Who's Afraid of Socialism?

[bripat9643]

Definition of intrinsic
1a: belonging to the essential nature or constitution of a thing

What is the weight in gold that can be mined in an hour given the current technology? Value could be determined by that.

But it's not. The chart below shows the price of gold over time. The amount that can be mined in an hour has hardly changed.

Price is something separate from value. Price is determined in the market. Your graph shows how irrational it can be.

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value? Do you like irrationality? Do you enjoy going to the gas station and seeing what the price of gas will be from day to day? Or food items at the grocery store?

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value?

How many hours of labor at how many different wage levels went into the gallon of gas I buy?
Or is every hour of every worker worth exactly the same amount?

Do you enjoy going to the gas station and seeing what the price of gas will be from day to day?

It does have its advantages over seeing the price of gas in East Germany....where the waiting list for a car was 12 years or more.

Or food items at the grocery store?

Yeah, you don't want to get me started on food in Commie countries.....how's that Maduro diet?

The price of food items in Venezuela is great. The only problem: no food.

FDR came up with farm subsidies. The left comes up with solutions the right wing has nothing but excuses.

Farm subsidies are the biggest boondoggle ever conceived.

 

[dblack]

Socialism is voluntary government servitude.
It might work halfass in a small homogenious country, but not in a large diverse country like the United States.

We have a Second Amendment and should have no security problems in our free States.

We have a daniel, spouting inane limericks.

 

[bripat9643]

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

I hesitate to engage you on this, because you usually play dodge 'em rather than directly defending your views, but let me ask you this. How is your conception of value "enforced"? If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

Even more important, how do the pricing authorities even determine a price? What is the "value" of a ton of coal? How would they even guess without having market prices to look at?

 

[dblack]

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

I hesitate to engage you on this, because you usually play dodge 'em rather than directly defending your views, but let me ask you this. How is your conception of value "enforced"? If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

Even more important, how do the pricing authorities even determine a price? What is the "value" of a ton of coal? How would they even guess without having market prices to look at?

You really don't wanna go there.

 

[danielpalos]

But it's not. The chart below shows the price of gold over time. The amount that can be mined in an hour has hardly changed.

Price is something separate from value. Price is determined in the market. Your graph shows how irrational it can be.

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value? Do you like irrationality? Do you enjoy going to the gas station and seeing what the price of gas will be from day to day? Or food items at the grocery store?

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value?

How many hours of labor at how many different wage levels went into the gallon of gas I buy?
Or is every hour of every worker worth exactly the same amount?

Do you enjoy going to the gas station and seeing what the price of gas will be from day to day?

It does have its advantages over seeing the price of gas in East Germany....where the waiting list for a car was 12 years or more.

Or food items at the grocery store?

Yeah, you don't want to get me started on food in Commie countries.....how's that Maduro diet?

The price of food items in Venezuela is great. The only problem: no food.

FDR came up with farm subsidies. The left comes up with solutions the right wing has nothing but excuses.

Farm subsidies are the biggest boondoggle ever conceived.

we have an oversupply problem not an over demand problem.

 

[danielpalos]

Socialism is voluntary government servitude.
It might work halfass in a small homogenious country, but not in a large diverse country like the United States.

We have a Second Amendment and should have no security problems in our free States.

We have a daniel, spouting inane limericks.

troll. i have arguments.

 

[dblack]

Socialism is voluntary government servitude.
It might work halfass in a small homogenious country, but not in a large diverse country like the United States.

We have a Second Amendment and should have no security problems in our free States.

We have a daniel, spouting inane limericks.

troll. i have arguments.

No, you have herpes. Very different.

 

[danielpalos]

Socialism is voluntary government servitude.
It might work halfass in a small homogenious country, but not in a large diverse country like the United States.

We have a Second Amendment and should have no security problems in our free States.

We have a daniel, spouting inane limericks.

troll. i have arguments.

No, you have herpes. Very different.

right wingers make up anything they want.

question every Thing, about the Right Wing, is my motto.

