White college fraternity in Oklahoma shut down for overt racism

[Michelle420]

http://www.ou.edu/content/studentlife/get_involved/student_organizations/register/jcr:content/contentpar/download/file.res/Model Constitution 2012.pdf

http://www.saerecord.net/files/docs/FraternityLaws.pdf

Again, I am not sure about being expelled from school. But being kicked out of the fraternity is most certainly the legal right of the fraternity.

For you to not acknowledge that much is pretty telling about you.

No one has said the frat doesnt have that right. I specifically said they did. What part of that have you missed?

The same you have missed in that 3 times now I have posted I am not sure about the expelling but they were rightly kicked out of the fraternity for misrepresentation.

 

[manifold]

I didn't see that. Was the guy charged with a crime for participating in shutting down Rt. 93? If so, then he was probably fired for criminal action and not because he was protesting.

The official reason given was for "putting lives at risk", but if that were true, why not prosecute?

 

[The Rabbi]

But they signed a membership agreement to the rules of conduct. They didn't have to join the fraternity, but once they agreed to present themselves as members and the code of conduct they volunteered to the terms.

But the fraternity is a private organization. SAE national as a private organization has every right to pull their charter. OU is a public institution. The rules are different. We'll see how it all works out, but I think there is an argument to be made that by expelling these assholes, OU may have violated their first amendment rights. We'll see. I am sure the courts will sort it out.

Now as stupid as I find their actions, I have to say that I hope we don't go further down the path of restricting speech. It's a dangerous, slippery slope, man

agree with all you've said.
Were they dumb? Yes. Was what they said stupid? Yes. But criminalizing dumb and stupid is a very dangerous precedent. How soon until a private party where someone criticizes Obama leads to fines et?

And that's exactly the problem. When you go through that door you are redefining lines. They can get redefined and redefined until it becomes criminal to speak against the government or just about anything. These kids are assholes, but the public can sort it out themselves. OU and SAE national probably didn't have to shut down the SAEs to make them go away. They would have been branded as a racist house and their recruiting would have probably suffered to the point where they could not maintain and would have died out by themselves.

Or the national could have kicked the kids responsible out of the fraternity, the univeristy could have given them a strong tongue lashing and been done. Instead they just blamed the whole frat.
Really the dean should have put them on "double secret probation."

The Fraternity kicked them out, they don't want to be represented that way, the kids violated their membership agreement.

OK. So what?

 

[Michelle420]

http://www.ou.edu/content/studentlife/get_involved/student_organizations/register/jcr:content/contentpar/download/file.res/Model Constitution 2012.pdf

http://www.saerecord.net/files/docs/FraternityLaws.pdf

Again, I am not sure about being expelled from school. But being kicked out of the fraternity is most certainly the legal right of the fraternity.

For you to not acknowledge that much is pretty telling about you.

No one has said the frat doesnt have that right. I specifically said they did. What part of that have you missed?

You kept going on and on about "free speech" and I replied to you they agreed to the terms of their membership contract to the fraternity.

 

[Michelle420]

But the fraternity is a private organization. SAE national as a private organization has every right to pull their charter. OU is a public institution. The rules are different. We'll see how it all works out, but I think there is an argument to be made that by expelling these assholes, OU may have violated their first amendment rights. We'll see. I am sure the courts will sort it out.

Now as stupid as I find their actions, I have to say that I hope we don't go further down the path of restricting speech. It's a dangerous, slippery slope, man

agree with all you've said.
Were they dumb? Yes. Was what they said stupid? Yes. But criminalizing dumb and stupid is a very dangerous precedent. How soon until a private party where someone criticizes Obama leads to fines et?

And that's exactly the problem. When you go through that door you are redefining lines. They can get redefined and redefined until it becomes criminal to speak against the government or just about anything. These kids are assholes, but the public can sort it out themselves. OU and SAE national probably didn't have to shut down the SAEs to make them go away. They would have been branded as a racist house and their recruiting would have probably suffered to the point where they could not maintain and would have died out by themselves.

Or the national could have kicked the kids responsible out of the fraternity, the univeristy could have given them a strong tongue lashing and been done. Instead they just blamed the whole frat.
Really the dean should have put them on "double secret probation."

The Fraternity kicked them out, they don't want to be represented that way, the kids violated their membership agreement.

OK. So what?

So from there we will see how the law plays out. I am glad they no longer can falsely represent an organization with their racial hate.

