White college fraternity in Oklahoma shut down for overt racism

[Asclepias]

I'm not convinced they should be expelled.

I'm merely saying it's well within the universities rights to do so.

Because unlike you, my love of freedom is not couched in biased political ideology.

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

The University of Oklahoma boasts over 420 registered student organizations that cover a wide variety of interests from academic initiatives to recreational sports, religious groups, honor societies, hobbies, cultural clubs, and more.

All student organizations at the University of Oklahoma are required to register with the Student Government Association (SGA) in order to become or remain eligible for the SGA primary funding process. New organizations may register at any time during the academic year if funding is not of consideration.

Registered organizations receive benefits from the University of Oklahoma including free or discounted reservations of University facilities, the ability to publicize on campus, an assigned mailbox in the Conoco Wing of the Union, sponsorship opportunities from University departments, a University Web site and e-mail address, and more.

Register a Student Organization

Membership in, association with, and benefits emanating from the Organization and its related activities shall be based upon such considerations as performance, educational achievement, and other criteria related to the goals of the organization and purposes of the activities. Judgments in this regard based solely on an individual’s race, color, religion, national origin, age, gender, sexual orientation, disability, veteran status, marital status, or political belief are not judgments based on such considerations. Further, the purpose of the organization must be consistent with public policy as established by prevailing University Community standards.

http://www.ou.edu/content/studentlife/get_involved/student_organizations/register/jcr:content/contentpar/download/file.res/Model Constitution 2012.pdf

I dont believe that covers frats.

The Frat publicly stated on their website the students ideals do not represent the frats values. Those students made specific claims about their frats membership and excluding people, then added ideology about lynching people.

The fraternity does not want to be represented that way, and it does break the University's constitution on organizations being discriminatary.

There is also a code of coduct those students have to agree to with that fraternity they are representing which they also broke.

The fraternity is a privte org. They can do what they want with members.

Not according to OU or the fraternity itself.

 

[Asclepias]

The first amendment has nothing to do with consequences of free speech. It just lets you know you have the right to face the consequences.

Must have missed the consequences from the government clause. Kind of like how Patrick Henry said. Give me liberty,unless the government doesn't approve and wants to selectively prosecute, or give me death.

You miss a lot of things. Dangers of not being educated.

tell us more about this clause that protects your precious feels.

Take your pick. The right to vote would be a good one to start at.

. Tell us how this right to vote protects your feelings from mean white people saying wrong words.

White people can say mean things at the voting site if they are brave enough and we still get to vote.

 

[Michelle420]

I'm not convinced they should be expelled.

I'm merely saying it's well within the universities rights to do so.

Because unlike you, my love of freedom is not couched in biased political ideology.

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

They make the rules?

So the university has carte blanche to expel students for anything whatsoever? I dont think so.

Thats what rules are for. I know you dont think but thats what we are trying to correct for you.

The rules say the university can trample on students' rights to free speech? I dont think so.
How about if the university tried to expel a student group for hosting a conference on Afrocentrism? WOuld that be OK?

The fraternity has rules the college has a student constitution, a student code of conduct and additionally rules and conduct for social clubs and organizations aligned with the University.

The students violated those agreed terms.

As far as expelling goes, I'd have to research it more and see the process of discipline is in regards to rule violations.

They did break their agreements, but is that something they can be expelled for? I am not sure.

Certainly, they can and should be out of the fraternity that they misrepresented.

Offenses. Offenses cognizable by the Fraternity are 1) commission of a flagrant offense against the laws of the land or a college or university; 2) violation of the laws, by-laws and lawful orders of any regularly constituted body of the Fraternity, including these Fraternity Laws; 3) violation of the oath taken at the time of

The Fraternity has it's members sign this contract
.
http://www.saerecord.net/files/docs/FraternityLaws.pdf

 

[BluePhantom]

That is not what he said. A couple students have been expelled now. Personally, I think those students may have a legal claim against OU for it as it is a public institution. We'll see what happens but I would not be at all surprised to see this end up in court.

On what grounds would the students have any legal claim whatsoever?

Violation of their right to free speech. I am not a constitutional scholar so I don't know, but it seems to me that an institution that is backed by the state is a public institution and therefore must respect the constitutional right to free speech. Here are a couple articles by or citing those who agree.

No a public university may not expel students for racist speech UPDATED in light of the students expulsion - The Washington Post

The Oklahoma Frat Song Was Racist But Was Still Free Speech The Daily Caller

 

[manifold]

Ok you want to argue semantics, laws, regulations whatever.........
Until they are applied equally they are still just a joke no matter what you call them.

What law/regulation/whatever is not being applied equally?

 

[The Rabbi]

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

They make the rules?

