Why I dont post here

[Ravi]

Yep, and the right of return applies to converts, too, as much as Shog wishes it didn't.

 

[Charles_Main]

Poor Charles, stuck in the corner with rational Ravi.

Fine company if you ask me. I may not agree with you on everything, But I respect your opinions a lot more than MR childish name caller! If he wanted to be taken seriously you would think he would act more like an adult.

 

[Charles_Main]

wrong answer, bud.. MODERATES dont have a reason to favor either side. CLEARLY, you do and are no moderate.

Your right, moderates side with the majority of Both Jews and Palestinians. The ones that support the comprimse solution of 2 states based on the 67 borders. While Extreamist Jews would like to take all the West bank and Gaza, and Extreamist Palestinians want to get rid of Israel, wether by force, or through a single state solution that would eventually make the Jews a tiny minority in an Islamic Nation, and lead to them just getting out.

However feel free to keep saying you are the Moderate and I am just a racist. You could toss in some childish name calling if you like too.

 

[Rhys]

In faith he is, by blood he clearly is not. Like I said I think the problem is the common use of JEW to decribe Both a religion and a race. The Race being Hebrews.

A race is a contest between runners. A Jew is a member of a religion, and like all religions Judaism has a penumbra of ex-members. people with family connections, people with a soft spot for the old folks' religion and so on. I was brought up an Anglican myself, and but for the small problem that I cannot imagine what people mean by this word 'God' they all throw around so confidently, I'd be one still. All my attitudes, all my jokes, my whole value system are rooted in Anglicanism, and in that sense I'll be an Anglican till I die. Not so my children.

That does NOT mean that I belong to some fantasised Anglican 'race'. Admittedly, Judaism was once a tribal religion, but that was a very long time ago, and in between lies a very long period of proselyting all sorts of people from all over the place. The 'son of a Jewish mother' thing is one of those fossils you get in all religions: in any sane world, a Jew is someone committed to a specific religion.

In the 'thirties, alas, they didn't live in a sane world: as always when capitalism is under threat, any old intellectual hogwash people might accept was used to build up a lower-middle-class thuggery to save it - and in the German case it was this 'race' drivel so beloved of the zionists. People with a relation to Judaism like mine to Anglicanism - ex-believers, distant relatives, God-knows who - were swept up under this foul fantasy and murdered. Those who had long since got away to Palestine happily accepted this grotesque fantasy, demanding somewhere to do their racing in - and, sooner than take in the survivors, various states too big to be bribed willingly voted for this new ghetto. Very large numbers with nowhere else to go went where they could and accepted the necessary gobbledygook, which, since it was never analysed, came at last to seem 'normal'.

Why not base the Reichlette on Witchcraft or Phlogiston? They make as much - and as little - sense.

 

[José]

You know what, Rhys

I’ve already lost all hope to understand the mind of super patriotic american clowns.

The political thinking (if we can even call it that) of the typical super patriotic american clown is “screwed in the head”, it’s a schizophrenic political thinking because it divides racial dictatorships into two categories:

1) "bad" racial dictatorships (United States, Germany and South África)

2) "good" racial dictatorships (Israel)

Go figure...

 

[José]

Originally posted by Charles Main
Your right, moderates side with the majority of Both Jews and Palestinians.

Are you referring to the same palestinian majority Arafat said 9 times he could not betray by “legitimising” the ethnic cleansing of Western Palestine? The same majority that would totally ignore any such aggreement and keep on fighting for their right to live and move freely in their homeland?

Wake up and smell the coffee!!

Two state solution = betray the palestinian people

Originally posted by Charles Main
While Extreamist Jews would like to take all the West bank and Gaza, and Extreamist Palestinians want to get rid of Israel, wether by force, or through a single state solution that would eventually make the Jews a tiny minority in an Islamic Nation, and lead to them just getting out.

But now you’re contradicting yourself because you’ve stated in a previous post:

Not to mention that Jews never lived in the grand canyon, While they did live in the area of moderen day Isreal, did and have almost continuesly for 4000 years.

How could the so-called palestinian jews have lived in the Holy Land for so long when arabs made up the overwhelming majority of the population during the last 800 years?

Make up your mind, Charles:

EITHER palestinians are genocidal monsters who want to rid Palestine of Jews, at best, or kill them all, at worst, OR palestinian jews have a continous history in Palestine for the last 2000 years.

Choose one because BOTH statements cannot be true.

Originally posted by Charles Main
While Extreamist Jews would like to take all the West bank and Gaza, and Extreamist Palestinians want to get rid of Israel, wether by force, or through a single state solution that would eventually make the Jews a tiny minority in an Islamic Nation, and lead to them just getting out.

