

[/QUOTE]

 

[Coyote]

Poverty is driven by many different factors, sometimes having nothing to do with decisions one makes.

What do you mean by “my horror of restrictions”? We have not discussed restrictions, if you are psychic....you need to tune your receiver.

Name a cause of poverty - any cause that you think has nothing to do with the decisions one makes.

Catastrophic illness.
Lack of jobs in an area, for example when industries closed up and moved overseas, decimating the towns that relied on them — the so called rust belt, or in my state, the mines. Sure they can other jobs, but none pay near the jobs they lost.
Skyrocketing housing costs in areas where work is available.
Lack of education and fewer opportunities for good jobs without it.
Lack of transportation.

• Catastrophic illness is a problem but the Constitution provides for a right to bankruptcy. Even better, pay the bills but the law limits the collection of debt to 7 years. It is a sad situation that does have limited impact on wealth for a short time. It's a rare, but sad, exception so I'll give you that one.
• Lack of jobs in an area? When I got out of the Navy, I moved to Wyoming. After a few years of struggling with limited opportunity for my technical skills (I even spent a half-year working in a feed mill), I moved to Memphis to get a better job. From Memphis, I moved to Jackson, MS, for a better job. From there to LA, and from there to Ventura. I had a family to feed. I moved where I had to in order to improve my condition and that of my family. Ultimately, I ended up in Oklahoma and am on my third career even in Oklahoma. No jobs in your area? Load up your car and move.
• Skyrocketing housing costs? Bull crap. Live in a slum. Live within your means. Every city in the US has illegal immigrants making very low wages living in them. Suck it up and do what it takes until you can live in the nicer neighborhoods.
• Lack of education and fewer opportunities? You're seriously going to tell me, a high-school dropout, about opportunities without education? I've been extremely successful without an education. Not to imply that others should drop out because, even at the top where I am, I still face obstacles because I don't have an education. I find myself lacking in some of the soft skills, or having developed them far too late in life, compared to those who had an easy route through college. But that doesn't mean a person can't be very successful without a fancy diploma on the wall. I have many working for me now with Masters Degrees in various technical specialties. I don't have any at the moment but I've also had PhD's working for me.
• Lack of transportation: I live 15 miles out from the nearest town. Mostly I have had to drive to larger Oklahoma towns or cities to work but for a few years I worked in the local town. In those years, I used to see a guy walking to work every day, and walking home every night. I stopped and offered a ride one night but he turned me down. For all those years, he walked 15 miles to and from town for work. I left that job in 2004 and hadn't seen the guy since... until I got back hanging around town again now in the COVID lockdown and, low-and-behold, I see the very same guy walking along the highway every morning and night, walking to and from work. And if you can't walk, get a fucking bicycle.

In many cases, you are describing your personal situation as if it would or could apply to everyone, but it doesn’t.


1. Lack of jobs. Easy to move? Here are some factors...you have a house and a mortgage, in a place where you can’t possibly sell your house for close to what you paid (Detroit comes to mind)....maybe, to make it worse, there has been a huge water contamination problem with lead (Flint comes to mind) and who in their right mind will buy it? Where do you get the money to uproot your family, to a new city and pay for new housing?

Another consideration, when you had your job, you lived in your home in proximity to your extended family who could be relied upon for childcare while you worked or got training or education. You are moving to a new city for what is likely not a high paying job and you now have the added cost of childcare. If you are a single parent that can be catastrophic.

What if, like many now, you are responsible for aging parents? Are you going to move them as well?

What if the jobs you are offered are in areas where the cost of housing is way out of proportion to wages, and you can’t afford a car? Not everyone can walk 15 miles.

Always a what if. Always an excuse. The things you mention are not the cause of general poverty. There may be some who struggle with those things but those are exceptions.

I don't care about the cost of housing. Rent a refrigerator box. Don't let leftists like Coyote tell you that you can't get ahead.

Yes, move your parents, too, if necessary.

And if you own a house and have a mortgage then you're not that poor, are you? Sell the house. If you're upside down on your mortgage then that's already because of choices you made.

