Where FDR Went Wrong

[NYcarbineer]

If you had ever bothered to look at the map of Europe, you would know that what you call Eastern Europe is nowhere near in the eastern part of Europe.

After the Battle of Stalingrad the Soviets were just as exhausted as the Germans. Churchill had the brains to see that they would have been easy picking but of course FDR ordered the Allies to stop at the river Elba, thereby missing a chance to get rid of Communism and his blind admiration for Uncle Joe and Communism unleashed nearly fifty years of terror in Europe.

Thanks for calling me an idiot. Coming from low-information typical liberal demagogue like you, I consider that as compliment.

If you show us there was enough support in Congress for a declaration of war in 1945, against the Soviets,

then you wouldn't be an idiot.

But you can't, therefore you are.

FDR ordered the Allies to stop at the Elba, while the Germans and Soviets were still killing each other east of Poland.

If the part of Europe, that you refer to as Eastern had been occupied by the Allies, there would have been no Iron Curtain, no millions perishing in Stalin's gulag, no fifty years of Cold War, no rise of China, and the well-deserved end of the Soviet Union would have happened about forty years earlier.

When your military is on a victorious march, the population - and Congress - support it. Since FDR loved Stalin so much, we never had the chance to find out just how much America - and Congress - would have supported the effort to stop the regime compared to which Hitler's Third Reich looks like a bunch of altar boys.

I respect your opinion, even though I don't agree with it, but I never sink to your level of calling you and idiot - as you called me several times - just because we disagree. After all I am not a liberal.

Other than the madman Patton, where was the support in 1945 for going to war with the Russians?

 

[Jarlaxle]

2. In a way, this is the problem with FDR's role in American history. Just like the blonde, he had a number of attractive features....but one glaring problem: a misunderstanding of geopolitical reality.
'It's always somethin.'"

a. That 'somethin' resulted in the United States becoming, for all intents and purposes, a vassal of the Soviet Union. It caused the Korean War. It is the reason that China became Maoist, with 75 million deaths. And if the United States ever goes to war with China....the 'somethin' will have been the provenance.

...and are willing to ignore 'somethin'......

The whole problem with your PRemise here is that you overinflate the importance of the US in the ultimate victory against the Axis.

Not at all. US industrial might won the war. This was said by no less than General Zhukov.

The USSR did most of the "Heavy Lifting", as Cheney liked to use to say.

By contrast- The USSR lost 20 million people defeating Hitler. The US Lost 450,000. There was a death struggle, to be sure, between Communism and Fascism, but Capitalist Democracy was just holding the coats.

And keeping the Red Army operating!

At the end of the war, the USSR and US were the last men standing. The United Kingdom was on the winning side, but with the promise to the people who had fought to save it that the British Empire would end. (Again, comarisons, only 500K British died fighting the war, but over 2 million Indians and Pakistanis, on the promise of Indian independence.) France was shattered.

Let us take your example of the Korean War. Contrary to popular belief, Atom Bombs had little to do with Japan's surrender. What forced the Japanese to surrender was the USSR finally entered the Pacific War and rolled up their Kwantung Army in Manchuria in two weeks. (Again, all those weapons eventually ended up in Mao's hand. Stalin already had plenty.) the only reason Stalin didn't take the whole of Korea was because he didn't want a dustup with the US. NOthing was really going to stop him if he wanted to in 1945.

Nothing but a couple more A-bombs...1000-plane bombing raids crioppling their oil production (the fields in the Caucusus were easily in range of bombers based in Persia, or even Greece), and the fact that even the Soviets didn't have unlimited manpower. By 1945, they were pretty much tapped out.

Now, besides the usual hystrical , "Communists killed a Gazillion people" nonsense. (Nope, sorry, not that many, and PEOPLE killed people, usually over reasons that had little to do with politics.)

The fact is, China was not ours to lose. Mao won because the Chinese people wanted him to win. It's why they still revere Mao even after they've concluded Communism isn't such a hot idea. Vietnam was not ours to lose. Those people got fed up with colonial domination, and that was it.

