Zone1 Why do you need gods?

[Cardinal Carminative]

Morals evolved along with humans. Society is the largest influencer of morals.

Where you see some atheist conspiracy I see people evolving and realizing that gods are not necessary.

Even within Christianity God, himself, has evolved. He is no longer a single-tribe partisan who longs for burnt offerings and genocide in his holy name, now he loves EVERYONE. Literally everyone!

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Again why does an omniscient, omnipotent , immortal being need to create mortal, flawed beings for its companions?

If a god wants friendship and love and a real relationship then that god should create another omniscient, omnipotent immortal being at least then there would be parity. A mere mortal can never have parity with a god.

I suspect there is a logical rule against more than one omniscient, omnipotent being at a time. But point taken.

And even the most altruistic deeds are motivated by something that is of benefit to the doer.

I have always believed that. It was amazing in Philosophy class in undergrad when I discovered the concept of the Hedonistic Calculus and the idea that everyone is driven by a desire to increase pleasure or decrease pain (not in an all-day orgy type thing, but generally). At that point I started looking at everything around me and realized that even ALTRUISM makes the person doing the altruistic action FEEL GOOD, ergo it is rewarding the doer!

I therefore figured that the ONLY truly altruistic action is one you do while you absolutely hate doing it for the betterment of others. It cannot bring any pleasure or benefit or even relieve the suffering of the person doing the altruistic action! It must hurt and feel awful.

Ahhh, I miss Philosophy class. (My roommate was a philosophy major so I got to hear more than what I was getting from just my couple of semesters.)

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

I am talking about humans as well as God. By this philosophy, there is no altruism. Anywhere.

Arguably this is true. There may actually be no altruism.

According to Benthamist Hedonism people act in accordance with a need to either increase pleasure or decrease pain. They run the "hedonistic calculus" to figure out which actions will achieve this.

Feeling good about one's self is a "pleasure", so doing an altruistic deed which makes the doer feel good is, therefore, NOT purely altruistic. It is, indeed, serving to make the doer feel good.

It's an interesting argument to make and, at its extremes, seems to obviate the existence of "altruism" altogether.

 

[Meriweather]

Again why does an omniscient, omnipotent , immortal being need to create mortal, flawed beings for its companions?

People of faith believe while our physical bodies are indeed mortal, our spirits are eternal.

Is mankind for companionship? Scripture notes that we are made in the image and likeness of God. The first thing scripture teaches about God is that God is creator. While it may be on a much smaller scale, people are also creators--and we all create for a purpose. For a Supreme Creator to create more creators, I tend to think the purpose is greater than companionship.

 

[ding]

No, that's not what you said. You said matter and energy CREATE SPACETIME. So far the only reference you have provided was someone's random comment on a discussion thread on Research Gate and you wave your hands at other videos.

So far you have cited nothing of any authority to support the claim.

Let me know when you get around to supporting your claims.

Actually I said the presence of matter and energy create spacetime. The big bang (i.e. the creation of matter/energy from nothing) created spacetime, dummy. So, no. I didn't only reference someone's comment (which wasn't random at all).

 

[ding]

So you can't find it?

Got it.

Let me know if you DO find where Einstein said that.

I know it. You don't.

 

[ding]

no - the crime of deception includes all three desert religions ...

christianity, the desert religions are that claim tablets exist from the heavens etched with 10 commandments - bing worships - when no such tablets ever existed.

prove otherwise if not so - or remove them from your phony c bible.

That's nice.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

CAN YOU GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE'S RELIGIOUS FAITH HARMING OTHERS?

NFBW: Yes. You and your Catholic belief and Catholic police state, that a human life begins at conception, has caused undo and severe harm to Nancy Davis and her boyfriend in Baton Rouge Louisiana who is forced in that state to undergo the risk of full term pregnancy and forced birth in order to deliver a fetus that will die when it reaches the birth stage of it’s nine month lifespan.,

Davis said that she and her boyfriend were thrilled to learn about the pregnancy. But their hearts broke when they learned their child would never have a chance at survival.​

​

Louisiana Woman Being Forced To Carry Headless Fetus Says She's 'Carrying It To Bury It'

​

“It was an abnormal ultrasound,” Davis explained, “and they noticed the top of the baby’s head was missing and the skull was missing, the top of the skull was missing,” she explained.​

​

END2208241044

 

[ding]

You're disagreeing about something that was never implied by anyone but you.

Incorrect. You said...

I don't believe Karma itself is intelligent or cognizant either.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

I know it. You don't.

Sure, sure. That's why you can't find it in Einstein's writing.

If you don't care about your point then I don't care about your point.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Actually I said the presence of matter and energy create spacetime. The big bang (i.e. the creation of matter/energy from nothing) created spacetime, dummy. So, no. I didn't only reference someone's comment (which wasn't random at all).

I have yet to see an actual scientific citation to this point.

I'll keep waiting until you actually CARE about your own points.

 

[Meriweather]

Arguably this is true. There may actually be no altruism.

