Who cares what Putin thinks

[BWK]

I'm not giving Putin oxygen. I just think the premise of this thread is ridiculous and potentially suicidal.

Post #125 went right over your head.

 

[georgephillip]

Cold war objectives like democracy? GD Putinists

I think that version of democracy is more like a fig-leaf designed to provide cover for US dominance of Eurasia:

Monthly Review | April 2022 (Volume 73, Number 11)

"In order for the Atlantic Alliance under U.S. leadership to dominate Eurasia, it was first necessary for it to gain primacy over what Brzezinski called 'the black hole' left by the Soviet Union’s departure from the world stage.

"This meant seeking to diminish Russia to the point that it could no longer claim great power status.

"The key 'geopolitical pivot' on which this turned, Brzezinski insisted, was Ukraine.

"Minus Ukraine, Russia was irrevocably weakened, while a Ukraine that was incorporated as part of NATO would be a dagger at Moscow’s heart.

"Yet, any attempt to turn Ukraine against Russia, he warned, would be seen as a major security threat, a red line, by Russia itself.

"This then required the 'enlargement of NATO,' extending it all the way to Ukraine, shifting strategic weapons to the east, with the object of eventually gaining control of Ukraine itself.

"The enactment of this grand strategy would likewise make Europe, notably Germany, more dependent on the United States, undercutting the independence of the European Union (Brzezinski, Grand Chessboard, 41, 87–92, 113, 121–22, 200)"

 

[PK1]

Post #125 went right over your head.

Over his “Meathead”? LOL.
Maybe that’s why he/she calls themselves that.
No doubt we can’t trust what Putin says; we can only trust what he does after the FACT.
.

 

[francoHFW]

I think that version of democracy is more like a fig-leaf designed to provide cover for US dominance of Eurasia:

Monthly Review | April 2022 (Volume 73, Number 11)

"In order for the Atlantic Alliance under U.S. leadership to dominate Eurasia, it was first necessary for it to gain primacy over what Brzezinski called 'the black hole' left by the Soviet Union’s departure from the world stage.

"This meant seeking to diminish Russia to the point that it could no longer claim great power status.

"The key 'geopolitical pivot' on which this turned, Brzezinski insisted, was Ukraine.

"Minus Ukraine, Russia was irrevocably weakened, while a Ukraine that was incorporated as part of NATO would be a dagger at Moscow’s heart.

"Yet, any attempt to turn Ukraine against Russia, he warned, would be seen as a major security threat, a red line, by Russia itself.

"This then required the 'enlargement of NATO,' extending it all the way to Ukraine, shifting strategic weapons to the east, with the object of eventually gaining control of Ukraine itself.

"The enactment of this grand strategy would likewise make Europe, notably Germany, more dependent on the United States, undercutting the independence of the European Union (Brzezinski, Grand Chessboard, 41, 87–92, 113, 121–22, 200)"

So when does Russia get over this paranoia? But I do blame Booosh I for not supporting their democracy and capitalism more...

 

[francoHFW]

I don't think we should forget Brzezinski who as a "proud son of Poland" hated Russia and helped perpetuate the US "Grand Strategy" for becoming "the world's paramount power."

Monthly Review | April 2022 (Volume 73, Number 11)

"Brzezinski remained a key advisor to subsequent U.S. administrations but did not have a prominent official role, given his hawkish reputation and the extremely negative view of him in Russia, which, in the early 1990s under Boris Yeltsin, had a close, puppet-like connection to Washington.

"Nevertheless, more than any other U.S. strategic thinker, it was Brzezinski who articulated the U.S. grand strategy on Russia that was enacted over three decades by successive U.S. administrations.

"The NATO wars that dismembered Yugoslavia in the 1990s overlapped with the onset of NATO’s eastward expansion.

"Washington had promised the Kremlin under Mikhail Gorbachev, at the time of German reunification, that NATO would expand 'not one inch' to the east into the former Warsaw Pact countries.

"Nevertheless, in October 1996, Bill Clinton, while campaigning for reelection, indicated that he favored the expansion of NATO into the former Soviet sphere and a policy was put into motion the next year, followed by all subsequent U.S. administrations.

"Shortly afterward, in 1997, Brzezinski published his book, The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives, in which he declared that the United States was in a position 'for the first time ever [for] a non-Eurasian power' of becoming “the key arbiter of Eurasian power relations,” while also constituting 'the world’s paramount power.'"

....for good...we'll all get along when we all have democracy and fair capitalism...

 

[georgephillip]

Trump did. That's why he cheers for Putin now and before. Biden cheers for Democracy.

Why did Biden cheer for the violent overthrow of a duly elected Ukrainian president in 2014?

"Biden shakes hands with Ukrainian fascist leader, Oleh Yaroslavovych Tyahnybok, in Kiev, Ukraine, April 22, 2014"

MintPress Study: NY Times, Washington Post Driving U.S. to War with Russia Over Ukraine

 

[georgephillip]

could possibly believe Putin when he said he wasn't going to attack Ukraine, but since he did, I'm sticking with the fact that Putin is a murdering monster of children. Lie to me once, and all bets are off. And your credibility is lost forever.

If it's true all governments lie, has the US also lost all credibility in your eyes?

 

[georgephillip]

You didn't answer my question.

The US war on terrorism has been bipartisan, but that war has been highly selective about which individuals and states it identifies as "terrorist"

 

[gipper]

If it's true all governments lie, has the US also lost all credibility in your eyes?

How could any American believe their government and corporate media, after decades of lies? Yet many still do.

The power of the government/media complex to propagandize millions shouldn’t be underestimated.

