White college fraternity in Oklahoma shut down for overt racism

[BluePhantom]

That is not what he said. A couple students have been expelled now. Personally, I think those students may have a legal claim against OU for it as it is a public institution. We'll see what happens but I would not be at all surprised to see this end up in court.

On what grounds would the students have any legal claim whatsoever?

Violation of their right to free speech. I am not a constitutional scholar so I don't know, but it seems to me that an institution that is backed by the state is a public institution and therefore must respect the constitutional right to free speech. Here are a couple articles by or citing those who agree.

No a public university may not expel students for racist speech UPDATED in light of the students expulsion - The Washington Post

The Oklahoma Frat Song Was Racist But Was Still Free Speech The Daily Caller

Interesting, but I'm not sure that argument ultimately holds water in court. There is ample SCOTUS precedent giving public schools the authority to limit speech they believe is ultimately disruptive. Even when that speech occurs off grounds and outside of school hours.

That may be true. We'll see. I imagine if there is a legal claim to be made it will be.

 

[Michelle420]

Ok you want to argue semantics, laws, regulations whatever.........
Until they are applied equally they are still just a joke no matter what you call them.

What law/regulation/whatever is not being applied equally?

1A of the Constituioin

When you are hired for a Job, you agree to terms of your employment, so you may not use racial or sexual speech.

Same applies to fraternities when you sign their contract to be a member.

If you want free speech don't agree to terms of employment or fraternity etc etc......

 

[The Rabbi]

Ok you want to argue semantics, laws, regulations whatever.........
Until they are applied equally they are still just a joke no matter what you call them.

What law/regulation/whatever is not being applied equally?

1A of the Constituioin

When you are hired for a Job, you agree to terms of your employment, so you may not use racial or sexual speech.

Same applies to fraternities when you sign their contract to be a member.

If you want free speech don't agree to terms of employment or fraternity etc etc......

The two arent remotely comparable. And no job requires you to give up rights to free speech away from the job place.

 

[manifold]

You tell me.... a "church" preaches a racist message and it is ok
a fraternity sings a racist song and the world is on fire. Seems that something is not being applied equally, maybe it is the media coverage.,

Ahhh I get it.

You're conflating society's response at large with the government's application of laws.

No offense, but that's kindergarten stupid.

Go take a civics class... or continue to make an ass of yourself. You have the freedom to choose.

 

[Michelle420]

Register a Student Organization

http://www.ou.edu/content/studentlife/get_involved/student_organizations/register/jcr:content/contentpar/download/file.res/Model Constitution 2012.pdf

I dont believe that covers frats.

The Frat publicly stated on their website the students ideals do not represent the frats values. Those students made specific claims about their frats membership and excluding people, then added ideology about lynching people.

The fraternity does not want to be represented that way, and it does break the University's constitution on organizations being discriminatary.

There is also a code of coduct those students have to agree to with that fraternity they are representing which they also broke.

The fraternity is a privte org. They can do what they want with members.

They did, they kicked them out for misrepresenting them.

So those kids made false statements publicly about the fraternity they belonged to.

No the kids made no false statements. That's garbage.

You mean their fraternity would lynch black people? Is that True? I read the Fraternities rules and membership contract I didn't see it there anywhere, in fact they are not supposed to be discriminatory.

 

[Michelle420]

Ok you want to argue semantics, laws, regulations whatever.........
Until they are applied equally they are still just a joke no matter what you call them.

What law/regulation/whatever is not being applied equally?

1A of the Constituioin

When you are hired for a Job, you agree to terms of your employment, so you may not use racial or sexual speech.

Same applies to fraternities when you sign their contract to be a member.

If you want free speech don't agree to terms of employment or fraternity etc etc......

The two arent remotely comparable. And no job requires you to give up rights to free speech away from the job place.

If you are in Job uniform or if you are shouting on a public space that your company won't hire black people only you say it in racial slurs and state your company lynches black people, you would be fired and possibly sued for misrepresenting and defaming a companies reputation.

 

[Asclepias]

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

Last time I checked, universities get to decide who they let attend and who they don't.

I dont think so. Let them try to bar black students and see what happens.

I have no doubt that many many black people are denied admission to various colleges and universities everyday.

You seem hellbent on trying to make some sort of academic point. And failing that miserably, the only point you're getting across is that you're at best a butthurt racist sympathizer and at worst a racist shitbag yourself.

Many white people are denied admission too. But not because they're white. Same as black people. Its not because they're black.
Another shit attempt at red herring fallacy. You're not very good at this, are you?
I am hellbent on making the point that kicking people out for expressing views they thought were private is contrary to freedom of expression. I realize that bothers a shitbag statist **** like you but there you have it.