I do find the amusing notion of being a "Vassal" of the USSR funny. I had a talk with a British person once who felt the nation that really took advantage of WWII was the US. They charged the other allies exhorbitant amounts for war materials during the war and consumer goods after the war, and moved into the vacuum left as the Colonial Empires fell.

Had the US wanted to turn most of Europe (and all of Japan, not to mention southern Korea, Formosa, etc.) into colonies, they could have.

 

[Unkotare]

Then why did you bring up Ralph Carr?

To draw your attention to the contrast between villainous (though typical) actions of your beloved democrat would-be dictator and the strongest national voice representing American values in opposition to the bastard FDR's inexcusable act in maintaining his own concentration camps at the same time that we were fighting against just that sort of tyranny and oppression around the world. Typical that democrats were ultimately responsible for the oppression, death, abrogation of rights, and usurpation of private property of minorities - AGAIN, and that it took a Republican voice to give the clearest, most unambiguous iteration of true American principles no matter how many forgot or disregarded them in the fear and hysteria of wartime.

A Republican who was liberal on this issue.

NO, he was the epitome of conservative on this issue.

You can't escape the truth about the democrat party by playing (poorly) semantic games. Your inability to face up to what the democrat party has always been is just another aspect of liberalism: avoidance of responsibility.

 

[Unkotare]

1942, west coast REPUBLICANS calling for the removal/internment of Japanese Americans:

REPUBLICAN Congressman Leland Ford

REPUBLICAN Fletcher Bowron, Mayor of Los Angeles

REPUBLICAN Earl Warren, CA Atty General

Guess who signs executive orders? I'll give you a hint, it's the chief executive.

So one individual is solely responsible? Why then are you trying to broadbrush every Democrat who ever existed with culpability for this?

Guess where the buck stops, champ? And weren't you just oh-so-proud of how many democrats supported your false god FDR?

 

[Unkotare]

Why did most Republicans vote against reparations for the internment victims in 1988?

Are you nuts?

I have addressed the above misinformation already.

In your desperation to avoid the responsibility that rests with the democrat party and their standard-bearer, you are being deliberately dishonest.

 

[JoeB131]

The whole problem with your PRemise here is that you overinflate the importance of the US in the ultimate victory against the Axis.

The USSR did most of the "Heavy Lifting", as Cheney liked to use to say.

By contrast- The USSR lost 20 million people defeating Hitler. The US Lost 450,000. There was a death struggle, to be sure, between Communism and Fascism, but Capitalist Democracy was just holding the coats.

Another ignorant dimwit with no understanding of history or ability to reason is heard from. Just what we've come to expect from joe nobody.

I got a degree in history.

Of course, it came from one of those "Socalist" universities where they don't teach about Talking Snakes.

Read about the Battle of Kursk some time. It involved more troops on both sides than were deployed on the ENTIRE western front....

 

[FJO]

If you show us there was enough support in Congress for a declaration of war in 1945, against the Soviets,

then you wouldn't be an idiot.

But you can't, therefore you are.

FDR ordered the Allies to stop at the Elba, while the Germans and Soviets were still killing each other east of Poland.

If the part of Europe, that you refer to as Eastern had been occupied by the Allies, there would have been no Iron Curtain, no millions perishing in Stalin's gulag, no fifty years of Cold War, no rise of China, and the well-deserved end of the Soviet Union would have happened about forty years earlier.

When your military is on a victorious march, the population - and Congress - support it. Since FDR loved Stalin so much, we never had the chance to find out just how much America - and Congress - would have supported the effort to stop the regime compared to which Hitler's Third Reich looks like a bunch of altar boys.

I respect your opinion, even though I don't agree with it, but I never sink to your level of calling you and idiot - as you called me several times - just because we disagree. After all I am not a liberal.

Other than the madman Patton, where was the support in 1945 for going to war with the Russians?