Walk away from the mortgage. If you live in Flint - you know, the place where the Democrat mayor and governor conspired to kill its citizens - and you haven't walked away from your mortgage you're a fucking idiot. The water is killing you. Get out. You'll have to rent for 7 to 10 years, depending on whether your lender pushes you into bankruptcy, until the credit is off your record. BFD.

YOu don't need childcare if mother stays home and takes care of the children. Oh sure, that means you'll have to settle for a 200K house when you get to that 100K salary instead of a 400K house but the option of staying in poverty is worse. Most women of poor families lose money by working. They pay more for childcare, second cars, clothes, buying McDonald's for dinner rather than cooking at home, than they make. The idea that women belong in the workforce or they don't have value is a lie and is the most demeaning thing to women to happen in the past 100 years. If a woman wants to work, fine. If she can afford to work - you know, buy the car, pay the babysitter, etc., then that's fine. But most low wage women are better off at home raising their children.

Oh, wait, you gasp out loud. What about single mothers. More personal decisions that made them poor: Marry a man you love and who loves you. Then have children. Don't quit your marriage because you're too fucking weak to work through tough times. Raise your children together. Father provides, mother nurtures. Or reverse it and mother works and father nurtures - just as soon as fathers can give birth and breastfeed.

Poverty in America is ALWAYS, with very, very, few exceptions, the result of personal choices.

Oh wow talk about elitist viewsright-wing divorced from reality. Why don't you explain to the mother of three, wanting to leave an abusive alcolic husband that she should just "work through hard times"...typical rightwinger.

People do that very sort of explaining all the time. Some of them are called "domestic abuse counselors". Perhaps you've heard of them.

What would YOU like to explain to her? That her situation is hopeless, and she should just learn to live with it, but here's a welfare check and some food stamps, good luck?

Of course they do.

What I wouldn’t tell her, is what the poster I was replying to would - I.e. just work through the bumps, learn to live with it, can’t have more single mothers getting welfare right?

You're a liar. I didn't say I would tell her to work through the bumps and learn to live with it.

What I would tell her is that she can survive it. I would help her identify career paths that would lead to her doing work she loved in ways that would provide for her and her children in the way she wanted, and was willing to work to do, to provide for her family.

You, on the other hand, would tell her that she's a victim and a woman. She can't make it by herself, ever. Get on welfare, get on WIC, SNAP, HUD, and we'll take care of you as long as you vote for us.

I would offer this site:

10 Entrepreneurial Single Mom Success Stories That Will Inspire You Not To Give Up

You mean single parents can be successful? Yes you can be a single mom and make millions whilst raising your little ones. When people hear that I am a singl

www.hudduma.com

You would only give her this one:

SNAP Eligibility | Food and Nutrition Service

www.fns.usda.gov

And here, you are a liar, because I would tell her the same thing you are. The only difference is, I would not shame if she needed some public assistance to get on her feet. There is nothing wrong with that. Using it does not mean she is a failure or a victim, it means she might need a little help.

 

[Levant]

And here, you are a liar, because I would tell her the same thing you are. The only difference is, I would not shame if she needed some public assistance to get on her feet. There is nothing wrong with that. Using it does not mean she is a failure or a victim, it means she might need a little help.

Did I say I'd shame her? I'd hope to teach her to get off of it as quickly as possible and to have the self-worth to never get in the position to go on welfare again. There's pride in standing on your own two feet. More pride in doing so during hard times. I'd try to teach dignity and a sense of self-worth.

 

[Nostra]

Poverty is driven by many different factors, sometimes having nothing to do with decisions one makes.

What do you mean by “my horror of restrictions”? We have not discussed restrictions, if you are psychic....you need to tune your receiver.

Name a cause of poverty - any cause that you think has nothing to do with the decisions one makes.

Catastrophic illness.
Lack of jobs in an area, for example when industries closed up and moved overseas, decimating the towns that relied on them — the so called rust belt, or in my state, the mines. Sure they can other jobs, but none pay near the jobs they lost.
Skyrocketing housing costs in areas where work is available.
Lack of education and fewer opportunities for good jobs without it.
Lack of transportation.