So the university has carte blanche to expel students for anything whatsoever? I dont think so.

Thats what rules are for. I know you dont think but thats what we are trying to correct for you.

The rules say the university can trample on students' rights to free speech? I dont think so.
How about if the university tried to expel a student group for hosting a conference on Afrocentrism? WOuld that be OK?

The fraternity has rules the college has a student constitution, a student code of conduct and additionally rules and conduct for social clubs and organizations aligned with the University.

The students violated those agreed terms.

As far as expelling goes, I'd have to research it more and see the process of discipline is in regards to rule violations.

They did break their agreements, but is that something they can be expelled for? I am not sure.

Certainly, they can and should be out of the fraternity that they misrepresented.

Offenses. Offenses cognizable by the Fraternity are 1) commission of a flagrant offense against the laws of the land or a college or university; 2) violation of the laws, by-laws and lawful orders of any regularly constituted body of the Fraternity, including these Fraternity Laws; 3) violation of the oath taken at the time of

The Fraternity has it's members sign this contract
.
http://www.saerecord.net/files/docs/FraternityLaws.pdf

What provision did the students violate?

 

[Michelle420]

I'm not convinced they should be expelled.

I'm merely saying it's well within the universities rights to do so.

Because unlike you, my love of freedom is not couched in biased political ideology.

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

The University of Oklahoma boasts over 420 registered student organizations that cover a wide variety of interests from academic initiatives to recreational sports, religious groups, honor societies, hobbies, cultural clubs, and more.

All student organizations at the University of Oklahoma are required to register with the Student Government Association (SGA) in order to become or remain eligible for the SGA primary funding process. New organizations may register at any time during the academic year if funding is not of consideration.

Registered organizations receive benefits from the University of Oklahoma including free or discounted reservations of University facilities, the ability to publicize on campus, an assigned mailbox in the Conoco Wing of the Union, sponsorship opportunities from University departments, a University Web site and e-mail address, and more.

Register a Student Organization

Membership in, association with, and benefits emanating from the Organization and its related activities shall be based upon such considerations as performance, educational achievement, and other criteria related to the goals of the organization and purposes of the activities. Judgments in this regard based solely on an individual’s race, color, religion, national origin, age, gender, sexual orientation, disability, veteran status, marital status, or political belief are not judgments based on such considerations. Further, the purpose of the organization must be consistent with public policy as established by prevailing University Community standards.

http://www.ou.edu/content/studentlife/get_involved/student_organizations/register/jcr:content/contentpar/download/file.res/Model Constitution 2012.pdf

I dont believe that covers frats.

The Frat publicly stated on their website the students ideals do not represent the frats values. Those students made specific claims about their frats membership and excluding people, then added ideology about lynching people.

The fraternity does not want to be represented that way, and it does break the University's constitution on organizations being discriminatary.

There is also a code of coduct those students have to agree to with that fraternity they are representing which they also broke.

The fraternity is a privte org. They can do what they want with members.

They did, they kicked them out for misrepresenting them.

So those kids made false statements publicly about the fraternity they belonged to.

 

[rightwinger]

Government guarantees you free speech
Unless you say something they dont like at a government school, you are expelled. no double think there at all.

The government can't pass a law or prosecute you for your speech

You can get expelled from a government school for what you say just the same as a private school

So the first amendment only applies in public settings when you say things the government likes. Got it.

The first amendment applies to government prosecution....it does not mean there can be no consequences for your speech

 

[The Rabbi]

Ok you want to argue semantics, laws, regulations whatever.........
Until they are applied equally they are still just a joke no matter what you call them.

What law/regulation/whatever is not being applied equally?

1A of the Constituioin

 

[manifold]

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

Last time I checked, universities get to decide who they let attend and who they don't.

I dont think so. Let them try to bar black students and see what happens.

I have no doubt that many many black people are denied admission to various colleges and universities everyday.

You seem hellbent on trying to make some sort of academic point. And failing that miserably, the only point you're getting across is that you're at best a butthurt racist sympathizer and at worst a racist shitbag yourself.

 

[BluePhantom]

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

They make the rules?

So the university has carte blanche to expel students for anything whatsoever? I dont think so.

Thats what rules are for. I know you dont think but thats what we are trying to correct for you.

The rules say the university can trample on students' rights to free speech? I dont think so.
How about if the university tried to expel a student group for hosting a conference on Afrocentrism? WOuld that be OK?

The fraternity has rules the college has a student constitution, a student code of conduct and additionally rules and conduct for social clubs and organizations aligned with the University.

The students violated those agreed terms.

As far as expelling goes, I'd have to research it more and see the process of discipline is in regards to rule violations.

They did break their agreements, but is that something they can be expelled for? I am not sure.

