Why must some right wingers insist in calling an anti-socialist fascist a "socialist?"

[sakinago]

Hitler tried to ERADICATE socialism and communism. He even set up gangs to attack socialists in the street.
He focused on race NOT class.
Hell, his pan-german theories couldnt survive with socialism.
He tried to dismantle trade unions, was pro-industry ETC ETC ETC
Why? What purpose is there to sound like such a moron?

Actually he was pro socialism, but the communist at the time threatened his power, which is close to socialism. He enacted many socialist policies (while saying they weren't socialist policies), that Bernie admittedly would love to pass in today's America. The simple truth is there isn't a huge difference between socialism and fascism. They both require heavy governmental control, both heavily regulate industries... I mean if a government still retains great control of say a "private" car company, or a state ran "public" car company...is that much different from socialism? Same methods, same end results, just wearing different masks. Hitler wanted power, hitler went after those who threatened that power, hitler rose to power by praising and passing socialist policies, when the communist threatened his power, he attacked them and anything close to them (socialist) to send a message. Yes hitler was also nationalistic, but who says you can't also be a socialist? Look at our president now, he's both a nationalist and socialist. I'm not saying he's the next hitler, BC I don't think he is, but he definitely loves both nationalism and socialism. Really, what are the differences between the methods of fascism and socialism? Not very different. This is why I'm not the biggest fan of the European political spectrum, because far right and far left look way too similar, with way too much government control....and they both turn out bad for their citizens and the nations around them.

 

[jc456]

There are two types of socialists, STATE socialists, and CORPORATE socialists.

That latter is known as as fascists. When the government allows state sanctioned corporate cartels to force citizens to purchase goods and services, it is socialized, but via corporations approved, hand in glove by the state. In essence, that is what we have now with the ACA, and with many other industries in the US, it is a form of socialism known as fascism.

Benito Mussolini (named by his father who loved Benito Juarez), would ask all corporate heads in Italy, along with professors and other members of Italy's intelligentsia to offer Il Duce, a LOYALTY OATH.......

Do you know of anyone else who may be asking for an oath of loyalty to him personally???

nope

 

[nat4900]

There are two types of socialists, STATE socialists, and CORPORATE socialists.

That latter is known as as fascists. When the government allows state sanctioned corporate cartels to force citizens to purchase goods and services, it is socialized, but via corporations approved, hand in glove by the state. In essence, that is what we have now with the ACA, and with many other industries in the US, it is a form of socialism known as fascism.

Benito Mussolini (named by his father who loved Benito Juarez), would ask all corporate heads in Italy, along with professors and other members of Italy's intelligentsia to offer Il Duce, a LOYALTY OATH.......

Do you know of anyone else who may be asking for an oath of loyalty to him personally???

nope

You're obviously overtaxing your half brain with such elaborate and eloquent retorts....maybe you should take your nap now???.

 

[jc456]

There are two types of socialists, STATE socialists, and CORPORATE socialists.

That latter is known as as fascists. When the government allows state sanctioned corporate cartels to force citizens to purchase goods and services, it is socialized, but via corporations approved, hand in glove by the state. In essence, that is what we have now with the ACA, and with many other industries in the US, it is a form of socialism known as fascism.

Benito Mussolini (named by his father who loved Benito Juarez), would ask all corporate heads in Italy, along with professors and other members of Italy's intelligentsia to offer Il Duce, a LOYALTY OATH.......

Do you know of anyone else who may be asking for an oath of loyalty to him personally???

nope

You're obviously overtaxing your half brain with such elaborate and eloquent retorts....maybe you should take your nap now???.

it would seem it is you overtaxing. you asked a question, I answered. you react like this? wow, dude take a break, get your binky and go suck it in the corner for awhile.

 

[2aguy]

Hitler tried to ERADICATE socialism and communism. He even set up gangs to attack socialists in the street.
He focused on race NOT class.
Hell, his pan-german theories couldnt survive with socialism.
He tried to dismantle trade unions, was pro-industry ETC ETC ETC
Why? What purpose is there to sound like such a moron?

Wow...the stupid is strong with this one.....

Why did Stalin purge communists in his government...after all.....weren't they also communists? This silly idea that because the national socialists fought with the international socialists, that that means they were not socialists themselves is just childish thinking.

the national socialists were socialists all the way through, they believed in government control of the means of production......they just didnt' believe in direct seizure of all private property....they just controlled all private property from the central government......

good job! Thats called FASCISM.
Remember reading about the "march of berlin?"
Tell me, since he was a socialist all the way through, maybe give some examples of actions?
I can name MANY that support fascism. Cant name many that would support socialism except maybe welfare and the name.
englighten me

Complete control of the German economy.....that is socialism.