 

[Tehon]

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

I hesitate to engage you on this, because you usually play dodge 'em rather than directly defending your views, but let me ask you this. How is your conception of value "enforced"? If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

That is ridiculous. You are not limited by anything.

If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

It isn't a barter system. We use the division of labor so bartering isn't really feasible. Whatever is produced would be made available in the market and you would use labor credits to acquire what you needed from the market.

If you don't like the cost of something, don't buy it. Isn't that how it works now?

 

[Tehon]

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

I hesitate to engage you on this, because you usually play dodge 'em rather than directly defending your views, but let me ask you this. How is your conception of value "enforced"? If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

Even more important, how do the pricing authorities even determine a price? What is the "value" of a ton of coal? How would they even guess without having market prices to look at?

You really don't wanna go there.

I have no intention of dragging this out.

 

[bripat9643]

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

I hesitate to engage you on this, because you usually play dodge 'em rather than directly defending your views, but let me ask you this. How is your conception of value "enforced"? If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

Even more important, how do the pricing authorities even determine a price? What is the "value" of a ton of coal? How would they even guess without having market prices to look at?

You really don't wanna go there.

Why not? I always enjoy watching them tie themselves into logical knots.

 

[bripat9643]

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

I hesitate to engage you on this, because you usually play dodge 'em rather than directly defending your views, but let me ask you this. How is your conception of value "enforced"? If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

That is ridiculous. You are not limited by anything.

If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

It isn't a barter system. We use the division of labor so bartering isn't really feasible. Whatever is produced would be made available in the market and you would use labor credits to acquire what you needed from the market.

If you don't like the cost of something, don't buy it. Isn't that how it works now?

How would it "be made available to the market?" What market? There's only one seller: the government.

 

[bripat9643]

Price is something separate from value. Price is determined in the market. Your graph shows how irrational it can be.

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value? Do you like irrationality? Do you enjoy going to the gas station and seeing what the price of gas will be from day to day? Or food items at the grocery store?

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value?

How many hours of labor at how many different wage levels went into the gallon of gas I buy?
Or is every hour of every worker worth exactly the same amount?

Do you enjoy going to the gas station and seeing what the price of gas will be from day to day?

It does have its advantages over seeing the price of gas in East Germany....where the waiting list for a car was 12 years or more.

Or food items at the grocery store?

Yeah, you don't want to get me started on food in Commie countries.....how's that Maduro diet?

The price of food items in Venezuela is great. The only problem: no food.

FDR came up with farm subsidies. The left comes up with solutions the right wing has nothing but excuses.

Farm subsidies are the biggest boondoggle ever conceived.

we have an oversupply problem not an over demand problem.

The quickest way to resolve that is to allow some farmers to go bankrupt. Subsidies always create a surplus. They are the cause of the problem, not the solution.

 

[bripat9643]

Socialism is voluntary government servitude.
It might work halfass in a small homogenious country, but not in a large diverse country like the United States.

It never works anywhere, and there's nothing voluntary about it.

 

[Tehon]

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

I hesitate to engage you on this, because you usually play dodge 'em rather than directly defending your views, but let me ask you this. How is your conception of value "enforced"? If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

That is ridiculous. You are not limited by anything.

If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

It isn't a barter system. We use the division of labor so bartering isn't really feasible. Whatever is produced would be made available in the market and you would use labor credits to acquire what you needed from the market.

If you don't like the cost of something, don't buy it. Isn't that how it works now?

How would it "be made available to the market?" What market? There's only one seller: the government.

That is your conception. Mine is a free exchange of goods in a cooperative economic system.

Government doesn't need to be in our lives. It is now due to our competitive economic system.

 

[bripat9643]

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

I hesitate to engage you on this, because you usually play dodge 'em rather than directly defending your views, but let me ask you this. How is your conception of value "enforced"? If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

That is ridiculous. You are not limited by anything.

If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

It isn't a barter system. We use the division of labor so bartering isn't really feasible. Whatever is produced would be made available in the market and you would use labor credits to acquire what you needed from the market.