Certainly, they can and should be out of the fraternity that they misrepresented.

Offenses. Offenses cognizable by the Fraternity are 1) commission of a flagrant offense against the laws of the land or a college or university; 2) violation of the laws, by-laws and lawful orders of any regularly constituted body of the Fraternity, including these Fraternity Laws; 3) violation of the oath taken at the time of

The Fraternity has it's members sign this contract
.
http://www.saerecord.net/files/docs/FraternityLaws.pdf

Again I am not sure a court would find a contract binding if it includes the removal of constitutional rights. I have been in certain situations where another person and I had an agreement that we wished to put in writing and our lawyers said that the courts would not view it as a binding contract for similar reasons. It's a good point but I am not sure a court will recognize it. We will see

 

[Desperado]

Ok you want to argue semantics, laws, regulations whatever.........
Until they are applied equally they are still just a joke no matter what you call them.

What law/regulation/whatever is not being applied equally?

You tell me.... a "church" preaches a racist message and it is ok
a fraternity sings a racist song and the world is on fire. Seems that something is not being applied equally, maybe it is the media coverage.,

 

[Asclepias]

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

Last time I checked, universities get to decide who they let attend and who they don't.

I dont think so. Let them try to bar black students and see what happens.

I have no doubt that many many black people are denied admission to various colleges and universities everyday.

You seem hellbent on trying to make some sort of academic point. And failing that miserably, the only point you're getting across is that you're at best a butthurt racist sympathizer and at worst a racist shitbag yourself.

He will soon shift into deflection mode. In Rabbis mind he is undefeated in debates.

 

[Asclepias]

Ok you want to argue semantics, laws, regulations whatever.........
Until they are applied equally they are still just a joke no matter what you call them.

What law/regulation/whatever is not being applied equally?

You tell me.... a "church" preaches a racist message and it is ok
a fraternity sings a racist song and the world is on fire. Seems that something is not being applied equally, maybe it is the media coverage.,

You tell me who is the church answering to? You must be an idiot to think OU can shut down Rev Wrights church.

 

[Michelle420]

They make the rules?

So the university has carte blanche to expel students for anything whatsoever? I dont think so.

Thats what rules are for. I know you dont think but thats what we are trying to correct for you.

The rules say the university can trample on students' rights to free speech? I dont think so.
How about if the university tried to expel a student group for hosting a conference on Afrocentrism? WOuld that be OK?

The fraternity has rules the college has a student constitution, a student code of conduct and additionally rules and conduct for social clubs and organizations aligned with the University.

The students violated those agreed terms.

As far as expelling goes, I'd have to research it more and see the process of discipline is in regards to rule violations.

They did break their agreements, but is that something they can be expelled for? I am not sure.

Certainly, they can and should be out of the fraternity that they misrepresented.

Offenses. Offenses cognizable by the Fraternity are 1) commission of a flagrant offense against the laws of the land or a college or university; 2) violation of the laws, by-laws and lawful orders of any regularly constituted body of the Fraternity, including these Fraternity Laws; 3) violation of the oath taken at the time of

The Fraternity has it's members sign this contract
.
http://www.saerecord.net/files/docs/FraternityLaws.pdf

What provision did the students violate?

Read ALL the links I posted and then ask.

They signed contracts agreeing not to discriminate and they publicly said their fraternity discriminates and violated their agreed on code of conduct in representing their fraternity, the fraternity agrees with the university not to discriminate, follow the links and see all documents that have to be signed.

The video posted online shows several people on a bus participating in a chant that included a racial slur, referenced lynching and indicated black students would never be admitted to OU's chapter of Sigma Alpha Epsilon. The fraternity also said in a statement late Monday that the chant was not a part of fraternity tradition.

"We immediately needed to share that with the OU student body," said Hall, a junior. "For students to say they're going to lynch an entire group of people. ... It's disgusting."

 

[The Rabbi]

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

The University of Oklahoma boasts over 420 registered student organizations that cover a wide variety of interests from academic initiatives to recreational sports, religious groups, honor societies, hobbies, cultural clubs, and more.

All student organizations at the University of Oklahoma are required to register with the Student Government Association (SGA) in order to become or remain eligible for the SGA primary funding process. New organizations may register at any time during the academic year if funding is not of consideration.

Registered organizations receive benefits from the University of Oklahoma including free or discounted reservations of University facilities, the ability to publicize on campus, an assigned mailbox in the Conoco Wing of the Union, sponsorship opportunities from University departments, a University Web site and e-mail address, and more.