 

[georgephillip]

So when does Russia get over this paranoia? But I do blame Booosh I for not supporting their democracy and capitalism more...

I think we would find it very difficult to convince the Russians they are being paranoid about US intentions of regime change.

They have a living memory of the 1990s when US "shock therapy" destroyed their economy, and they probably expect similar treatment today:

The Harvard Boys Do Russia

"...Harvard Professor Jeffrey Sachs and other Western economists participated in meetings at a dacha outside Moscow where young, pro-Yeltsin reformers planned Russia’s economic and political future.

"Sachs teamed up with Yegor Gaidar, Yeltsin’s first architect of economic reform, to promote a plan of 'shock therapy' to swiftly eliminate most of the price controls and subsidies that had underpinned life for Soviet citizens for decades.

"Shock therapy produced more shock—not least, hyperinflation that hit 2,500 percent—than therapy."

 

[georgephillip]

How could any American believe their government and corporate media, after decades of lies? Yet many still do.

The power of the government/media complex to propagandize millions shouldn’t be underestimated.

Given the level of public, corporate, and individual debt that currently exists in the US economy, how large will the lies have to be when rising interest rates and global de-dollarization make it clear the US dollar no longer serves as a global reserve currency?

 

[gipper]

I think we would find it very difficult to convince the Russians they are being paranoid about US intentions of regime change.

They have a living memory of the 1990s when US "shock therapy" destroyed their economy, and they probably expect similar treatment today:

The Harvard Boys Do Russia

"...Harvard Professor Jeffrey Sachs and other Western economists participated in meetings at a dacha outside Moscow where young, pro-Yeltsin reformers planned Russia’s economic and political future.

"Sachs teamed up with Yegor Gaidar, Yeltsin’s first architect of economic reform, to promote a plan of 'shock therapy' to swiftly eliminate most of the price controls and subsidies that had underpinned life for Soviet citizens for decades.

"Shock therapy produced more shock—not least, hyperinflation that hit 2,500 percent—than therapy."

It’s so absurd and laughable that so many Americans think Russia has nothing to fear from the US and NATO. Have they not paid attention to US and NATO warring for the last 30 years? It’s as if history should be ignored, but only regarding US wars and imperialism.

 

[gipper]

Given the level of public, corporate, and individual debt that currently exists in the US economy, how large will the lies have to be when rising interest rates and global de-dollarization make it clear the US dollar no longer serves as a global reserve currency?

Yes. The US empire may be coming to an end. Once the dollar loses reserve status, it could all come crumbling down and nearly all Americans will suffer, except those Americans responsible will likely benefit.

 

[Lesh]

It's not a war. It's a special operation.
Similar to what the U.S. called Vietnam; a police action.

True story.

Sock puppet story

 

[Lesh]

There’s a whole lotta sock puppetry on this thread

Of course

 

[georgephillip]

It’s so absurd and laughable that so many Americans think Russia has nothing to fear from the US and NATO. Have they not paid attention to US and NATO warring for the last 30 years? It’s as if history should be ignored, but only regarding US wars and imperialism.

Americans who grew up during the Cold War (as I did) were thoroughly indoctrinated to hate all things Russian. Most of us who went to public schools learned nothing about Russian history especially regarding Soviet contributions in WWII.

Russians learn from an early age about how Europe and the US have invaded their country multiple times during the 20th century. I suspect they see NATO expansion as an existential threat that can only be countered with nuclear weapons.

If the war in Ukraine really signals the end of globalization, the resulting world-wide economic fallout might convince Russians and Americans they have a common enemy?

 

[francoHFW]

It’s so absurd and laughable that so many Americans think Russia has nothing to fear from the US and NATO. Have they not paid attention to US and NATO warring for the last 30 years? It’s as if history should be ignored, but only regarding US wars and imperialism.

NATO attacked who? Yes, Republicans suck, showed with Iraq how Putin could try this. Propaganda misinformation. Then the real world shows up....

 

[gipper]

Americans who grew up during the Cold War (as I did) were thoroughly indoctrinated to hate all things Russian. Most of us who went to public schools learned nothing about Russian history especially regarding Soviet contributions in WWII.

Russians learn from an early age about how Europe and the US have invaded their country multiple times during the 20th century. I suspect they see NATO expansion as an existential threat that can only be countered with nuclear weapons.

If the war in Ukraine really signals the end of globalization, the resulting world-wide economic fallout might convince Russians and Americans they have a common enemy?

That would be a favorable consequence…Americans and Russians realizing they have a common enemy.

I too grew up during the Cold War and fully backed Reagan’s actions to end the USSR. My wife‘s family are from Eastern Europe and have many awful stories of Soviet mistreatment. Her grandfather was murdered by Soviet troops some years after WWII for no reason. They still hate and fear Russia and Putin without question. They seem intent on pushing for war with Russia.

You'd think they’d know better.

 

[gipper]

NATO attacked who? Yes, Republicans suck, showed with Iraq how Putin could try this. Propaganda misinformation. Then the real world shows up....

Jesus man. WTF!!! Are you really this clueless. Are you unaware of Serbia and Libya?

Who controls NATO? Is NATO not designed for killing Russians? Do not NATO nations have enormous war material including nukes all aimed at Russia? War games are constantly held by NATO nations near the Russian border.

How can you be so blind?

 

[francoHFW]

How could any American believe their government and corporate media, after decades of lies? Yet many still do.

The power of the government/media complex to propagandize millions shouldn’t be underestimated.

Another fear mongered, brainwashed functional moron. The only people lying are murdoch pundits and outlets and their GOP/Trump minions....Change the channel. Every one in the world knows it but the GOP base...