Your hellbent mission failed. That in no way hampers their ability to take advantage of free speech. They can say what they want. Free speech does not = free of consequences. When will you idiots get that through your heads?

 

[BluePhantom]

Ok you want to argue semantics, laws, regulations whatever.........
Until they are applied equally they are still just a joke no matter what you call them.

What law/regulation/whatever is not being applied equally?

1A of the Constituioin

When you are hired for a Job, you agree to terms of your employment, so you may not use racial or sexual speech.

Same applies to fraternities when you sign their contract to be a member.

If you want free speech don't agree to terms of employment or fraternity etc etc......

Again...you are equating private institutions with public institutions. A state university is a public institution. The rules are very different as a result

 

[manifold]

And no job requires you to give up rights to free speech away from the job place.

There are countless examples reported in the news of people getting fired for shit they post on twitter or facebook.

Jesus Christ man, pull your head out of your ass already.

 

[BluePhantom]

Ok you want to argue semantics, laws, regulations whatever.........
Until they are applied equally they are still just a joke no matter what you call them.

What law/regulation/whatever is not being applied equally?

1A of the Constituioin

When you are hired for a Job, you agree to terms of your employment, so you may not use racial or sexual speech.

Same applies to fraternities when you sign their contract to be a member.

If you want free speech don't agree to terms of employment or fraternity etc etc......

The two arent remotely comparable. And no job requires you to give up rights to free speech away from the job place.

If you are in Job uniform or if you are shouting on a public space that your company won't hire black and state instead your company lynches black people, you would be fired and possibly sued for misrepresenting and defaming a companies reputation.

True...but again a job is a private institution

 

[The Rabbi]

I dont believe that covers frats.

The Frat publicly stated on their website the students ideals do not represent the frats values. Those students made specific claims about their frats membership and excluding people, then added ideology about lynching people.

The fraternity does not want to be represented that way, and it does break the University's constitution on organizations being discriminatary.

There is also a code of coduct those students have to agree to with that fraternity they are representing which they also broke.

The fraternity is a privte org. They can do what they want with members.

They did, they kicked them out for misrepresenting them.

So those kids made false statements publicly about the fraternity they belonged to.

No the kids made no false statements. That's garbage.

You mean their fraternity would lynch black people? Is that True? I read the Fraternities rules and membership contract I didn't see it there anywhere, in fact they are not supposed to be discriminatory.

I dont see where the guys said they wanted to lynch black people.

 

[The Rabbi]

And no job requires you to give up rights to free speech away from the job place.

There are countless examples reported in the news of people getting fired for shit they post on twitter or facebook.

Jesus Christ man, pull your head out of your ass already.

That people do that does make it right. In the 1950s writers and actors were blacklisted for even the rumor of being communists. Was that OK?

 

[Michelle420]

What law/regulation/whatever is not being applied equally?

1A of the Constituioin

When you are hired for a Job, you agree to terms of your employment, so you may not use racial or sexual speech.

Same applies to fraternities when you sign their contract to be a member.

If you want free speech don't agree to terms of employment or fraternity etc etc......

The two arent remotely comparable. And no job requires you to give up rights to free speech away from the job place.

If you are in Job uniform or if you are shouting on a public space that your company won't hire black and state instead your company lynches black people, you would be fired and possibly sued for misrepresenting and defaming a companies reputation.

True...but again a job is a private institution

But they signed a membership agreement to the rules of conduct. They didn't have to join the fraternity, but once they agreed to present themselves as members and the code of conduct they volunteered to the terms.

 

[Asclepias]

And no job requires you to give up rights to free speech away from the job place.

There are countless examples reported in the news of people getting fired for shit they post on twitter or facebook.

Jesus Christ man, pull your head out of your ass already.

That people do that does make it right. In the 1950s writers and actors were blacklisted for even the rumor of being communists. Was that OK?

What does that have to do with free speech?

 

[manifold]

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

Last time I checked, universities get to decide who they let attend and who they don't.

I dont think so. Let them try to bar black students and see what happens.

I have no doubt that many many black people are denied admission to various colleges and universities everyday.

You seem hellbent on trying to make some sort of academic point. And failing that miserably, the only point you're getting across is that you're at best a butthurt racist sympathizer and at worst a racist shitbag yourself.