Do you mean “extremists” like Stauffenberg and so many other european “extremists”who saw your people being herded into the Warsaw Ghetto, just like Palestinians in Gaza today?

“Extremists” who thought the Nazi regime brought shame to Germany and advocated racial equality between Germans and Jews?

It’s ironic that Israel dedicated a whole memorial to those “extremists”. It’s called Yad Vashem.

Or are you referring to those american “extremists” who, almost a century ago, thought Indians should not be confined in reservations (awfully similar to the “arab reservation” known as Gaza) and should get some kind of compensation for their territorial losses?

Or maybe those younger “extremists” who advocated the right to vote for blacks and desegregation of the South?

Or do you mean those south african “extremists” who dared to say legalised racism was not “moderate” at all?

Well... learn something new everyday...

I didn’t know racism, segregation and apartheid were supported by “moderates” in this day and age and democracy and racial equality were “extremist stuff” in the 21th century.

Did you hear that, Shogun?

Let’s advocate the recreation of the Warsaw Ghetto and invite jillian and Chuck to be the first inhabitants...

Let’s take away all the cassinos from the Indians and resegregate the South.

Let’s recreate Transkei, Ciskei and all the other pseudo republics where blacks were kept and declare Mandela and Tutu honorary citizens of those Bantustans.

Let’s do all that so we can be “moderates” too, just like Chuck.

 

[editec]

wrong answer, bud.. MODERATES dont have a reason to favor either side. CLEARLY, you do and are no moderate.

Democracy may seem like a big scary jew hating beast to you but thats just because you know that it wont respect your RACIST standard.

I can certainly understand why you advocate for a single truly democratic representational goverment in the place some call Isreal and others call Palestine.

I think you are expecting a people, a people who are convinced that creating such a truly democratic nation would amount to mass suicide, to ignore the obvious fact that there one shitload of Palestinians who hate them (perhaps with just cause, I might add) enough to kill them.

You do understand that that is what the Isrealis think would happen to them, right?

Tell me that you understand that.

Even if you dont' believe that they are right about that outcome, please tell you you can at least understand that THAT is their point of view.

 

[Ravi]

1) "bad" racial dictatorships (United States, Germany and South África)

2) "good" racial dictatorships (Israel)

Go figure...

Maybe the problem is we just don't believe the USA and Israel are "racial dictatorships."

 

[José]

Originally posted by editec
I can certainly understand why you advocate for a single truly democratic representational goverment in the place some call Isreal and others call Palestine.

I think you are expecting a people, a people who are convinced that creating such a truly democratic nation would amount to mass suicide, to ignore the obvious fact that there one shitload of Palestinians who hate them (perhaps with just cause, I might add) enough to kill them.

You do understand that that is what the Isrealis think would happen to them, right?

Tell me that you understand that.

Even if you dont' believe that they are right about that outcome, please tell you you can at least understand that THAT is their point of view.

I can't speak for Shogun but since I advocate the same solution to this conflict I feel the question was also directed at me.

Of course I understand both the real and imaginary security concerns of the jewish people.

That's exactly why I don't support the traditional democratic model for the region of Palestine: majority rule but an international protectorate where both ethnic groups will enjoy limited national sovereignty at the federal leven under the supervision of the international community.

Since the right to live in Western Palestine is the NON-NEGOTIABLE CORE OF THE PALESTINIAN NATIONAL IDENTITY, some form of controlled, supervised unitary state is the only solution to that troubled land.

 

[editec]

A race is a contest between runners. A Jew is a member of a religion, and like all religions Judaism has a penumbra of ex-members. people with family connections, people with a soft spot for the old folks' religion and so on. I was brought up an Anglican myself, and but for the small problem that I cannot imagine what people mean by this word 'God' they all throw around so confidently, I'd be one still. All my attitudes, all my jokes, my whole value system are rooted in Anglicanism, and in that sense I'll be an Anglican till I die. Not so my children.

That is deep.

That does NOT mean that I belong to some fantasised Anglican 'race'. Admittedly, Judaism was once a tribal religion, but that was a very long time ago, and in between lies a very long period of proselyting all sorts of people from all over the place. The 'son of a Jewish mother' thing is one of those fossils you get in all religions: in any sane world, a Jew is someone committed to a specific religion.

Yeah, right.

Let me know when the ship is leaving for that world, would you?

The secular Jews of Germany thought they lived in a sane world. They were mistaken. That's a mistake they're not apt for forget having made anytime soon, I think.

