Why is it always Muslims - retry

[Osomir]

you are confusing islam DURING the lifetime of Muhummad with ISLAM as it developed after his death------as determined by the SCHOLARS OF ISLAM Muhummad made treaties and alliances DURING his lifetime----he had no
other way of playing the game------his followers moved ahead and developed the "religion" according to that which they
claimed and still claim is -------KORANIC. Are you accusing
the koranic scholars of the past 1300 years of LYING?-----its a different religion?

A couple of things:

1.) You are acting as if the Quranic scholars of the past 1300 years agree with each other which has never happened in the history of Islam.

2.) I would agree that many practices of Islam have evolved over time. The introduction of Shariah law sets alone was a major change that didn't exist during Muhammad's time. the problem is with your dialogue here is that there is immense diversity within these areas whereas you keep treating it as a single entity. Once again Islam is not the monolith that you are suggesting it is and never has been.

3.) You still haven't provided any sources to support your theological claims.

 

[irosie91]

you are confusing islam DURING the lifetime of Muhummad with ISLAM as it developed after his death------as determined by the SCHOLARS OF ISLAM Muhummad made treaties and alliances DURING his lifetime----he had no
other way of playing the game------his followers moved ahead and developed the "religion" according to that which they
claimed and still claim is -------KORANIC. Are you accusing
the koranic scholars of the past 1300 years of LYING?-----its a different religion?

A couple of things:

1.) You are acting as if the Quranic scholars of the past 1300 years agree with each other which has never happened in the history of Islam.

2.) I would agree that many practices of Islam have evolved over time. The introduction of Shariah law sets alone was a major change that didn't exist during Muhammad's time. the problem is with your dialogue here is that there is immense diversity within these areas whereas you keep treating it as a single entity. Once again Islam is not the monolith that you are suggesting it is and never has been.

3.) You still haven't provided any sources to support your theological claims.

to what theological claims do you refer? as to your
islam is not a monolith BS-----leave it alone----islam has
ENOUGH consensus to call it a single creed-----just as Christianity does and Judaism does. I kinda have a bit of a problem calling Hinduism a single creed----but maybe some people can. ----------in the US----sometimes Shiites can
manage to go to sunni mosques-------sorta----maybe---well not really they can do their thing with each other present in
chapel set ups. There are some idea upon which muslims agree------like marching around a rock and farting out
DEATH TO ISRAEL -----both sunnis and Shiites can do it
in each others presence-------even Sufis can

 

[SAYIT]

Okay, I'll play the lib:

But, but, but, Christians, and America, the Crusades, and such !

If you intend to "play the lib" you`ll need far more than a room temperature IQ.

To play the lib he'll need a radical lobotomy.

 

[Osomir]

to what theological claims do you refer? as to your
islam is not a monolith BS-----leave it alone----islam has
ENOUGH consensus to call it a single creed-----just as Christianity does and Judaism does. I kinda have a bit of a problem calling Hinduism a single creed----but maybe some people can. ----------in the US----sometimes Shiites can
manage to go to sunni mosques-------sorta----maybe---well not really they can do their thing with each other present in
chapel set ups. There are some idea upon which muslims agree------like marching around a rock and farting out
DEATH TO ISRAEL -----both sunnis and Shiites can do it
in each others presence-------even Sufis can

1.) If Islam were a single creed then you wouldn't have Muslims killing each other over different interpretations of it. How you can reconcile your single creed theory with the historical existence of sectarian conflict within Islam seems odd.

2.) Even your own example of "marching around a rock" isn't a universal creed in Islam, and some Muslims would consider that idolatry. the black rock has even been stolen before, and the Kaaba has faced Islamic terrorist attacks. even here, in order to find an example of something even remotely "universal" you had to rely on one of the five pillars of Islam; and violence isn't one of those pillars, nor is abducting children.