Many white people are denied admission too. But not because they're white. Same as black people. Its not because they're black.
Another shit attempt at red herring fallacy. You're not very good at this, are you?
I am hellbent on making the point that kicking people out for expressing views they thought were private is contrary to freedom of expression. I realize that bothers a shitbag statist **** like you but there you have it.

So now you think these students were expelled because they're white?

bwaahahahahhahahahahahahaha!

 

[Asclepias]

Ok you want to argue semantics, laws, regulations whatever.........
Until they are applied equally they are still just a joke no matter what you call them.

What law/regulation/whatever is not being applied equally?

1A of the Constituioin

When you are hired for a Job, you agree to terms of your employment, so you may not use racial or sexual speech.

Same applies to fraternities when you sign their contract to be a member.

If you want free speech don't agree to terms of employment or fraternity etc etc......

The two arent remotely comparable. And no job requires you to give up rights to free speech away from the job place.

How do those people get fired for making racist comments from home on Twitter?

 

[BluePhantom]

1A of the Constituioin

When you are hired for a Job, you agree to terms of your employment, so you may not use racial or sexual speech.

Same applies to fraternities when you sign their contract to be a member.

If you want free speech don't agree to terms of employment or fraternity etc etc......

The two arent remotely comparable. And no job requires you to give up rights to free speech away from the job place.

If you are in Job uniform or if you are shouting on a public space that your company won't hire black and state instead your company lynches black people, you would be fired and possibly sued for misrepresenting and defaming a companies reputation.

True...but again a job is a private institution

But they signed a membership agreement to the rules of conduct. They didn't have to join the fraternity, but once they agreed to present themselves as members and the code of conduct they volunteered to the terms.

But the fraternity is a private organization. SAE national as a private organization has every right to pull their charter. OU is a public institution. The rules are different. We'll see how it all works out, but I think there is an argument to be made that by expelling these assholes, OU may have violated their first amendment rights. We'll see. I am sure the courts will sort it out.

Now as stupid as I find their actions, I have to say that I hope we don't go further down the path of restricting speech. It's a dangerous, slippery slope, man

 

[The Rabbi]

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

Last time I checked, universities get to decide who they let attend and who they don't.

I dont think so. Let them try to bar black students and see what happens.

I have no doubt that many many black people are denied admission to various colleges and universities everyday.

You seem hellbent on trying to make some sort of academic point. And failing that miserably, the only point you're getting across is that you're at best a butthurt racist sympathizer and at worst a racist shitbag yourself.

Many white people are denied admission too. But not because they're white. Same as black people. Its not because they're black.
Another shit attempt at red herring fallacy. You're not very good at this, are you?
I am hellbent on making the point that kicking people out for expressing views they thought were private is contrary to freedom of expression. I realize that bothers a shitbag statist **** like you but there you have it.

So now you think these students were expelled because they're white?

bwaahahahahhahahahahahahaha!

OK, you went full retard. You've never held up to any kind of debate, always defaulting to stupid shit like this.
Bye bye

 

[Michelle420]

The Frat publicly stated on their website the students ideals do not represent the frats values. Those students made specific claims about their frats membership and excluding people, then added ideology about lynching people.

The fraternity does not want to be represented that way, and it does break the University's constitution on organizations being discriminatary.

There is also a code of coduct those students have to agree to with that fraternity they are representing which they also broke.

The fraternity is a privte org. They can do what they want with members.

They did, they kicked them out for misrepresenting them.

So those kids made false statements publicly about the fraternity they belonged to.

No the kids made no false statements. That's garbage.

You mean their fraternity would lynch black people? Is that True? I read the Fraternities rules and membership contract I didn't see it there anywhere, in fact they are not supposed to be discriminatory.

I dont see where the guys said they wanted to lynch black people.

You don't see any violations, I think you just don't want to be honest.

The 10-second video filmed on Saturday and released by Unheard, a student organization at OU, appears to show members of the Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity chanting “there will never be a nig*** in SAE.” The chant continues, “you can hang them from a tree, but they’ll never sign with me.”

They violated their membership agreement I posted the membership form.

http://www.saerecord.net/files/docs/FraternityLaws.pdf

They misrepresented their fraternity and they got kicked out.
He said the university's legal staff was exploring whether the students who initiated and encouraged the chant may have violated Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, which prohibits racial discrimination.


http://www.ou.edu/content/studentli...download/file.res/Model Constitution 2012.pdf

 

[manifold]

True...but again a job is a private institution

And what about the government worker that got fired for participating in the "black lives matter" protest that shut down Rt. 93 in Boston several weeks ago?

I'm sure you and Rabbi were all worked up in a lather over her right to free speech getting infringed like that.