If you don't like the cost of something, don't buy it. Isn't that how it works now?

How would it "be made available to the market?" What market? There's only one seller: the government.

That is your conception. Mine is a free exchange of goods in a cooperative economic system.

Government doesn't need to be in our lives. It is now due to our competitive economic system.

How can there be "free exchange of goods" when the government is the only producer of goods and everyone works for the government? No one but the government has any goods to exchange, and everyone has to accept the price dictated by the government, which is purely arbitrary.

 

[danielpalos]

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value?

How many hours of labor at how many different wage levels went into the gallon of gas I buy?
Or is every hour of every worker worth exactly the same amount?

Do you enjoy going to the gas station and seeing what the price of gas will be from day to day?

It does have its advantages over seeing the price of gas in East Germany....where the waiting list for a car was 12 years or more.

Or food items at the grocery store?

Yeah, you don't want to get me started on food in Commie countries.....how's that Maduro diet?

The price of food items in Venezuela is great. The only problem: no food.

FDR came up with farm subsidies. The left comes up with solutions the right wing has nothing but excuses.

Farm subsidies are the biggest boondoggle ever conceived.

we have an oversupply problem not an over demand problem.

The quickest way to resolve that is to allow some farmers to go bankrupt. Subsidies always create a surplus. They are the cause of the problem, not the solution.

socialism causes an oversupply problem?

 

[danielpalos]

What is so unappealing about using labor time as a sole means of determining exchange value?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

I hesitate to engage you on this, because you usually play dodge 'em rather than directly defending your views, but let me ask you this. How is your conception of value "enforced"? If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

That is ridiculous. You are not limited by anything.

If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

It isn't a barter system. We use the division of labor so bartering isn't really feasible. Whatever is produced would be made available in the market and you would use labor credits to acquire what you needed from the market.

If you don't like the cost of something, don't buy it. Isn't that how it works now?

How would it "be made available to the market?" What market? There's only one seller: the government.

That is your conception. Mine is a free exchange of goods in a cooperative economic system.

Government doesn't need to be in our lives. It is now due to our competitive economic system.

How can there be "free exchange of goods" when the government is the only producer of goods and everyone works for the government? No one but the government has any goods to exchange, and everyone has to accept the price dictated by the government, which is purely arbitrary.

how do military command economics work?

 

[bripat9643]

The price of food items in Venezuela is great. The only problem: no food.

FDR came up with farm subsidies. The left comes up with solutions the right wing has nothing but excuses.

Farm subsidies are the biggest boondoggle ever conceived.

we have an oversupply problem not an over demand problem.

The quickest way to resolve that is to allow some farmers to go bankrupt. Subsidies always create a surplus. They are the cause of the problem, not the solution.

socialism causes an oversupply problem?

Yes, it often does. The USSR often had vast surpluses of things like condoms, but mostly it had shortages of stuff people actually wanted, like bread, eggs, beef, automobiles and televisions.

 

[bripat9643]

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

I hesitate to engage you on this, because you usually play dodge 'em rather than directly defending your views, but let me ask you this. How is your conception of value "enforced"? If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

It's unappealing because it squashes individual freedom. It denies the subjective nature of utility and personal preference.

That is ridiculous. You are not limited by anything.

If someone wants to trade something with someone else for a price that doesn't match your "intrinsic value" calculation, what happens? Are they arrested? Fined? What?

It isn't a barter system. We use the division of labor so bartering isn't really feasible. Whatever is produced would be made available in the market and you would use labor credits to acquire what you needed from the market.

If you don't like the cost of something, don't buy it. Isn't that how it works now?

How would it "be made available to the market?" What market? There's only one seller: the government.

That is your conception. Mine is a free exchange of goods in a cooperative economic system.

Government doesn't need to be in our lives. It is now due to our competitive economic system.

How can there be "free exchange of goods" when the government is the only producer of goods and everyone works for the government? No one but the government has any goods to exchange, and everyone has to accept the price dictated by the government, which is purely arbitrary.

how do military command economics work?

They work in the context of a market economy, and they don't work very well.