Why is abortion the way of the world?

[Votto]

25 Cultures That Practiced Human Sacrifice

Because historically child sacrifice was the status quo

It's just who we are.

And it is for the same reason, which is material gain. Most women have abortions due to financial concerns. Likewise, pretty much all ancient religions sacrificed their children to the gods for such things as victory at war or fertile crops, etc.

No. I tend to think it is because the Ruling Class are big believers in eugenics. Sanger, Hitler, and Hillary are big on eugenics.

Looking at history, it appears that this is the human condition.

That is the point.

 

[basquebromance]

some say government should not have a say in abortion. they dont know how right they are. claiming ignorance over who has human rights is horrifying. its like claiming to be God.

 

[basquebromance]

the abortion dispute is not just a policy dispute. its about preventing the death of innocent victims. the fact that the oppressor does not recognize the victim as a person, doesnt mean we have no obligation toward the victim, however invisible he remains!

 

[Cecilie1200]

Because it's something Taz wants to do. If he/she wanted to beat children, he/she would be insisting that the fact that the laws don't completely stop such behavior, there shouldn't be any laws at all.

That really is not the crux of that statement and there really is a problem there. Something that the pro-life position must address (and does in a few ways).

If abortion becomes illegal do you prosecute women that have an abortion? If you do, then how do you do so or even know that it was an abortion and not a miscarriage? If not, then why make it illegal in the first place?

Those are, IMHO, real questions that the pro-life position has to struggle with as there is not a good answer to them both even if there is a best answer.

That really IS the crux of the discussion I was in, but thank you so much for inserting yourself and telling me how I "have to" be having a completely different discussion.

In MY never-humble opinion, you need to ASK me if I would like to discuss what the laws should be in the event of an abortion ban, not TELL me that I HAVE to discuss it.

No, I really don't have to ask you anything. That is the beauty of freedom - I can demand that answer from you and you can continue to not give it

But in the end, 'you' was less specific and more generalized to anyone holding a pro life position. The lot of you can ignore those questions to your hearts content but that is not how you change minds and policy will not move without changing minds.

Yes, well, I did make the silly assumption that you would actually want an answer, rather than simply wanting to issue useless demands and be told to piss off. I do beg your pardon for assuming sensibility where it was not.

It isn't that we "ignore" your questions. It's that we recognize that A) they aren't anywhere close to being issues needing resolution, since abortion is nowhere close to being universally banned, B) that the people who ask those questions are NOT doing so because getting the answers will change anything, but are merely doing so as a deflection, and C) that even if we consented to discuss those issues, the people asking wouldn't be listening to the answers seriously, anyway.

I love how Old Lady's refusal to answer the ridiculous questions you posed is a "deflection" but her posing questions which you find uncomfortable and have no answers for, is her being demanding, and you're not going to play.

There isn't a single legal or moral basis for banning abortion. Forcing women to bear children they don't want and can't afford, will never pass muster with the Supreme Court.

Every jurisdiction which has banned abortion, has moved on to question and place under suspicion all women who have miscarriages. Especially those jurisdictions, where women are prosecuted for abortion. Especially if the miscarriage is deemed "fortuitous". Where there were circumstances where the impending birth was less than a "blessed event".

The whole notion that the only purpose of sex is for procreation is false, and that those who don't want children, should remain celebate. Given that more than half the women who have abortions are either married or in a committed relationship with the father of the child, telling married couples sleeping in the same bed not to have sex is ridiculous.

According to the drug companies who manufacture them, birth control pills are 99.9% effective when taken "optimally". That mean's taking the pill at exactly the same time of day, in the exact same manner, every single day, while healthy. Missing the time of day, even by a hour, or two, can lower the effectiveness of the pill. If you become ill, drugs for your illness may interact negatively with your BC and reduce your effectiveness, so that in the real world, the actual failure rate of birth control pills, is 9%.

Reproductive health and abortion statistics show that of the 90% of women who are married or cohabitting with their male partner (the women who are the most sexually active, and most at risk of getting pregnant in a given year) are using birth control. 68% of these high risk women are using consistently their birth control and correctly, and still 5% of these women who are living moral lives and taking birth control very seriously, will have an unintended pregnancy.

Of the other 32% of women who are married or cohabitting, most are using birth control, but not in the optimal manner, their rate of pregnancy will me much higher, so much so that the majority of women having abortions fall into the category of "married or in a committed relationship". An even larger percentage already have more than one child.