 

[2aguy]

still waiting 2aguy

Wait no longer...

Why Nazism Was Socialism and Why Socialism Is Totalitarian

My purpose today is to make just two main points: (1) To show why Nazi Germany was a socialist state, not a capitalist one. And (2) to show why socialism, understood as an economic system based on government ownership of the means of production, positively requires a totalitarian dictatorship.

The identification of Nazi Germany as a socialist state was one of the many great contributions of Ludwig von Mises.

When one remembers that the word "Nazi" was an abbreviation for "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei — in English translation: the National Socialist German Workers' Party — Mises's identification might not appear all that noteworthy. For what should one expect the economic system of a country ruled by a party with "socialist" in its name to be but socialism?

Nevertheless, apart from Mises and his readers, practically no one thinks of Nazi Germany as a socialist state. It is far more common to believe that it represented a form of capitalism, which is what the Communists and all other Marxists have claimed.

The basis of the claim that Nazi Germany was capitalist was the fact that most industries in Nazi Germany appeared to be left in private hands.

What Mises identified was that private ownership of the means of production existed in name only under the Nazis and that the actual substance of ownership of the means of production resided in the German government. For it was the German government and not the nominal private owners that exercised all of the substantive powers of ownership: it, not the nominal private owners, decided what was to be produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it was to be distributed, as well as what prices would be charged and what wages would be paid, and what dividends or other income the nominal private owners would be permitted to receive. The position of the alleged private owners, Mises showed, was reduced essentially to that of government pensioners.

De facto government ownership of the means of production, as Mises termed it, was logically implied by such fundamental collectivist principles embraced by the Nazis as that the common good comes before the private good and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State. If the individual is a means to the ends of the State, so too, of course, is his property. Just as he is owned by the State, his property is also owned by the State.

But what specifically established de facto socialism in Nazi Germany was the introduction of price and wage controls in 1936. These were imposed in response to the inflation of the money supply carried out by the regime from the time of its coming to power in early 1933. The Nazi regime inflated the money supply as the means of financing the vast increase in government spending required by its programs of public works, subsidies, and rearmament. The price and wage controls were imposed in response to the rise in prices that began to result from the inflation.

The effect of the combination of inflation and price and wage controls is shortages, that is, a situation in which the quantities of goods people attempt to buy exceed the quantities available for sale.

Shortages, in turn, result in economic chaos. It's not only that consumers who show up in stores early in the day are in a position to buy up all the stocks of goods and leave customers who arrive later, with nothing — a situation to which governments typically respond by imposing rationing. Shortages result in chaos throughout the economic system. They introduce randomness in the distribution of supplies between geographical areas, in the allocation of a factor of production among its different products, in the allocation of labor and capital among the different branches of the economic system.

In the face of the combination of price controls and shortages, the effect of a decrease in the supply of an item is not, as it would be in a free market, to raise its price and increase its profitability, thereby operating to stop the decrease in supply, or reverse it if it has gone too far. Price control prohibits the rise in price and thus the increase in profitability. At the same time, the shortages caused by price controls prevent increases in supply from reducing price and profitability. When there is a shortage, the effect of an increase in supply is merely a reduction in the severity of the shortage. Only when the shortage is totally eliminated does an increase in supply necessitate a decrease in price and bring about a decrease in profitability.

As a result, the combination of price controls and shortages makes possible random movements of supply without any effect on price and profitability. In this situation, the production of the most trivial and unimportant goods, even pet rocks, can be expanded at the expense of the production of the most urgently needed and important goods, such as life-saving medicines, with no effect on the price or profitability of either good. Price controls would prevent the production of the medicines from becoming more profitable as their supply decreased, while a shortage even of pet rocks prevented their production from becoming less profitable as their supply increased.

As Mises showed, to cope with such unintended effects of its price controls, the government must either abolish the price controls or add further measures, namely, precisely the control over what is produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it is distributed, which I referred to earlier.


The combination of price controls with this further set of controls constitutes the de facto socialization of the economic system. For it means that the government then exercises all of the substantive powers of ownership.

This was the socialism instituted by the Nazis. And Mises calls it socialism on the German or Nazi pattern, in contrast to the more obvious socialism of the Soviets, which he calls socialism on the Russian or Bolshevik pattern.