Register a Student Organization

Membership in, association with, and benefits emanating from the Organization and its related activities shall be based upon such considerations as performance, educational achievement, and other criteria related to the goals of the organization and purposes of the activities. Judgments in this regard based solely on an individual’s race, color, religion, national origin, age, gender, sexual orientation, disability, veteran status, marital status, or political belief are not judgments based on such considerations. Further, the purpose of the organization must be consistent with public policy as established by prevailing University Community standards.

http://www.ou.edu/content/studentlife/get_involved/student_organizations/register/jcr:content/contentpar/download/file.res/Model Constitution 2012.pdf

I dont believe that covers frats.

The Frat publicly stated on their website the students ideals do not represent the frats values. Those students made specific claims about their frats membership and excluding people, then added ideology about lynching people.

The fraternity does not want to be represented that way, and it does break the University's constitution on organizations being discriminatary.

There is also a code of coduct those students have to agree to with that fraternity they are representing which they also broke.

The fraternity is a privte org. They can do what they want with members.

They did, they kicked them out for misrepresenting them.

So those kids made false statements publicly about the fraternity they belonged to.

No the kids made no false statements. That's garbage.

 

[The Rabbi]

So the university has carte blanche to expel students for anything whatsoever? I dont think so.

Thats what rules are for. I know you dont think but thats what we are trying to correct for you.

The rules say the university can trample on students' rights to free speech? I dont think so.
How about if the university tried to expel a student group for hosting a conference on Afrocentrism? WOuld that be OK?

The fraternity has rules the college has a student constitution, a student code of conduct and additionally rules and conduct for social clubs and organizations aligned with the University.

The students violated those agreed terms.

As far as expelling goes, I'd have to research it more and see the process of discipline is in regards to rule violations.

They did break their agreements, but is that something they can be expelled for? I am not sure.

Certainly, they can and should be out of the fraternity that they misrepresented.

Offenses. Offenses cognizable by the Fraternity are 1) commission of a flagrant offense against the laws of the land or a college or university; 2) violation of the laws, by-laws and lawful orders of any regularly constituted body of the Fraternity, including these Fraternity Laws; 3) violation of the oath taken at the time of

The Fraternity has it's members sign this contract
.
http://www.saerecord.net/files/docs/FraternityLaws.pdf

What provision did the students violate?

Read ALL the links I posted and then ask.

They signed contracts agreeing not to discriminate and they publicly said their fraternity discriminates and violated their agreed on code of conduct in representing their fraternity, the fraternity agrees with the university not to discriminate, follow the links and see all documents that have to be signed.

The video posted online shows several people on a bus participating in a chant that included a racial slur, referenced lynching and indicated black students would never be admitted to OU's chapter of Sigma Alpha Epsilon. The fraternity also said in a statement late Monday that the chant was not a part of fraternity tradition.

"We immediately needed to share that with the OU student body," said Hall, a junior. "For students to say they're going to lynch an entire group of people. ... It's disgusting."

They did not say the fraternity discriminates. Where did they say that?

 

[manifold]

That is not what he said. A couple students have been expelled now. Personally, I think those students may have a legal claim against OU for it as it is a public institution. We'll see what happens but I would not be at all surprised to see this end up in court.

On what grounds would the students have any legal claim whatsoever?

Violation of their right to free speech. I am not a constitutional scholar so I don't know, but it seems to me that an institution that is backed by the state is a public institution and therefore must respect the constitutional right to free speech. Here are a couple articles by or citing those who agree.

No a public university may not expel students for racist speech UPDATED in light of the students expulsion - The Washington Post

The Oklahoma Frat Song Was Racist But Was Still Free Speech The Daily Caller

Interesting, but I'm not sure that argument ultimately holds water in court. There is ample SCOTUS precedent giving public schools the authority to limit speech they believe is ultimately disruptive. Even when that speech occurs off grounds and outside of school hours.

 

[manifold]

Ok you want to argue semantics, laws, regulations whatever.........
Until they are applied equally they are still just a joke no matter what you call them.

What law/regulation/whatever is not being applied equally?

1A of the Constituioin

Citation needed.

 

[The Rabbi]

Why is it in the university's right to do so?

Last time I checked, universities get to decide who they let attend and who they don't.

I dont think so. Let them try to bar black students and see what happens.

I have no doubt that many many black people are denied admission to various colleges and universities everyday.

You seem hellbent on trying to make some sort of academic point. And failing that miserably, the only point you're getting across is that you're at best a butthurt racist sympathizer and at worst a racist shitbag yourself.

Many white people are denied admission too. But not because they're white. Same as black people. Its not because they're black.
Another shit attempt at red herring fallacy. You're not very good at this, are you?
I am hellbent on making the point that kicking people out for expressing views they thought were private is contrary to freedom of expression. I realize that bothers a shitbag statist **** like you but there you have it.