 

[irosie91]

to what theological claims do you refer? as to your
islam is not a monolith BS-----leave it alone----islam has
ENOUGH consensus to call it a single creed-----just as Christianity does and Judaism does. I kinda have a bit of a problem calling Hinduism a single creed----but maybe some people can. ----------in the US----sometimes Shiites can
manage to go to sunni mosques-------sorta----maybe---well not really they can do their thing with each other present in
chapel set ups. There are some idea upon which muslims agree------like marching around a rock and farting out
DEATH TO ISRAEL -----both sunnis and Shiites can do it
in each others presence-------even Sufis can

1.) If Islam were a single creed then you wouldn't have Muslims killing each other over different interpretations of it. How you can reconcile your single creed theory with the historical existence of sectarian conflict within Islam seems odd.

2.) Even your own example of "marching around a rock" isn't a universal creed in Islam, and some Muslims would consider that idolatry. the black rock has even been stolen before, and the Kaaba has faced Islamic terrorist attacks. even here, in order to find an example of something even remotely "universal" you had to rely on one of the five pillars of Islam; and violence isn't one of those pillars, nor is abducting children.

wrong again ----sectarian conflict does not indicate that a given religion is actually SEVERAL DIFFERENT RELIGIONS-----just as you say----some conflict over
interpretation and in the case of islam------a long standing
feud over a POLITICAL ISSUE. The fact of grabbing the black rock does not indicate a DIFFERENT RELIGION either---it was a power play. Abducting children is an aspect of shariah law Shariah defines islam
Your minor exceptions to the rules which 99 + percent of muslims call islam ------are utterly insignficant

 

[hazlnut]

Okay, I'll play the lib:

But, but, but, Christians, and America, the Crusades, and such !

There is a 16 page thread that started with this topic statement that went off about the crusades. I'm trying to do it again and please don't go off topic again like you did in that thread.

Hebdo insulted all three major religions with his cartoons, why is it only Muslims respond with violence? Why is it the Jews and the Christians are capable of not letting their tempers rage but the Muslims aren't?

These Are The Charlie Hebdo Cartoons That Terrorists Thought Were Worth Killing Over

I don't give a fuck about what happened 400 years ago, or even 10 years ago. Lets stick to what is happening NOW! Can you discuss this topic without bringing ancient history into the picture?

Now?

Well, here's what Christians are up to NOW...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/01tiller.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Christian Parents Caught On Tape Beating Their Gay Son Moments After Disowning Him-The Gaily Grind

 

[Slyhunter]

Okay, I'll play the lib:

But, but, but, Christians, and America, the Crusades, and such !

There is a 16 page thread that started with this topic statement that went off about the crusades. I'm trying to do it again and please don't go off topic again like you did in that thread.

Hebdo insulted all three major religions with his cartoons, why is it only Muslims respond with violence? Why is it the Jews and the Christians are capable of not letting their tempers rage but the Muslims aren't?

These Are The Charlie Hebdo Cartoons That Terrorists Thought Were Worth Killing Over

I don't give a fuck about what happened 400 years ago, or even 10 years ago. Lets stick to what is happening NOW! Can you discuss this topic without bringing ancient history into the picture?

Now?

Well, here's what Christians are up to NOW...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/01tiller.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Christian Parents Caught On Tape Beating Their Gay Son Moments After Disowning Him-The Gaily Grind

1 bad christian is equal in weight to the thousands, perhaps millions of bad Muslims?

 

[eagle1462010]

Both believe their version of Allah is the only True Islam, and as a result they must fight the other and all other religions as the Koran tells them so...........This is a 7th Century mentality where under their religion they were required to kill, convert, or enslave all other religions that didn't agree with their religion. During this time period the Christian religion did the same yet it has evolved over time, while Islam has went BACK TO THE FUTURE to set their guidelines.

The Quran doesn't require Muslims to kill all non-Muslims. In fact Muhammad himself held alliances with many non-Islamic polities in the Arabian peninsula. He obviously didn't think that he had to kill all non-Muslims and he was the one who revealed the Quran.