 

[TNHarley]

Hitler tried to ERADICATE socialism and communism. He even set up gangs to attack socialists in the street.
He focused on race NOT class.
Hell, his pan-german theories couldnt survive with socialism.
He tried to dismantle trade unions, was pro-industry ETC ETC ETC
Why? What purpose is there to sound like such a moron?

Wow...the stupid is strong with this one.....

Why did Stalin purge communists in his government...after all.....weren't they also communists? This silly idea that because the national socialists fought with the international socialists, that that means they were not socialists themselves is just childish thinking.

the national socialists were socialists all the way through, they believed in government control of the means of production......they just didnt' believe in direct seizure of all private property....they just controlled all private property from the central government......

good job! Thats called FASCISM.
Remember reading about the "march of berlin?"
Tell me, since he was a socialist all the way through, maybe give some examples of actions?
I can name MANY that support fascism. Cant name many that would support socialism except maybe welfare and the name.
englighten me

Complete control of the German economy.....that is socialism.

fascism doesnt control industry? Hmmm thats weird

 

[2aguy]

Hitler tried to ERADICATE socialism and communism. He even set up gangs to attack socialists in the street.
He focused on race NOT class.
Hell, his pan-german theories couldnt survive with socialism.
He tried to dismantle trade unions, was pro-industry ETC ETC ETC
Why? What purpose is there to sound like such a moron?

Wow...the stupid is strong with this one.....

Why did Stalin purge communists in his government...after all.....weren't they also communists? This silly idea that because the national socialists fought with the international socialists, that that means they were not socialists themselves is just childish thinking.

the national socialists were socialists all the way through, they believed in government control of the means of production......they just didnt' believe in direct seizure of all private property....they just controlled all private property from the central government......

good job! Thats called FASCISM.
Remember reading about the "march of berlin?"
Tell me, since he was a socialist all the way through, maybe give some examples of actions?
I can name MANY that support fascism. Cant name many that would support socialism except maybe welfare and the name.
englighten me

Complete control of the German economy.....that is socialism.

fascism doesnt control industry? Hmmm thats weird

Dipshit....fascism is a word created by mussolini to differentiate his form of socialism from the internationalists, including the communists in Italy who kicked him out....

 

[SYTFE]

Hitler tried to ERADICATE socialism and communism. He even set up gangs to attack socialists in the street.
He focused on race NOT class.
Hell, his pan-german theories couldnt survive with socialism.
He tried to dismantle trade unions, was pro-industry ETC ETC ETC
Why? What purpose is there to sound like such a moron?

Thank you for your refeshing honesty. I guess you aren't always a twat, or maybe it's just on Thursdays where you post as a reasonable person?

 

[TNHarley]

Hitler tried to ERADICATE socialism and communism. He even set up gangs to attack socialists in the street.
He focused on race NOT class.
Hell, his pan-german theories couldnt survive with socialism.
He tried to dismantle trade unions, was pro-industry ETC ETC ETC
Why? What purpose is there to sound like such a moron?

Thank you for your refeshing honesty. I guess you aren't always a twat, or maybe it's just on Thursdays where you post as a reasonable person?

oh pleaseeeee

 

[TNHarley]

Hitler tried to ERADICATE socialism and communism. He even set up gangs to attack socialists in the street.
He focused on race NOT class.
Hell, his pan-german theories couldnt survive with socialism.
He tried to dismantle trade unions, was pro-industry ETC ETC ETC
Why? What purpose is there to sound like such a moron?

Wow...the stupid is strong with this one.....

Why did Stalin purge communists in his government...after all.....weren't they also communists? This silly idea that because the national socialists fought with the international socialists, that that means they were not socialists themselves is just childish thinking.

the national socialists were socialists all the way through, they believed in government control of the means of production......they just didnt' believe in direct seizure of all private property....they just controlled all private property from the central government......

good job! Thats called FASCISM.
Remember reading about the "march of berlin?"
Tell me, since he was a socialist all the way through, maybe give some examples of actions?
I can name MANY that support fascism. Cant name many that would support socialism except maybe welfare and the name.
englighten me

Complete control of the German economy.....that is socialism.

fascism doesnt control industry? Hmmm thats weird

Dipshit....fascism is a word created by mussolini to differentiate his form of socialism from the internationalists, including the communists in Italy who kicked him out....

Excellent argument! :/
Everything that isnt capitalism is socialism under a different name!

 

[ptbw forever]

It's cuz he was in the nationalist socialist party, TNHarley.
Duh.
Do lurnin more beter.