Contraceptive Use in the United States

Conservatives need to stop lying about who and why women are getting abortions.

I like how you're "triumphantly" proclaiming how unfair I was to a poster who wasn't even involved in the conversation thread you quoted. What the actual fuck are you babbling about . . THIS time?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Just so we're clear, let me elaborate exactly what "lies" the right is telling about abortion that have Dragon and every other dementia-ridden old bat around here in a tizzy because it cuts into the heartstring-tugging they want to do.

"The reasons patients gave for having an abortion underscored their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. The three most common reasons—each cited by three-fourths of patients—were concern for or responsibility to other individuals; the inability to afford raising a child; and the belief that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents. Half said they did not want to be a single parent or were having problems with their husband or partner."

So in other words, most women having abortions are doing so for convenience: because they just don't want to have a baby right now.

More specifically, these are the "lies" we're telling about late-term abortions.

"Women aged 20–24 were more likely than those aged 25–34 to have a later abortion (odds ratio, 2.7), and women who discovered their pregnancy before eight weeks’ gestation were less likely than others to do so (0.1). Later abortion recipients experienced logistical delays (e.g., difficulty finding a provider and raising funds for the procedure and travel costs), which compounded other delays in receiving care. Most women seeking later abortion fit at least one of five profiles: They were raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous." (Nulliparous means "having never given birth".)

So in other words, women get late-term abortions because they just didn't bother to do it sooner, or because they decided their relationships with their men were too bad to have a baby with them, after all, and changed their minds.

Does that about cover the eeeeevil right-wing lies the left wants to dispute so we'll understand that all abortions are ACTUALLY requested by women who are raped by their fathers and are now in eminent danger of death from the mere existence of the fetus? Did I leave anything out?

 

[koshergrl]

25 Cultures That Practiced Human Sacrifice

Because historically child sacrifice was the status quo

It's just who we are.

And it is for the same reason, which is material gain. Most women have abortions due to financial concerns. Likewise, pretty much all ancient religions sacrificed their children to the gods for such things as victory at war or fertile crops, etc.

Because Satan has dominion right now.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Conservatives need to stop lying about who and why women are getting abortions.

No problem.

Done.

Now, when are you fucking leftardz going to stop lying, denying and hiding the fact that legalized abortion denies the Constitutional rights of the children being killed?

Soon?

As soon as they start killing "children", we'll object. That has never happened. No child has been killed.

And we know that because you absolutely REFUSE to use that word, and if you don't say it, it isn't real!

 

[Cecilie1200]

Abortion isn't the way of the world.

It's the way of the liberty-minded world.

Muslim theocracies, third world hellholes and Trump states try to ban abortion. The commonality among them is a hatred of liberty.

So you are all for liberty, once the child somehow survives your murderous attemps.

Got it.

Yeah, and you're all for letting the baby die of hunger, exposure, or disease once you have forced the unwilling mother to bear it.

Deflection

That's not a deflection, that's precisely the point. You don't want to pay to education these children, or to feed them. It's not rich women who are having abortions. 80% of women having abortions live at or below the poverty line. You're forcing women to have babies which will require extensive social assistance to raise.

"That's the point. You REFUSE to give us more tax money, so it's YOUR fault we have to kill babies . . . oops, I mean , they aren't babies because I refuse to say they are!"

 

[Cecilie1200]

Most pro-lifers forget to mention it is personhood they are pro because that means they would have to define what it means to be a person and that inevitably leads back to religion​

Still false - that is the pro choice argument trying to force its precepts on a pro life position. A pro life position recognized the sanctity of HUMAN life. Pro choice wants to divide that human life up into a part that is expendable and part that is not.

And none of that requires a religious precept.

A fertilized egg maybe human but every other cell in my body is also human. Why give one cell more legal rights than any cell?

A fertilised egg (zygote) may only be one cell in size but ulike all the other celks in "your body, " a zygote is a complete organism.

Biology 101 stuff right there.

A zygote is not a "complete organizism". It's only just begun to develop. It's not alive, has no heartbeat, and cannot survive outside its host. It's cells aren't multi-functional, and they aren't maintaining life processes.

Organism dictionary definition | organism defined

Sorry, Gregora Mendel, but when you "informed" us that a zygote is not a "complete organizism [sic]" because it's only begun to develop and doesn't have all these qualities that you're just SURE, in your "brilliance" and "education" about biology, are necessary to be an organism, and then produced a link to a definition you just KNOW proved you right . . . did you actually READ the definition first?