In the 'thirties, alas, they didn't live in a sane world: as always when capitalism is under threat, any old intellectual hogwash people might accept was used to build up a lower-middle-class thuggery to save it - and in the German case it was this 'race' drivel so beloved of the zionists.

Some Zionists without doubt are enthocentric jerks. Some are just pragmatists who feel they might as well be Zionists since the others won't let them play in any of their reindeer games.

People with a relation to Judaism like mine to Anglicanism - ex-believers, distant relatives, God-knows who - were swept up under this foul fantasy and murdered.

Yup!

And some gentiles were swept under that same rug for objecting to that foul fantasy, too. Sadly not enough, but enough to inspire some of us never to forget them, either.

Those who had long since got away to Palestine happily accepted this grotesque fantasy, demanding somewhere to do their racing in - and, sooner than take in the survivors, various states too big to be bribed willingly voted for this new ghetto. Very large numbers with nowhere else to go went where they could and accepted the necessary gobbledygook, which, since it was never analysed, came at last to seem 'normal'.

When all the saints are sinners, then all the sinners saints.

Why not base the Reichlette on Witchcraft or Phlogiston? They make as much - and as little - sense.

If by the term "Reichlette" you are referring to Isreal, then no, Witchcraft or Philogiston (which I presume is some word for a different Palestine) really doesn't make sense. People can learn from history, they can forgive history, but they cannot forget it.

The Jews of Isreal cannot forget the holocaust, and the Palesinians cannot forget their more recent diaspora. They once lived in a place they think of a Palestine. Where is their home? Where are their olive groves?

That's the crux of the problem, isn't it?

Two victimized peoples squabbling over one land while we who are above the fray egg them on, or chastise them for finding themselves in that impossible position.

I try to imagine what might have happened if the Jews of Europe and the Arabs of Palestine could have found some way to become one people, a people in that single state solution that people like Shogun imagine the international community can forge for them, now.

It would have been a magnificent nation, folks.

The Palestinians were the most educated Arabs in the former Ottoman empire, you know?

Lost opportunity is never found.

We've got to work with what we've got on the ground, today.

We've GOT to imagine the point of view not only of the most rational Israelis and Palestinians, but of the most irrational of both sides, too, and we've got to find some way to accomodate all of them.

Let's remember what happened to the Israeli leader and the Egyptian one, too, who were peacemakers, shall we?

The moderates among the Palestinians and the Isrealis (and I believe they exist in numbers far larger than any of us are lead to believe) need the world's support.

Sadly this is not an age of moderation.

But THEY, the people of Isreal and the people of Palestine have GOT to be the people to make their peace.

The "international community" is the root source of their problem to begin with. Let's all try to remember, that, shall we?

NOBODY on either sides trust the international community to keep the peace or to protect their interests.

Why should they?

They're not damned fools.

 

[Shogun]

Your right, moderates side with the majority of Both Jews and Palestinians. The ones that support the comprimse solution of 2 states based on the 67 borders. While Extreamist Jews would like to take all the West bank and Gaza, and Extreamist Palestinians want to get rid of Israel, wether by force, or through a single state solution that would eventually make the Jews a tiny minority in an Islamic Nation, and lead to them just getting out.

However feel free to keep saying you are the Moderate and I am just a racist. You could toss in some childish name calling if you like too.

You dont speak for pals, bud.. I realize your chosen race status makes you feel superior enough to just KNOW what people think but arent pulling any shit that an Aryan didnt try.

EXTREMISTS don't believe in DEMOCRACY, sucker. just liek you. Lets allow everyone a vote and see what happens, buddy. Your "oh my god jews wont be superior anymore" fear is about as impressive as Strom Thurmans.




Indeed, maybe you could be ironic as fuck again and complain about namecalling.. by namecalling.

 

[Shogun]

Fine company if you ask me. I may not agree with you on everything, But I respect your opinions a lot more than MR childish name caller! If he wanted to be taken seriously you would think he would act more like an adult.

Why don't you go ahead and tell her WHAT MAKES YOU JEWISH, dude.. your faith or your ETHNICITY?



hey, demonize me again and cry that the sky is falling, chicken litter. Ravi may be too stupid to see how you avoid the tough questions but you and I both know how bad you are being PWNED on this issue...

 

[Ravi]

It's not a tough question, it's a stupid an pointless one that does nothing more than highlight your own racist tendencies.

 

[Shogun]

THATS your retort? calling ME the racist while rationalizing for israel what you cannot rationalize for any other ethnicity?




this is why your input is so CUTE ravi.

 

[Rhys]

You know what, Rhys

I’ve already lost all hope to understand the mind of super patriotic american clowns.