Going past the Elba would NOT have been "going to war with the Russians". It would have been the logical extension of the successful landing in Normandy, and it would have been supported by Congress and the American people.

The so-called 'madman' Patton and Winston Churchill saw the future danger of Communism, realized the destructive power of Stalin, while FDR only had love for that butcher of millions of people, to such extent that makes one wonder if FDR may have been gay, a view that does not seem to be impossible, looking at Eleanore.

 

[JoeB131]

2. In a way, this is the problem with FDR's role in American history. Just like the blonde, he had a number of attractive features....but one glaring problem: a misunderstanding of geopolitical reality.
'It's always somethin.'"

a. That 'somethin' resulted in the United States becoming, for all intents and purposes, a vassal of the Soviet Union. It caused the Korean War. It is the reason that China became Maoist, with 75 million deaths. And if the United States ever goes to war with China....the 'somethin' will have been the provenance.

...and are willing to ignore 'somethin'......

The whole problem with your PRemise here is that you overinflate the importance of the US in the ultimate victory against the Axis.

The USSR did most of the "Heavy Lifting", as Cheney liked to use to say.

By contrast- The USSR lost 20 million people defeating Hitler. The US Lost 450,000. There was a death struggle, to be sure, between Communism and Fascism, but Capitalist Democracy was just holding the coats.

.

Just holding the coats? We were fighting in the Pacific and in Europe. Just how big a lowlife scumbag do you have to be in order to join Progressives because your remark was despicable

Yes we were.

And most of the real fighting in Asia was being done by China (which lost 30 million people) and most of the fighting in Europe was done by the USSR (which lost 20 million).

The problem with Americans is that we tend to think the whole world revovles around us. It really, really doesn't.

 

[JoeB131]

[

If you had ever bothered to look at the map of Europe, you would know that what you call Eastern Europe is nowhere near in the eastern part of Europe.

After the Battle of Stalingrad the Soviets were just as exhausted as the Germans. Churchill had the brains to see that they would have been easy picking but of course FDR ordered the Allies to stop at the river Elba, thereby missing a chance to get rid of Communism and his blind admiration for Uncle Joe and Communism unleashed nearly fifty years of terror in Europe.

Thanks for calling me an idiot. Coming from low-information typical liberal demagogue like you, I consider that as compliment.

Stalingrad happened in 1942- feb 1943. The Soviets continued to fight and drive the Axis powers back out of their territory for another two years while the Allies wer bogged down in France and Italy. And hardly "easy pickings", the Soviets had a battle-hardened war machine that probably COULD have swept all the way to the Atlantic, if that's what they wanted to do.

Instead, they took their pretty awesome war machine, turned it to the East, and drove the Japanese out of Mongolia, Manchuria and Korea. After which the Japanese surrendered. (Sorry, had very litte to do with low kiloton bombs.)

Now, you do have one thing right. Churchill was just crazy enough to try to take on Russia, which is why his OWN PEOPLE voted him out of office while talks were going on at Postdam. They weren't even going to give him a chance to fuck it up worse.

 

[JoeB131]

[

"The whole problem with your PRemise here is that you overinflate the importance of the US in the ultimate victory against the Axis."


Wow are you wrong.


But....you've given me the inspiration to post about military historian Hanson Baldwin.....

Give me a day or two.....your education will continue apace.

If you REALLY want to waste your time posting quotes from yet ANOTHER quack historian who taeaches at Talking Snake U., knock yourself out.

Fact is, the USSR won World War II. Hence the massive pant-shitting that went on in the west after VJ day.

 

[Unkotare]

I got a degree in history. ....

Go ask for your money back. If Stalin hadn't been such a paranoid freak he wouldn't have gutted his officer corp. and might have had commanders on the ground with better strategic approaches than 'shoot at the backs of unarmed, barely-trained boys unless they run toward the Nazi lines so we can see if they run out of bullets before we run out of expendables' to go with. An enormous number of Russians fought with incredible courage, but "heavy lifting" means more than how many of one's own side get dead.