'Cause here's what it actually says:

"The definition of an organism is a creature such as a plant, animal or a single-celled life form, or something that has interdependent parts and that is being compared to a living creature."

So what your post basically says is, "A zygote isn't an organism because . . . IT FITS THE DEFINITION I'M LINKING."

 

[koshergrl]

25 Cultures That Practiced Human Sacrifice

Because historically child sacrifice was the status quo

It's just who we are.

And it is for the same reason, which is material gain. Most women have abortions due to financial concerns. Likewise, pretty much all ancient religions sacrificed their children to the gods for such things as victory at war or fertile crops, etc.

Lucifer is The Lord of this World until after The Battle of Armageddon, and a couple other end times battles at which some point The Second Coming Occurs, and Jesus dethrones Lucifer, and takes back The Throne and Crown of Adam which was lost during the whole Garden of Eden fiasco.

Until this occurs, people will be selfish and wicked, and resist all attempts at protecting, respecting, and revering life.

I think you now have your answer. The 'pro-life' crowd are conflated with religions in many minds, mine included. Once religion is taken out of the equation, science and reason are allowed to decide the issue and abortion is treated like any other human/social issue.

Yes, let's talk about how atheist countries have historically *dealt* with the *issue* of population control...

"According to the U.S. Department of State’s Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 2016, Jinlin province further requires family planning officials to “promptly report” unauthorized pregnancies. While Guangdong has removed references to “remedial measures” in the province-level ordinance, the language has been inserted into local municipal ordinances. The State Department has also found that even in provinces without explicit requirements to terminate unauthorized pregnancies, local family planning officials continue to strongly coerce women to submit to abortion.

"In one case reported by the Chinese government-funded media outlet Sixth Tone, a woman in Guangdong was forced to abort her child at six months after her government employer threatened her with job loss and steep fines.

"Several provinces still mandate employers to report, sanction, demote, deny promotions to, or even terminate employees who are discovered having more than two children. In many provinces, regulations deny violators access to financial assistance for pre-natal or childbirth expenses that they would have otherwise been entitled to."

Forced Abortion Still Mandated Under China’s “Planned Birth” Laws - PRI

"But the designation of specific conditions as inherited, and the desire to eliminate such illnesses or handicaps from the population, generally reflected the scientific and medical thinking of the day in Germany and elsewhere.

"Nazi Germany was not the first or only country to sterilize people considered "abnormal." Before Hitler, the United States led the world in forced sterilizations. Between 1907 and 1939, more than 30,000 people in twenty-nine states were sterilized, many of them unknowingly or against their will, while they were incarcerated in prisons or institutions for the mentally ill. Nearly half the operations were carried out in California. Advocates of sterilization policies in both Germany and the United States were influenced by eugenics. This sociobiological theory took Charles Darwin's principle of natural selection and applied it to society. Eugenicists believed the human race could be improved by controlled breeding.

"Still, no nation carried sterilization as far as Hitler's Germany. The forced sterilizations began in January 1934, and altogether an estimated 300,000 to 400,000 people were sterilized under the law. A diagnosis of "feeblemindedness" provided the grounds in the majority of cases, followed by schizophrenia and epilepsy. The usual method of sterilization was vasectomy and ligation of ovarian tubes of women. Irradiation (x-rays or radium) was used in a small number of cases. Several thousand people died as a result of the operations, women disproportionately because of the greater risks of tubal ligation."

Forced Sterilization — United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

"At the Nuremberg trials, the 1948 RuSHA trial indicted 14 Nazis for “encouraging and compelling abortions” for women whose children were not considered “racially valuable” – and a government-enforced policy of "mandatory abortions" is still supported by white supremacists today.

“Even if it be assumed that all [Nazi] abortions were voluntary, they still constitute a crime,” Associate Counsel Harold Neely said at the Nuremberg Trials. Prosecutors classified abortion under any circumstances as a “crime against humanity.” One of the defendants even admitted it constituted “a special violation against life.”

"The threat of forced abortion and sterilization was a fact of life for female members of disfavored groups living under Nazi occupation."

Forced abortion should be remembered as a Nazi crime: Holocaust panel

 

[Cecilie1200]

Nothing divine, lol. Just kill em right.

It's just so hard to target the little suckers though.....

A great many of them die naturally after conception and before implantation.

If it is your argument is that it is ok to kill people because many of them will die naturally anyway. . .