 

[Asclepias]

http://www.ou.edu/content/studentlife/get_involved/student_organizations/register/jcr:content/contentpar/download/file.res/Model Constitution 2012.pdf

http://www.saerecord.net/files/docs/FraternityLaws.pdf

Again, I am not sure about being expelled from school. But being kicked out of the fraternity is most certainly the legal right of the fraternity.

For you to not acknowledge that much is pretty telling about you.

No one has said the frat doesnt have that right. I specifically said they did. What part of that have you missed?

The same you have missed in that 3 times now I have posted I am not sure about the expelling but they were rightly kicked out of the fraternity for misrepresentation.

Rabbi is in his death throes. He is looking for a way to exit

 

[The Rabbi]

http://www.ou.edu/content/studentlife/get_involved/student_organizations/register/jcr:content/contentpar/download/file.res/Model Constitution 2012.pdf

http://www.saerecord.net/files/docs/FraternityLaws.pdf

Again, I am not sure about being expelled from school. But being kicked out of the fraternity is most certainly the legal right of the fraternity.

For you to not acknowledge that much is pretty telling about you.

No one has said the frat doesnt have that right. I specifically said they did. What part of that have you missed?

You kept going on and on about "free speech" and I replied to you they agreed to the terms of their membership contract to the fraternity.

The two are irrelevant to each other. The fraternity is a private org. They can set whatever standards they want. The university is not. They are a public institution. Which part of that is unclear to you?

 

[Michelle420]

http://www.ou.edu/content/studentlife/get_involved/student_organizations/register/jcr:content/contentpar/download/file.res/Model Constitution 2012.pdf

http://www.saerecord.net/files/docs/FraternityLaws.pdf

Again, I am not sure about being expelled from school. But being kicked out of the fraternity is most certainly the legal right of the fraternity.

For you to not acknowledge that much is pretty telling about you.

No one has said the frat doesnt have that right. I specifically said they did. What part of that have you missed?

You kept going on and on about "free speech" and I replied to you they agreed to the terms of their membership contract to the fraternity.

The two are irrelevant to each other. The fraternity is a private org. They can set whatever standards they want. The university is not. They are a public institution. Which part of that is unclear to you?

None , you are the one who doesn't like to read the links. Shrug.

So all you want to do is say over and over again they shouldn't be expelled?

Knock yourself out

 

[The Rabbi]

http://www.ou.edu/content/studentlife/get_involved/student_organizations/register/jcr:content/contentpar/download/file.res/Model Constitution 2012.pdf

http://www.saerecord.net/files/docs/FraternityLaws.pdf

Again, I am not sure about being expelled from school. But being kicked out of the fraternity is most certainly the legal right of the fraternity.

For you to not acknowledge that much is pretty telling about you.

No one has said the frat doesnt have that right. I specifically said they did. What part of that have you missed?

You kept going on and on about "free speech" and I replied to you they agreed to the terms of their membership contract to the fraternity.

The two are irrelevant to each other. The fraternity is a private org. They can set whatever standards they want. The university is not. They are a public institution. Which part of that is unclear to you?

None , you are the one who doesn't like to read the links. Shrug.

So all you want to do is say over and over again they shouldn't be expelled?

Knock yourself out

You understand expelling someone from the fraternity is not the same as expelling them from the univeristy, right?

 

[Shotgun_Sammy]

I can't believe you all would expend this much energy on such a stupid topic.

 

[rightwinger]

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

Last time I checked, universities get to decide who they let attend and who they don't.

I dont think so. Let them try to bar black students and see what happens.

I have no doubt that many many black people are denied admission to various colleges and universities everyday.

You seem hellbent on trying to make some sort of academic point. And failing that miserably, the only point you're getting across is that you're at best a butthurt racist sympathizer and at worst a racist shitbag yourself.

Many white people are denied admission too. But not because they're white. Same as black people. Its not because they're black.
Another shit attempt at red herring fallacy. You're not very good at this, are you?
I am hellbent on making the point that kicking people out for expressing views they thought were private is contrary to freedom of expression. I realize that bothers a shitbag statist **** like you but there you have it.

They were speaking of views of that fraternity with everyone on the bus singing along. It was not a private discussion, it was a fraternity function.

Both the school and fraternity are justified in kicking them out

 

[Michelle420]

http://www.ou.edu/content/studentlife/get_involved/student_organizations/register/jcr:content/contentpar/download/file.res/Model Constitution 2012.pdf

http://www.saerecord.net/files/docs/FraternityLaws.pdf

Again, I am not sure about being expelled from school. But being kicked out of the fraternity is most certainly the legal right of the fraternity.