According to Benthamist Hedonism people act in accordance with a need to either increase pleasure or decrease pain. They run the "hedonistic calculus" to figure out which actions will achieve this.

Feeling good about one's self is a "pleasure", so doing an altruistic deed which makes the doer feel good is, therefore, NOT purely altruistic. It is, indeed, serving to make the doer feel good.

It's an interesting argument to make and, at its extremes, seems to obviate the existence of "altruism" altogether.

We read that the world, the creation was good. Therefore we expect nothing less than altruism. There is an old saying that whoever it was that discovered water, it wasn't a fish.

It could be we, as a whole, are so immersed in goodness and altruism we don't notice it unless it is absent--much the same as a fish does not notice water until it is absent.

 

[BackAgain]

I have yet to see an actual scientific citation to this point.

I'll keep waiting until you actually CARE about your own points.

Oh, Cardinal! I’d like to help out. But I’m not a physicist. I enjoy this field but staring in awe at things like the Discovery channel and NOVA only serves to whet my appetite. I don’t have a good scientific background.

So, here’s what I do. I read a lot. Books? Yeah. Some. Magazine articles? A few? Mostly though, I look for internet pieces. Some may be less reliable than others and with all I don’t know, it’s tough for me to distinguish the good scientific explanations from the poorer ones.

But this piece seems pretty worthwhile if you take the time to wade through the whole of it:

Ask Ethan: Is Spacetime Really A Fabric?

In General Relativity, even space and time themselves aren't what they seem.

www.forbes.com

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

So, here’s what I do. I read a lot. Books? Yeah. Some. Magazine articles? A few? Mostly though, I look for internet pieces. Some may be less reliable than others and with all I don’t know, it’s tough for me to distinguish the good scientific explanations from the poorer ones.

But this piece seems pretty worthwhile if you take the time to wade through the whole of it:

Ask Ethan: Is Spacetime Really A Fabric?

In General Relativity, even space and time themselves aren't what they seem.

www.forbes.com

I normally don't rely on Forbes as a source of scientific information and if you understand what you read you can easily summarize the key point Ding and I are discussing.

That being: does matter and energy CREATE spacetime. Not just does matter warp spacetime, but does matter and energy CREATE spacetime.

That's all I'm looking for...support for that claim. I honestly don't know either way, but so far no one has been able to point to an actual scientific source that isn't either a business publication, random discussion on a forum or someone's favorite video (offered without explanation).

Since no one seems to actually CARE about this point I guess I should care either. I'm just curious.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

We read that the world, the creation was good. Therefore we expect nothing less than altruism. There is an old saying that whoever it was that discovered water, it wasn't a fish.

It could be we, as a whole, are so immersed in goodness and altruism we don't notice it unless it is absent--much the same as a fish does not notice water until it is absent.

It doesn't feel like this, in any way, addresses what I wrote. Perhaps you can couch it in terms that relate to what I was talking about.

 

[BackAgain]

I normally don't rely on Forbes as a source of scientific information and if you understand what you read you can easily summarize the key point Ding and I are discussing.

That being: does matter and energy CREATE spacetime. Not just does matter warp spacetime, but does matter and energy CREATE spacetime.

That's all I'm looking for...support for that claim. I honestly don't know either way, but so far no one has been able to point to an actual scientific source that isn't either a business publication, random discussion on a forum or someone's favorite video (offered without explanation).

Since no one seems to actually CARE about this point I guess I should care either. I'm just curious.

My guess is that your question is but a subset of the entire question of how everything came to be.

Matter/energy/space/time.

Did the Big Bang create matter and energy into a pre-existing space time? Did the creation of matter and energy simultaneously and necessarily create the space-time in which matter and energy exist? Or did the creation of matter and energy, itself, then result in the formation of the very space and time in which matter and energy exists?

I find it fascinating. But it’s all above my pay grade.

 

[ding]

Sure, sure. That's why you can't find it in Einstein's writing.

If you don't care about your point then I don't care about your point.

If you don't want to believe that space and time are consequences of matter and energy, that's on you but that is exactly what general relativity says.

 

[ding]

I have yet to see an actual scientific citation to this point.

I'll keep waiting until you actually CARE about your own points.

It's called general relativity, dummy. Space and time are consequences of matter and energy.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

My guess is that your question is but a subset of the entire question of how everything came to be.

No my question is actually pretty simple. ding claimed that matter and energy create spacetime.

I was unfamiliar with that concept. I am aware that matter WARPS spacetime but I'm not sure that matter and energy CREATE spacetime.l

I find it fascinating. But it’s all above my pay grade.

I agree. I suspect it is also above Ding's pay grade which is why I'm asking him for an actual scientific citation and not his favorite video without explanation or some random guy's comments on a researchgate thread.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

If you don't want to believe that space and time are consequences of matter and energy, that's on you but that is exactly what general relativity says.

Just show me in a GR text where it says that. Thanks.

You keep saying it like it is obvious, which if it is, it will be explicitly stated in an actual scientific citation.

Thanks.