Let's follow that to its logical conclusion.

Shall we?

No it's not my argument at all. Fact is a good percent of those zygote never take and never become human beings. Why would that fact make you think it's ok to kill people?

Fact is those zygotes already ARE human beings.

Until you can grasp that fact, there is no sense in bickering about the rest.

An egg isn't a chicken, an acorn isn't an oak tree, and a zygote isn't a human being no matter how hard you pound your head against the wall and demand that it be so.

"A zygote isn't a human being because I don't want it to be, and look at all these utterly unrelated and not-even-remotely similar life forms i can name which prove it isn't because . . . REASONS."

 

[Cecilie1200]

Still false - that is the pro choice argument trying to force its precepts on a pro life position. A pro life position recognized the sanctity of HUMAN life. Pro choice wants to divide that human life up into a part that is expendable and part that is not.

And none of that requires a religious precept.

A fertilized egg maybe human but every other cell in my body is also human. Why give one cell more legal rights than any cell?

A fertilised egg (zygote) may only be one cell in size but ulike all the other celks in "your body, " a zygote is a complete organism.

Biology 101 stuff right there.

A zygote is not a "complete organizism". It's only just begun to develop. It's not alive, has no heartbeat, and cannot survive outside its host. It's cells aren't multi-functional, and they aren't maintaining life processes.

Organism dictionary definition | organism defined

So Planned Parenthood is what? Wrong, when they say a zygote is an organism?

Why should I take your word over theirs?

Also, what about the dictionaries and other references that support Planned Parenthood's conclusion and not yours?

A zygote is an organism but it's not a "complete organism". It lacks the ability to sustain its own life, which a complete organism is capable of doing.

Do your own research. I did.

Oh, okay, so what you're NOW saying is, "Damn it, all the evidence contradicts me AGAIN, so I'll just invent a brand-new standard out of nothing and say I win because it doesn't meet THAT."

 

[koshergrl]

The left's vision of "community" control and education of children has a noble past...
"In his autobiography, Frederick Douglass claimed that in the part of Maryland where he was born: "to part children from their mothers at a very early age. Frequently, before the child has reached its twelfth month, its mother is taken from it, and hired out on some farm a considerable distance off, and the child is placed under the care of an old woman, too old for field labor."


Slave Childhood

 

[Chuz Life]

I still believe the belief that a fertilized egg is somehow equivalent to a full grown adult is based mostly on a religious belief

That is easy enough to get past.

All you have to do is accept the fact that (at the very least biologically) all human beings are equally human beings, regardless of their age, sex, race, creed, maladys or stage of development.

Human beings do not MORPH out of one organism that is NOT a human being and into an organism that IS a human being.

While everything you say is true you overlook the fact that we, and probably every society that ever existed, do not treat every human equally.

Thank you for the first part. I agree on the second part. However, it is not equal treatment that we are seeking. At least not in every respect. So far as I Know, nobody is fighting for a human fetus to have the right to vote or sign.a contract. Just, a simple protection against institutionalized manslaughter would be nice.

We are forever homo sapiens but we do morph from zygote to embryo to fetus to baby to toddler to youth to adult to senior citizen and we recognize that there are fundamental differences between them.

Except, we Human beings do not morph.

At least not in the biological sense, we don't.

Human beings grow, mature and develop continually through cell division. Not metamorphosis.

 

[alang1216]

25 Cultures That Practiced Human Sacrifice

Because historically child sacrifice was the status quo

It's just who we are.

And it is for the same reason, which is material gain. Most women have abortions due to financial concerns. Likewise, pretty much all ancient religions sacrificed their children to the gods for such things as victory at war or fertile crops, etc.

Lucifer is The Lord of this World until after The Battle of Armageddon, and a couple other end times battles at which some point The Second Coming Occurs, and Jesus dethrones Lucifer, and takes back The Throne and Crown of Adam which was lost during the whole Garden of Eden fiasco.

Until this occurs, people will be selfish and wicked, and resist all attempts at protecting, respecting, and revering life.

I think you now have your answer. The 'pro-life' crowd are conflated with religions in many minds, mine included. Once religion is taken out of the equation, science and reason are allowed to decide the issue and abortion is treated like any other human/social issue.

Yes, let's talk about how atheist countries have historically *dealt* with the *issue* of population control...