• Catastrophic illness is a problem but the Constitution provides for a right to bankruptcy. Even better, pay the bills but the law limits the collection of debt to 7 years. It is a sad situation that does have limited impact on wealth for a short time. It's a rare, but sad, exception so I'll give you that one.
• Lack of jobs in an area? When I got out of the Navy, I moved to Wyoming. After a few years of struggling with limited opportunity for my technical skills (I even spent a half-year working in a feed mill), I moved to Memphis to get a better job. From Memphis, I moved to Jackson, MS, for a better job. From there to LA, and from there to Ventura. I had a family to feed. I moved where I had to in order to improve my condition and that of my family. Ultimately, I ended up in Oklahoma and am on my third career even in Oklahoma. No jobs in your area? Load up your car and move.
• Skyrocketing housing costs? Bull crap. Live in a slum. Live within your means. Every city in the US has illegal immigrants making very low wages living in them. Suck it up and do what it takes until you can live in the nicer neighborhoods.
• Lack of education and fewer opportunities? You're seriously going to tell me, a high-school dropout, about opportunities without education? I've been extremely successful without an education. Not to imply that others should drop out because, even at the top where I am, I still face obstacles because I don't have an education. I find myself lacking in some of the soft skills, or having developed them far too late in life, compared to those who had an easy route through college. But that doesn't mean a person can't be very successful without a fancy diploma on the wall. I have many working for me now with Masters Degrees in various technical specialties. I don't have any at the moment but I've also had PhD's working for me.
• Lack of transportation: I live 15 miles out from the nearest town. Mostly I have had to drive to larger Oklahoma towns or cities to work but for a few years I worked in the local town. In those years, I used to see a guy walking to work every day, and walking home every night. I stopped and offered a ride one night but he turned me down. For all those years, he walked 15 miles to and from town for work. I left that job in 2004 and hadn't seen the guy since... until I got back hanging around town again now in the COVID lockdown and, low-and-behold, I see the very same guy walking along the highway every morning and night, walking to and from work. And if you can't walk, get a fucking bicycle.

In many cases, you are describing your personal situation as if it would or could apply to everyone, but it doesn’t.


1. Lack of jobs. Easy to move? Here are some factors...you have a house and a mortgage, in a place where you can’t possibly sell your house for close to what you paid (Detroit comes to mind)....maybe, to make it worse, there has been a huge water contamination problem with lead (Flint comes to mind) and who in their right mind will buy it? Where do you get the money to uproot your family, to a new city and pay for new housing?

Another consideration, when you had your job, you lived in your home in proximity to your extended family who could be relied upon for childcare while you worked or got training or education. You are moving to a new city for what is likely not a high paying job and you now have the added cost of childcare. If you are a single parent that can be catastrophic.

What if, like many now, you are responsible for aging parents? Are you going to move them as well?

What if the jobs you are offered are in areas where the cost of housing is way out of proportion to wages, and you can’t afford a car? Not everyone can walk 15 miles.

Always a what if. Always an excuse. The things you mention are not the cause of general poverty. There may be some who struggle with those things but those are exceptions.

I don't care about the cost of housing. Rent a refrigerator box. Don't let leftists like Coyote tell you that you can't get ahead.

Yes, move your parents, too, if necessary.

And if you own a house and have a mortgage then you're not that poor, are you? Sell the house. If you're upside down on your mortgage then that's already because of choices you made.

Walk away from the mortgage. If you live in Flint - you know, the place where the Democrat mayor and governor conspired to kill its citizens - and you haven't walked away from your mortgage you're a fucking idiot. The water is killing you. Get out. You'll have to rent for 7 to 10 years, depending on whether your lender pushes you into bankruptcy, until the credit is off your record. BFD.