Stalin called himself a communist but he wasnt. He was a socialist dictator
Self proclaimed liberals call themselves liberals, but they aint.
Germany started the socialist workers party to draw communists into their nationalist ideals. Then, they dropped that rhetoric to draw in industries.
What actions did he do that were "socialist?"
What kind of socialist puts industry above the worker? What kind of socialist attacks trade unions? What kind fo socialist kills socialists for being socialists? What kind of socialist publically speaks out against socialism and communism?

You really need to learn what a NATIONAL socialist is.

He spoke out against GLOBALIST minded socialists.

 

[TNHarley]

I guess we all just need to quit saying the word "fascist" because apparently it doesnt mean a goddamn thing

 

[Richard-H]

"The basic feature of our economic theory is that we have no theory at all."

-Adolph Hitler

 

[ptbw forever]

I guess we all just need to quit saying the word "fascist" because apparently it doesnt mean a goddamn thing

It doesn't mean what you think it means, that is for sure.

 

[westwall]

Hitler tried to ERADICATE socialism and communism. He even set up gangs to attack socialists in the street.
He focused on race NOT class.
Hell, his pan-german theories couldnt survive with socialism.
He tried to dismantle trade unions, was pro-industry ETC ETC ETC
Why? What purpose is there to sound like such a moron?

Wrong. He tried to eradicate one form of socialism while supporting another. There are two types of governmental system. Collectivist, and individualist. The ultimate form of collective government is authoritarian dictatorship. The ultimate form of individualist government is no government or anarchy. Left wing government. Right wing no government. Thus ANY form of socialist government, socialist, fascist, agrarian communist, ALL of those, are left wing. The government has the control, the individual doesn't.

Fabian socialists have spent decades trying to propagandize the world population into believing that there is a difference between fascism and Soviet style socialism. The reality is there is very little difference. Or, as I like to say it, they are all the same house, just a different color.

 

[ptbw forever]

Hitler tried to ERADICATE socialism and communism. He even set up gangs to attack socialists in the street.
He focused on race NOT class.
Hell, his pan-german theories couldnt survive with socialism.
He tried to dismantle trade unions, was pro-industry ETC ETC ETC
Why? What purpose is there to sound like such a moron?

Wrong. He tried to eradicate one form of socialism while supporting another. There are two types of governmental system. Collectivist, and individualist. The ultimate form of collective government is authoritarian dictatorship. The ultimate form of individualist government is no government or anarchy. Left wing government. Right wing no government. Thus ANY form of socialist government, socialist, fascist, agrarian communist, ALL of those, are left wing. The government has the control, the individual doesn't.

Fabian socialists have spent decades trying to propagandize the world population into believing that there is a difference between fascism and Soviet style socialism. The reality is there is very little difference. Or, as I like to say it, they are all the same house, just a different color.

These morons actually think Communism and Fascism are opposites just because Hitler killed communists.

 

[TNHarley]

"The basic feature of our economic theory is that we have no theory at all."

-Adolph Hitler

He didnt care about economy. Thats for sure. But that is being harped upon in this thread lol

 

[sakinago]

still waiting 2aguy

Wait no longer...

Why Nazism Was Socialism and Why Socialism Is Totalitarian

My purpose today is to make just two main points: (1) To show why Nazi Germany was a socialist state, not a capitalist one. And (2) to show why socialism, understood as an economic system based on government ownership of the means of production, positively requires a totalitarian dictatorship.

The identification of Nazi Germany as a socialist state was one of the many great contributions of Ludwig von Mises.

When one remembers that the word "Nazi" was an abbreviation for "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei — in English translation: the National Socialist German Workers' Party — Mises's identification might not appear all that noteworthy. For what should one expect the economic system of a country ruled by a party with "socialist" in its name to be but socialism?

Nevertheless, apart from Mises and his readers, practically no one thinks of Nazi Germany as a socialist state. It is far more common to believe that it represented a form of capitalism, which is what the Communists and all other Marxists have claimed.

The basis of the claim that Nazi Germany was capitalist was the fact that most industries in Nazi Germany appeared to be left in private hands.

What Mises identified was that private ownership of the means of production existed in name only under the Nazis and that the actual substance of ownership of the means of production resided in the German government. For it was the German government and not the nominal private owners that exercised all of the substantive powers of ownership: it, not the nominal private owners, decided what was to be produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it was to be distributed, as well as what prices would be charged and what wages would be paid, and what dividends or other income the nominal private owners would be permitted to receive. The position of the alleged private owners, Mises showed, was reduced essentially to that of government pensioners.