Muhammad The Warrior Prophet

Terrorism seems to be an indispensable element of a successful insurgency, and it was no less so in Muhammad's case. He used terrorism in two basic ways: First, he ensured discipline among his followers by making public examples of traitors and backsliders. In Muhammad's day the penalty for apostasy in Islam was death. He also ordered some of his political enemies assassinated, including poets and singers who had publicly ridiculed him. When his armies marched into Mecca, for example, Muhammad's suffah set about hunting down a list of old enemies marked for execution. Second, Muhammad used terrorism to strike fear in the hearts of his enemies on a large scale. In the case of the Jewish tribes of Medina, Muhammad seems to have ordered the death of the entire Beni Qaynuqa tribe and the selling of their women and children into slavery, though he was later talked out of it by the chief of one of his allies. On another occasion, again against a Jewish tribe of Medina, he ordered all the tribe's adult males, some nine hundred, beheaded in the city square, the women and children sold into slavery, and their property distributed among his Muslim followers. Shortly after the conquest of Mecca, Muhammad declared "war to the knife" against all those who remained idolaters, instructing his followers to kill any pagans they encountered on the spot. His ruthlessness and brutality served to strengthen his hand with opponents and allies alike.

Muhammad's use of terrorism does not detract from Islam as a religion any more than the history of the Israelite military campaign to conquer Canaan detracts from Judaism. Over time the violent origins of religions are forgotten and only the faith itself remains, so the founders of the creeds come to be remembered as untouched by the violence of the historical record. In Muhammad's case the result has been to deemphasize the military aspects of his life and his considerable military accomplishments as Islam's first great general and the inventor of the theory and practice of insurgency.

 

[eagle1462010]

Mohammed slaughtered his enemies, enslaved their women, and raped them. He killed enough to instill FEAR to all others in order to get the multitudes to OBEY HIM. He ORDERED the slaughter of Non believers in his time. While he didn't kill EVERY ONE, he killed enough to make no one DARE CHALLENGE HIM. He also created a payment for not believing in Islam..............a payment that is OR ELSE you die................

Mohammed was a TYRANT................He was a BRILLIANT Military tactician.............and used all means including making ALLIANCES with those not of his faith to GAIN VICTORY for his ultimate cause....................

Many of the ISLAMIC RADICALS of today quote the Quaran went the perform ritual killings in the name of Allah.......praising him as they cut off the heads of those captured by these animals. They also take and rape the women, and use them as their slaves...............They justify this as this is exactly what Mohammed did back then.

Mohammed was a terrorist............Used terrorist methods to increase insurgencies against the powers of the time. His methods caused many to join, and he later had armies which eventually controlled the region. Those terrorist of today are doing nothing more than what Mohammed did in his time.

PAY OR DIE.............CONVERT OR DIE...............ISLAM WILL RULE THE WORLD.....................

That is their creed, and they can KISS MY ASS.

 

[eagle1462010]

The Quran s Verses of Violence

The Quran:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.



Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.



Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."



Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').



Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.



Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"



Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

 

[eagle1462010]

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.



Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

 

[JoeB131]

There is a 16 page thread that started with this topic statement that went off about the crusades. I'm trying to do it again and please don't go off topic again like you did in that thread.

Hebdo insulted all three major religions with his cartoons, why is it only Muslims respond with violence? Why is it the Jews and the Christians are capable of not letting their tempers rage but the Muslims aren't?

So when Jews killed 2000 people in Gaza or Christians killed 100,000 people in Iraq, they weren't "responding with violence"?

Or is just some violence okay while others isn't?

 

[Slyhunter]

There is a 16 page thread that started with this topic statement that went off about the crusades. I'm trying to do it again and please don't go off topic again like you did in that thread.

Hebdo insulted all three major religions with his cartoons, why is it only Muslims respond with violence? Why is it the Jews and the Christians are capable of not letting their tempers rage but the Muslims aren't?