 

[Unkotare]

And most of the real fighting in Asia was being done by China .

NO, most of the real 'losing' in Asia was being done by China. Both the Nationalists and (even more so) the Communists had at least an eye and a half on the civil war they knew would resume if they managed to get out of the war with any autonomous territory left to fight over.


Seriously, go ask for your money back.

 

[JoeB131]

Nothing but a couple more A-bombs...1000-plane bombing raids crioppling their oil production (the fields in the Caucusus were easily in range of bombers based in Persia, or even Greece), and the fact that even the Soviets didn't have unlimited manpower. By 1945, they were pretty much tapped out.

No, guy, they weren't "Tapped out". This was the thing you don't get. the key goal in the Potsdam conference (after FDR was dead) was to get the Soviets to entere the Pacific war.

In fact, they were able to deploy 1.6 million men and 6000 tanks on the first wave. they killed 80,000 Japanese and took another 600,000 prisoner.

Had the US wanted to turn most of Europe (and all of Japan, not to mention southern Korea, Formosa, etc.) into colonies, they could have.

No, we couldn't have. Shit, we couldn't even hold on to the Philppines, we had to hand those back to her people. By 1945, the American people were tired of the war. (Kind of like they are tired of the War on a Noun now.)

 

[JoeB131]

I got a degree in history. ....

Go ask for your money back. If Stalin hadn't been such a paranoid freak he wouldn't have gutted his officer corp. and might have had commanders on the ground with better strategic approaches than 'shoot at the backs of unarmed, barely-trained boys unless they run toward the Nazi lines so we can see if they run out of bullets before we run out of expendables' to go with. An enormous number of Russians fought with incredible courage, but "heavy lifting" means more than how many of one's own side get dead.

It does when you are conquering most of the occuppied territory and inflicting most of the causualties, which is exactly what the Red Army did.

Of course, you'd know this if you had even spent one day of your life in the military...

 

[hazlnut]

Print this out, put it on your mirror.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Print this out, put it on your mirror.

 

[FJO]

Print this out, put it on your mirror.

A government that is powerful enough to give you everything you want is powerful enough to take from you everything you have.

That was the gist of what Gerald Ford said.

http://www.monticello.org/site/jeff...ough-to-give-you-everything-you-wantquotation

 

[regent]

Guess who signs executive orders? I'll give you a hint, it's the chief executive.

So one individual is solely responsible? Why then are you trying to broadbrush every Democrat who ever existed with culpability for this?

Guess where the buck stops, champ? And weren't you just oh-so-proud of how many democrats supported your false god FDR?

Many people are unable to understand that with the enormity of the war many things were mishandled and relegated to the history books as errors, and so it was with the relocation centers. I wonder if most Americans even knew much about the centers or even cared at the time. Bigger things were taking place. We bring up the event today because it is a chance to attack FDR, but there are thousands of events that FDR could be held responsible for but at the time they made sense. The relocation centers was FDR's responsibility just as DDay was, and FDR s listened to General DeWitt, as he listened to Ike, and so we had relocation centers and DDay. Both could have been mistakes but DDay was considered a success. If DDay had been a failure it would have been another area to attack FDR,

 

[The T]

Print this out, put it on your mirror.

Unbenounced to the leftist followers? Guess what Obama and the Democrats wish, and have been working on for 100 years?

DEAD ON Frank.

 

[Unkotare]

Many people are unable to understand that with the enormity of the war many things were mishandled and relegated to the history books as errors, and so it was with the relocation centers. I wonder if most Americans even knew much about the centers or even cared at the time. Bigger things were taking place. We bring up the event today because it is a chance to attack FDR

I bring up the FACT today because FDR's CONCENTRATION CAMPS are a FACT of history and entirely exemplary of his own villainy and the democrat party's history of killing, oppressing, robbing, and addicting minorities. No excuses, misdirection, or any form of 'yeahbut' can change that.