For you to not acknowledge that much is pretty telling about you.

No one has said the frat doesnt have that right. I specifically said they did. What part of that have you missed?

You kept going on and on about "free speech" and I replied to you they agreed to the terms of their membership contract to the fraternity.

The two are irrelevant to each other. The fraternity is a private org. They can set whatever standards they want. The university is not. They are a public institution. Which part of that is unclear to you?

None , you are the one who doesn't like to read the links. Shrug.

So all you want to do is say over and over again they shouldn't be expelled?

Knock yourself out

You understand expelling someone from the fraternity is not the same as expelling them from the univeristy, right?

Obviously, and I understand that if you represent an organization and publicly declare the organization discriminates and believes in hanging black people from a tree, a black student attending the university where frat attends might feel threatened by that. Speech codes has been successful in Employment situations and legally enforced, admittedly Universities have not had such an outcome.

Anyway I've said and linked what I had to say and you are just repeating yourself we are at an impasse.

 

[The Rabbi]

I can't believe you all would expend this much energy on such a stupid topic.

Yeah, free speech rights is real stupid.
dolt.

 

[The Rabbi]

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

Last time I checked, universities get to decide who they let attend and who they don't.

I dont think so. Let them try to bar black students and see what happens.

I have no doubt that many many black people are denied admission to various colleges and universities everyday.

You seem hellbent on trying to make some sort of academic point. And failing that miserably, the only point you're getting across is that you're at best a butthurt racist sympathizer and at worst a racist shitbag yourself.

Many white people are denied admission too. But not because they're white. Same as black people. Its not because they're black.
Another shit attempt at red herring fallacy. You're not very good at this, are you?
I am hellbent on making the point that kicking people out for expressing views they thought were private is contrary to freedom of expression. I realize that bothers a shitbag statist **** like you but there you have it.

They were speaking of views of that fraternity with everyone on the bus singing along. It was not a private discussion, it was a fraternity function.

Both the school and fraternity are justified in kicking them out

They werent speaking of anything. Didnt you watch the video? And since when is a fraternity function not private? Is a party at your house private?

 

[The Rabbi]

No one has said the frat doesnt have that right. I specifically said they did. What part of that have you missed?

You kept going on and on about "free speech" and I replied to you they agreed to the terms of their membership contract to the fraternity.

The two are irrelevant to each other. The fraternity is a private org. They can set whatever standards they want. The university is not. They are a public institution. Which part of that is unclear to you?

None , you are the one who doesn't like to read the links. Shrug.

So all you want to do is say over and over again they shouldn't be expelled?

Knock yourself out

You understand expelling someone from the fraternity is not the same as expelling them from the univeristy, right?

Obviously, and I understand that if you represent an organization and publicly declare the organization discriminates and believes in hanging black people from a tree, a black student attending the university where frat attends might feel threatened by that. Speech codes has been successful in Employment situations and legally enforced, admittedly Universities have not had such an outcome.

Anyway I've said and linked what I had to say and you are just repeating yourself we are at an impasse.

I feel threatened by your comments. Expect the police any minute.

 

[manifold]

I can't believe you all would expend this much energy on such a stupid topic.

I suppose, but watching The Ribeye fail so dramatically and repeatedly has become somewhat of a guilty pleasure for me.

Sue me.

 

[rightwinger]

Ok you want to argue semantics, laws, regulations whatever.........
Until they are applied equally they are still just a joke no matter what you call them.

What law/regulation/whatever is not being applied equally?

1A of the Constituioin

When you are hired for a Job, you agree to terms of your employment, so you may not use racial or sexual speech.

Same applies to fraternities when you sign their contract to be a member.

If you want free speech don't agree to terms of employment or fraternity etc etc......

The two arent remotely comparable. And no job requires you to give up rights to free speech away from the job place.

Every job would fire you for the same activity

 

[Dot Com]

The Rabbi melting down over his defense of racist idiots. 'twas ever thus w/ that shit stain

 

[rightwinger]

Government guarantees you free speech
Unless you say something they dont like at a government school, you are expelled. no double think there at all.

The government can't pass a law or prosecute you for your speech

You can get expelled from a government school for what you say just the same as a private school

So the first amendment only applies in public settings when you say things the government likes. Got it.

The first amendment applies to government prosecution....it does not mean there can be no consequences for your speech

OU is a government institution

Yes they are

 

[BluePhantom]

The Rabbi melting down over his defense of racist idiots. 'twas ever thus w/ that shit stain

I don't think he is defending them so much as he is defending their right to be assholes