The political thinking (if we can even call it that) of the typical super patriotic american clown is “screwed in the head”, it’s a schizophrenic political thinking because it divides racial dictatorships into two categories:

1) "bad" racial dictatorships (United States, Germany and South África)

2) "good" racial dictatorships (Israel)

Go figure...

Worse, I think, José: they regard the fact that the European Jews were shockingly treated as a REASON for them to go and treat as badly some other people who never did them any harm at all, then call those ill-treated Semites anti-Semitic for resisting racist oppression. They are a remarkable folk, those pro-zionists, probably extra-terrestrial.

 

[Rhys]

If by the term "Reichlette" you are referring to Isreal, then no, Witchcraft or Philogiston (which I presume is some word for a different Palestine) really doesn't make sense. People can learn from history, they can forgive history, but they cannot forget it.

The Jews of Isreal cannot forget the holocaust, and the Palesinians cannot forget their more recent diaspora. They once lived in a place they think of a Palestine. Where is their home? Where are their olive groves?

That's the crux of the problem, isn't it?

If the zionists were saying (as some did, in the early days), 'Oh God, this is awful; we are forced to it, but we shall put it right', I could have some sympathy. In fact, the politicians and propagandists strike grossly self-righteous attitudes, and lie all the time about the history of both the territory and their take-over.

Phlogiston was an imagined element which early scientists conjured up to explain fire; it resembles the concept 'race' in that there is no evidence for its existence.

Two victimized peoples squabbling over one land while we who are above the fray egg them on, or chastise them for finding themselves in that impossible position.

I try to imagine what might have happened if the Jews of Europe and the Arabs of Palestine could have found some way to become one people, a people in that single state solution that people like Shogun imagine the international community can forge for them, now.

It would have been a magnificent nation, folks.

The Palestinians were the most educated Arabs in the former Ottoman empire, you know?

Lost opportunity is never found..

The problem here, editec, is that you are taking the two as somehow equal, in just the way we are all trained to do. In fact ONE has all the wealth and power, a huge propaganda machine, a very efficient censorship mechanism in AIPAC (which has got me banned from many a discusssion board, incidentally) and above all, enormous subsidies and total diplomatic support from the one remaining superpower. All things are possible, always, but a proper settlement here only when the US stops supporting the most extremely fanatical nazis left on earth and people can begin to talk.

We've got to work with what we've got on the ground, today.

We've GOT to imagine the point of view not only of the most rational Israelis and Palestinians, but of the most irrational of both sides, too, and we've got to find some way to accomodate all of them.

Let's remember what happened to the Israeli leader and the Egyptian one, too, who were peacemakers, shall we?

The moderates among the Palestinians and the Isrealis (and I believe they exist in numbers far larger than any of us are lead to believe) need the world's support.

Sadly this is not an age of moderation..

I think that, first, those with the power to act must listen to those who have the support of the majority in their own community. On all the evidence, Palestine is represented by Hamas. Just as the 'extremes' in Northern Ireland had to negotiate before peace was possible, so it is in Palestine/Israel. Colonialist games of deciding who is 'moderate' enough to be allowed to speak won't work, not ever.

But THEY, the people of Isreal and the people of Palestine have GOT to be the people to make their peace.

The "international community" is the root source of their problem to begin with. Let's all try to remember, that, shall we?

NOBODY on either sides trust the international community to keep the peace or to protect their interests.

Why should they?

They're not damned fools.

The 'International Community' can only guarantee a peace reached between those involved. If the US would cease to meddle, this might be possible, especially with EU help. At the moment, the occupiers' propaganda dominates to such an extent that nothing is possible.

 

[Shogun]

I can certainly understand why you advocate for a single truly democratic representational goverment in the place some call Isreal and others call Palestine.

I think you are expecting a people, a people who are convinced that creating such a truly democratic nation would amount to mass suicide, to ignore the obvious fact that there one shitload of Palestinians who hate them (perhaps with just cause, I might add) enough to kill them.

You do understand that that is what the Isrealis think would happen to them, right?

Tell me that you understand that.

Even if you dont' believe that they are right about that outcome, please tell you you can at least understand that THAT is their point of view.

Well, you know what? I dont really give a fuck if jews think it would be mass suicide. WHY? Because whitey thought the same goddamn thing and here we are a better nation for our EQUALITY. Palis woulnd't HATE them anymore than BLACKS HATE WHITE PEOPLE now that we dont keep them in the fucking cotton field. White plantation owners made that same fear their abiding reason to perpetuate racism in the south 100 years after the Emancipation Proclamation. You'll have to excuse me for not giving a fuck about excuses that perpetuate the same shit in the mid east.

muslims didn't create the holocuast. And they sure as fuck should pay the price for some mass PTSD.