So when Jews killed 2000 people in Gaza or Christians killed 100,000 people in Iraq, they weren't "responding with violence"?

Or is just some violence okay while others isn't?

They didn't do it in the name of their religion. The fact that they were jews or christians had nothing to do with their purpose.

Besides Gaza was in defense of terrorist acts. And Iraq was a war against terrorists.

 

[JoeB131]

They didn't do it in the name of their religion. The fact that they were jews or christians had nothing to do with their purpose.

Besides Gaza was in defense of terrorist acts. And Iraq was a war against terrorists.

They aren't doing it in the name of their religion? Are you realy trying to claim that the Zionists didn't set up a state in Palestine because that's the land God promised them?

As for Bush, he has said God told him to invade Iraq.

George Bush God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq World news The Guardian

One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

 

[Slyhunter]

Islam is the enemy. They will not rest until everyone is either a Muslim or dead. Thus, neither should we.

The Christians will not kill me if I don't become a Christian.
The Jews won't kill me if I don't become a Jew.
The Muslims, need to be eradicated.

 

[JoeB131]

Islam is the enemy. They will not rest until everyone is either a Muslim or dead. Thus, neither should we.

The Christians will not kill me if I don't become a Christian.
The Jews won't kill me if I don't become a Jew.
The Muslims, need to be eradicated.

Uh, guy, there are hundreds of thousands of Christians, Yazidis, Mandeans, Zoroasterians and other religious minorities living in the "Islamic" world who aren't being killed. And they've been there for hundreds of years. The Jews lived in the Islamic World for centuries, too, until they pissed them off by creating the Zionist Entity.

Meanwhile, in the Christian World, when was the last time you met a Hussite? An Albigensian? How about a worshiper of Zeus or Odin or Quezocoatl? What happened to all those people who didn't want to be Christians?

 

[Slyhunter]

Islam is the enemy. They will not rest until everyone is either a Muslim or dead. Thus, neither should we.

The Christians will not kill me if I don't become a Christian.
The Jews won't kill me if I don't become a Jew.
The Muslims, need to be eradicated.

Uh, guy, there are hundreds of thousands of Christians, Yazidis, Mandeans, Zoroasterians and other religious minorities living in the "Islamic" world who aren't being killed. And they've been there for hundreds of years. The Jews lived in the Islamic World for centuries, too, until they pissed them off by creating the Zionist Entity.

Meanwhile, in the Christian World, when was the last time you met a Hussite? An Albigensian? How about a worshiper of Zeus or Odin or Quezocoatl? What happened to all those people who didn't want to be Christians?

Didn't I say in the OP not to bring up ancient history.

 

[JoeB131]

Islam is the enemy. They will not rest until everyone is either a Muslim or dead. Thus, neither should we.

The Christians will not kill me if I don't become a Christian.
The Jews won't kill me if I don't become a Jew.
The Muslims, need to be eradicated.

Uh, guy, there are hundreds of thousands of Christians, Yazidis, Mandeans, Zoroasterians and other religious minorities living in the "Islamic" world who aren't being killed. And they've been there for hundreds of years. The Jews lived in the Islamic World for centuries, too, until they pissed them off by creating the Zionist Entity.

Meanwhile, in the Christian World, when was the last time you met a Hussite? An Albigensian? How about a worshiper of Zeus or Odin or Quezocoatl? What happened to all those people who didn't want to be Christians?

Didn't I say in the OP not to bring up ancient history.

I wasn't. I was describing CURRENT STATE.

The current state is that non-Muslim religions have thrived in the MIddle east, and non Christian religions in Europe and the Americas- not so much.

Fuck, we don't even have to go back that far. The reason why there is an Israel is a bunch of Christians in Europe tried to turn the Jews of Europe into lampshades and bars of soap.

So they went to Palestine and found a whole bunch of new people to piss off. Brilliant!!!!

 

[ALL SOLUTIONS]

Islamics live in the past. Some of them are not terrorists, but they do nothing to stop terrorism.