YOu don't need childcare if mother stays home and takes care of the children. Oh sure, that means you'll have to settle for a 200K house when you get to that 100K salary instead of a 400K house but the option of staying in poverty is worse. Most women of poor families lose money by working. They pay more for childcare, second cars, clothes, buying McDonald's for dinner rather than cooking at home, than they make. The idea that women belong in the workforce or they don't have value is a lie and is the most demeaning thing to women to happen in the past 100 years. If a woman wants to work, fine. If she can afford to work - you know, buy the car, pay the babysitter, etc., then that's fine. But most low wage women are better off at home raising their children.

Oh, wait, you gasp out loud. What about single mothers. More personal decisions that made them poor: Marry a man you love and who loves you. Then have children. Don't quit your marriage because you're too fucking weak to work through tough times. Raise your children together. Father provides, mother nurtures. Or reverse it and mother works and father nurtures - just as soon as fathers can give birth and breastfeed.

Poverty in America is ALWAYS, with very, very, few exceptions, the result of personal choices.

Oh wow talk about elitist viewsright-wing divorced from reality. Why don't you explain to the mother of three, wanting to leave an abusive alcolic husband that she should just "work through hard times"...typical rightwinger.

People do that very sort of explaining all the time. Some of them are called "domestic abuse counselors". Perhaps you've heard of them.

What would YOU like to explain to her? That her situation is hopeless, and she should just learn to live with it, but here's a welfare check and some food stamps, good luck?

Of course they do.

What I wouldn’t tell her, is what the poster I was replying to would - I.e. just work through the bumps, learn to live with it, can’t have more single mothers getting welfare right?

You're a liar. I didn't say I would tell her to work through the bumps and learn to live with it.

What I would tell her is that she can survive it. I would help her identify career paths that would lead to her doing work she loved in ways that would provide for her and her children in the way she wanted, and was willing to work to do, to provide for her family.

You, on the other hand, would tell her that she's a victim and a woman. She can't make it by herself, ever. Get on welfare, get on WIC, SNAP, HUD, and we'll take care of you as long as you vote for us.

I would offer this site:

10 Entrepreneurial Single Mom Success Stories That Will Inspire You Not To Give Up

You mean single parents can be successful? Yes you can be a single mom and make millions whilst raising your little ones. When people hear that I am a singl

www.hudduma.com

You would only give her this one:

SNAP Eligibility | Food and Nutrition Service

www.fns.usda.gov

And here, you are a liar, because I would tell her the same thing you are. The only difference is, I would not shame if she needed some public assistance to get on her feet. There is nothing wrong with that. Using it does not mean she is a failure or a victim, it means she might need a little help.

Nazi Pelousy's solution to people down on their luck in her district is to have them live in a box on the sidewalk and shit in the streets.

 

[Coyote]

And here, you are a liar, because I would tell her the same thing you are. The only difference is, I would not shame if she needed some public assistance to get on her feet. There is nothing wrong with that. Using it does not mean she is a failure or a victim, it means she might need a little help.

Did I say I'd shame her? I'd hope to teach her to get off of it as quickly as possible and to have the self-worth to never get in the position to go on welfare again. There's pride in standing on your own two feet. More pride in doing so during hard times. I'd try to teach dignity and a sense of self-worth.

And is that not possible to do while also assisting them so they don’t fall quite so far?

 

[Levant]

And here, you are a liar, because I would tell her the same thing you are. The only difference is, I would not shame if she needed some public assistance to get on her feet. There is nothing wrong with that. Using it does not mean she is a failure or a victim, it means she might need a little help.

Did I say I'd shame her? I'd hope to teach her to get off of it as quickly as possible and to have the self-worth to never get in the position to go on welfare again. There's pride in standing on your own two feet. More pride in doing so during hard times. I'd try to teach dignity and a sense of self-worth.

And is that not possible to do while also assisting them so they don’t fall quite so far?

It's not my job or even your job to pay to support a woman down on her luck. But the local women's shelter is the one charity I do support and the one food bank that I support. I do it voluntarily, not at the point of a government gun. That's how charity begins - at home and in the heart, not at the point of a gun. Her family can help, church or other community programs can help. Constitutionally, even the state can help. The one entity that must not help, according to the Constitution, is the Federal Government.