De facto government ownership of the means of production, as Mises termed it, was logically implied by such fundamental collectivist principles embraced by the Nazis as that the common good comes before the private good and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State. If the individual is a means to the ends of the State, so too, of course, is his property. Just as he is owned by the State, his property is also owned by the State.

But what specifically established de facto socialism in Nazi Germany was the introduction of price and wage controls in 1936. These were imposed in response to the inflation of the money supply carried out by the regime from the time of its coming to power in early 1933. The Nazi regime inflated the money supply as the means of financing the vast increase in government spending required by its programs of public works, subsidies, and rearmament. The price and wage controls were imposed in response to the rise in prices that began to result from the inflation.

The effect of the combination of inflation and price and wage controls is shortages, that is, a situation in which the quantities of goods people attempt to buy exceed the quantities available for sale.

Shortages, in turn, result in economic chaos. It's not only that consumers who show up in stores early in the day are in a position to buy up all the stocks of goods and leave customers who arrive later, with nothing — a situation to which governments typically respond by imposing rationing. Shortages result in chaos throughout the economic system. They introduce randomness in the distribution of supplies between geographical areas, in the allocation of a factor of production among its different products, in the allocation of labor and capital among the different branches of the economic system.

In the face of the combination of price controls and shortages, the effect of a decrease in the supply of an item is not, as it would be in a free market, to raise its price and increase its profitability, thereby operating to stop the decrease in supply, or reverse it if it has gone too far. Price control prohibits the rise in price and thus the increase in profitability. At the same time, the shortages caused by price controls prevent increases in supply from reducing price and profitability. When there is a shortage, the effect of an increase in supply is merely a reduction in the severity of the shortage. Only when the shortage is totally eliminated does an increase in supply necessitate a decrease in price and bring about a decrease in profitability.

As a result, the combination of price controls and shortages makes possible random movements of supply without any effect on price and profitability. In this situation, the production of the most trivial and unimportant goods, even pet rocks, can be expanded at the expense of the production of the most urgently needed and important goods, such as life-saving medicines, with no effect on the price or profitability of either good. Price controls would prevent the production of the medicines from becoming more profitable as their supply decreased, while a shortage even of pet rocks prevented their production from becoming less profitable as their supply increased.

As Mises showed, to cope with such unintended effects of its price controls, the government must either abolish the price controls or add further measures, namely, precisely the control over what is produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it is distributed, which I referred to earlier.


The combination of price controls with this further set of controls constitutes the de facto socialization of the economic system. For it means that the government then exercises all of the substantive powers of ownership.

This was the socialism instituted by the Nazis. And Mises calls it socialism on the German or Nazi pattern, in contrast to the more obvious socialism of the Soviets, which he calls socialism on the Russian or Bolshevik pattern.

Don't forget socialized medicine and universal day care for all. Two more Bernie would love

 

[Tehon]

Hitler tried to ERADICATE socialism and communism. He even set up gangs to attack socialists in the street.
He focused on race NOT class.
Hell, his pan-german theories couldnt survive with socialism.
He tried to dismantle trade unions, was pro-industry ETC ETC ETC
Why? What purpose is there to sound like such a moron?

Actually he was pro socialism, but the communist at the time threatened his power, which is close to socialism. He enacted many socialist policies (while saying they weren't socialist policies), that Bernie admittedly would love to pass in today's America. The simple truth is there isn't a huge difference between socialism and fascism. They both require heavy governmental control, both heavily regulate industries... I mean if a government still retains great control of say a "private" car company, or a state ran "public" car company...is that much different from socialism? Same methods, same end results, just wearing different masks. Hitler wanted power, hitler went after those who threatened that power, hitler rose to power by praising and passing socialist policies, when the communist threatened his power, he attacked them and anything close to them (socialist) to send a message. Yes hitler was also nationalistic, but who says you can't also be a socialist? Look at our president now, he's both a nationalist and socialist. I'm not saying he's the next hitler, BC I don't think he is, but he definitely loves both nationalism and socialism. Really, what are the differences between the methods of fascism and socialism? Not very different. This is why I'm not the biggest fan of the European political spectrum, because far right and far left look way too similar, with way too much government control....and they both turn out bad for their citizens and the nations around them.

I mean if a government still retains great control of say a "private" car company, or a state ran "public" car company...is that much different from socialism?

That is known as state capitalism and yes it is different from socialism. What you have described is a system that retains all the qualities of the capitalist mode of production which the socialists wish to abolish. You have only traded one hierarchical mode of production for another. You have not altered the conditions of the workers in regards to the produce of their labor.