I understand the pints of view. Hell, I UNDERSTAND the reason Strom Thurman filibustered, Wallace stood his ground, and germans boycotted jews in germany. But that, in no way shape or form validates or even comes CLOSE to making me rationlize the racist bullshit. This is not a "do what I say not as I do" moment. If you cant fathom racism for Aryans, and I sure as fuck dont, then you cant for jews.. which provides all these pathetic ass scarlet A's from mental pussies who have nothing else but shit talking to reach for in the face of the RACISM that they know damn well is evident.

 

[Charles_Main]

What ever Shog, White Americans never faced the possiblity of all of the sudden becoming a small minority in the Nations. If a single state solution is ever brought about, that is exactly what the Jews in Isreal would face. Your comparisons to the US have no meaning because it is an entirely different situation. The fact that you will not even admit that, is why so many people think you simply do not care what would happen to the Jews in Israel.

 

[José]

Aside for Rhys (totally off topic, skip it if you don’t share my interest in celtic languages, peoples and culture)

Rhys

I must confess my fascination with your native language. Perhaps as a native speaker of Welsh you don’t know how your idiom is seen by outsiders so I would like to share my impression with you.

The first thing that strikes a foreign is the lack of any familiar reference in Celtic languages, I know there are many anglicisms that were incorporated but I’m referring to the native words of the language. Even though it is a Indo European language there seems to be no link with the two branches of Indo European languages most of us are familiar with: the Latin and the Germanic branches.

So you can’t even begin to imagine the feeling of strangeness your tongue provokes in most of us and I say this in a positive way because out of this strangeness it produces comes part of our fascination, at least in my case. Besides the place occupied by vowels and consonants are also so diferent from anything we are used to see.

Twll dîn pob Sais!

Byddan nhw ddim ond yn cysgu pan fydd angen.

But this is only part of the story, Rhys. When we shift our attention from the language itself and realise that we are in front of the historical evolution of the mother tongue of Druids and all the other elements of celtic society our mind is simply blown away.

The original celtic peoples are not some obscure group of humans who lived in the past like so many others because Asterix brought the ancient Celts, their society and life style back to life. So when we see your mother tongue we are immediately transported to the ancient environment were the original celtic language was spoken.

So it’s a fascinating experience to see any text written in your language, Rhys, and I can’t even fathom how fascinating would be to hear a native speaker.

I sincerely hope the Welsh people succeds in reviving the Welsh language completely because even though it is associated with welsh nationalism, it belongs in reality to the entire world. It is part of the cultural heritage of our species and it would be a crime to allow not only the Welsh but all the other celtic languages still alive to die out.

 

[José]

Originally posted by editec
Two victimized peoples squabbling over one land while we who are above the fray egg them on, or chastise them for finding themselves in that impossible position.

This line clearly shows your inability to see the supremacist nature of what is going on in Palestine. A conflict between equals would be english and french settlers disputing Canadá or a territorial dispute between América and Rússia over an uninhabited piece of ice in Antarctica.

In palestine we have an ethnic group keeping the natives of the land in ethnic enclaves, a group of human beings denying another group their right to live in their homeland.

What’s the difference between:

1) – An Indian being denied his right to leave the reservation in America during the first half of the last century.

1) – A black South African prevented from leaving Transkei, Ciskei or any other pseudo republic set up by the south african government.

1) – A palestinian living in Gaza, born in pre-Israel Ashkhelon, being prevented from returning to his place of origin?

Absolutely none.

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge on political science will immediately recognise the three aforementioned states as racial dictatorships.

Originally posted by editec
We've got to work with what we've got on the ground, today.

We've GOT to imagine the point of view not only of the most rational Israelis and Palestinians, but of the most irrational of both sides, too, and we've got to find some way to accomodate all of them.

Rationalisation and sugar coating of legalised racism in Palestine.

Originally posted by editec
The moderates among the Palestinians and the Isrealis (and I believe they exist in numbers far larger than any of us are lead to believe) need the world's support.

Sadly this is not an age of moderation.

Even more rationalisation and sugar coating of legalised racism in Palestine.

The problem here is that since the end of WWII Jews enjoy the status of the super victims of human History and because of this you’re willing to allow them to do in Palestine something you would never accept in America.

Stop being afraid to say racism is racism. Stop using words like “moderation”, “rational” to embellish what amounts to racial discrimination. Don’t be afraid to say it is wrong to keep the people of palestine locked up behind ethnic enclaves.