"According to the U.S. Department of State’s Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 2016, Jinlin province further requires family planning officials to “promptly report” unauthorized pregnancies. While Guangdong has removed references to “remedial measures” in the province-level ordinance, the language has been inserted into local municipal ordinances. The State Department has also found that even in provinces without explicit requirements to terminate unauthorized pregnancies, local family planning officials continue to strongly coerce women to submit to abortion.

"In one case reported by the Chinese government-funded media outlet Sixth Tone, a woman in Guangdong was forced to abort her child at six months after her government employer threatened her with job loss and steep fines.

"Several provinces still mandate employers to report, sanction, demote, deny promotions to, or even terminate employees who are discovered having more than two children. In many provinces, regulations deny violators access to financial assistance for pre-natal or childbirth expenses that they would have otherwise been entitled to."

Forced Abortion Still Mandated Under China’s “Planned Birth” Laws - PRI

"But the designation of specific conditions as inherited, and the desire to eliminate such illnesses or handicaps from the population, generally reflected the scientific and medical thinking of the day in Germany and elsewhere.

"Nazi Germany was not the first or only country to sterilize people considered "abnormal." Before Hitler, the United States led the world in forced sterilizations. Between 1907 and 1939, more than 30,000 people in twenty-nine states were sterilized, many of them unknowingly or against their will, while they were incarcerated in prisons or institutions for the mentally ill. Nearly half the operations were carried out in California. Advocates of sterilization policies in both Germany and the United States were influenced by eugenics. This sociobiological theory took Charles Darwin's principle of natural selection and applied it to society. Eugenicists believed the human race could be improved by controlled breeding.

"Still, no nation carried sterilization as far as Hitler's Germany. The forced sterilizations began in January 1934, and altogether an estimated 300,000 to 400,000 people were sterilized under the law. A diagnosis of "feeblemindedness" provided the grounds in the majority of cases, followed by schizophrenia and epilepsy. The usual method of sterilization was vasectomy and ligation of ovarian tubes of women. Irradiation (x-rays or radium) was used in a small number of cases. Several thousand people died as a result of the operations, women disproportionately because of the greater risks of tubal ligation."

Forced Sterilization — United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

"At the Nuremberg trials, the 1948 RuSHA trial indicted 14 Nazis for “encouraging and compelling abortions” for women whose children were not considered “racially valuable” – and a government-enforced policy of "mandatory abortions" is still supported by white supremacists today.

“Even if it be assumed that all [Nazi] abortions were voluntary, they still constitute a crime,” Associate Counsel Harold Neely said at the Nuremberg Trials. Prosecutors classified abortion under any circumstances as a “crime against humanity.” One of the defendants even admitted it constituted “a special violation against life.”

"The threat of forced abortion and sterilization was a fact of life for female members of disfavored groups living under Nazi occupation."

Forced abortion should be remembered as a Nazi crime: Holocaust panel

I don't think anyone should be forced to have an abortion. Period. BTW I think both these countries did have a religion, a cult of personality of Hitler and Mao.

 

[alang1216]

Except, we Human beings do not morph.

At least not in the biological sense, we don't.

Human beings grow, mature and develop continually through a cell division. Not metamorphosis.

Maybe you need to expand you thinking beyond just the biological? Into the social maybe? I'd say the difference between an egg and an adult is a major metamorphosis.

 

[alang1216]

The left's vision of "community" control and education of children has a noble past...
"In his autobiography, Frederick Douglass claimed that in the part of Maryland where he was born: "to part children from their mothers at a very early age. Frequently, before the child has reached its twelfth month, its mother is taken from it, and hired out on some farm a considerable distance off, and the child is placed under the care of an old woman, too old for field labor."


Slave Childhood

How is this the left's vision? Do you really think slave owners were progressive?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Except, we Human beings do not morph.

At least not in the biological sense, we don't.

Human beings grow, mature and develop continually through a cell division. Not metamorphosis.

Maybe you need to expand you thinking beyond just the biological? Into the social maybe? I'd say the difference between an egg and an adult is a major metamorphosis.

After all, Chuz, as Alexandria Occasional Cortex says, “I think there’s a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.” And clearly, she's the intellectual leader for leftists.

 

[SaxxyBlues]

Trying to stop abortion on a forum?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Trying to stop abortion on a forum?

No, dear, I realize that this is probably beyond your reasoning capacities, but forums are for TALKING. So what we're trying to do on a forum is TALK about abortion. 'Cause, you know, communication 'n' shit. Sorry, that probably had too many letters in it for you.