Why must some right wingers insist in calling an anti-socialist fascist a "socialist?"

[Tehon]

Fascism arose in Europe at a time of economic turmoil. A time when dissatisfaction with the capitalist system was very high and socialism was taking roots in the minds of many. The fascists gained power aided by the capitalists for the purpose of suppressing the socialist movements. Which they did fairly ruthlessly.

And then the fascists took over the corporations and dictated to them what, how, how much, and who to offer jobs to. In other words the government took control of the corporations that had helped get them into power. In other words, SOCIALISM!

Except the fascists, I'm thinking of Mussolini, didn't take control of corporations. They didn't remove the private owners. They required the capitalist enterprise to support the state. In other words capitalism, subordinated to the state but capitalism none the less.

 

[sakinago]

Fascism arose in Europe at a time of economic turmoil. A time when dissatisfaction with the capitalist system was very high and socialism was taking roots in the minds of many. The fascists gained power aided by the capitalists for the purpose of suppressing the socialist movements. Which they did fairly ruthlessly.

And then the fascists took over the corporations and dictated to them what, how, how much, and who to offer jobs to. In other words the government took control of the corporations that had helped get them into power. In other words, SOCIALISM!

Except the fascists, I'm thinking of Mussolini, didn't take control of corporations. They didn't remove the private owners. They required the capitalist enterprise to support the state. In other words capitalism, subordinated to the state but capitalism none the less.

That's not true, once Mussolini truly gained enough power he went socialist pretty quick.

 

[westwall]

Fascism arose in Europe at a time of economic turmoil. A time when dissatisfaction with the capitalist system was very high and socialism was taking roots in the minds of many. The fascists gained power aided by the capitalists for the purpose of suppressing the socialist movements. Which they did fairly ruthlessly.

And then the fascists took over the corporations and dictated to them what, how, how much, and who to offer jobs to. In other words the government took control of the corporations that had helped get them into power. In other words, SOCIALISM!

Except the fascists, I'm thinking of Mussolini, didn't take control of corporations. They didn't remove the private owners. They required the capitalist enterprise to support the state. In other words capitalism, subordinated to the state but capitalism none the less.

You need to read some corporate histories there sport. He most certainly did. Which is one reason why the Italian war making capability collapsed. He put his toady's and sycophants in power in those corporations and they couldn't produce enough of anything to continue the war. That's why they capitulated in 1943. They were quite literally toast.

 

[2aguy]

Fascism arose in Europe at a time of economic turmoil. A time when dissatisfaction with the capitalist system was very high and socialism was taking roots in the minds of many. The fascists gained power aided by the capitalists for the purpose of suppressing the socialist movements. Which they did fairly ruthlessly.

And then the fascists took over the corporations and dictated to them what, how, how much, and who to offer jobs to. In other words the government took control of the corporations that had helped get them into power. In other words, SOCIALISM!

Except the fascists, I'm thinking of Mussolini, didn't take control of corporations. They didn't remove the private owners. They required the capitalist enterprise to support the state. In other words capitalism, subordinated to the state but capitalism none the less.

No.....the owners only managed the company for the state, if the state wanted them gone, they were gone, often to a mass grave.

 

[2aguy]

Fascism arose in Europe at a time of economic turmoil. A time when dissatisfaction with the capitalist system was very high and socialism was taking roots in the minds of many. The fascists gained power aided by the capitalists for the purpose of suppressing the socialist movements. Which they did fairly ruthlessly.

And then the fascists took over the corporations and dictated to them what, how, how much, and who to offer jobs to. In other words the government took control of the corporations that had helped get them into power. In other words, SOCIALISM!

Except the fascists, I'm thinking of Mussolini, didn't take control of corporations. They didn't remove the private owners. They required the capitalist enterprise to support the state. In other words capitalism, subordinated to the state but capitalism none the less.

That's not true, once Mussolini truly gained enough power he went socialist pretty quick.

He was a socialist from the beginning, he was part of the Italian communist party till they kicked him out.....so he started his own flavor or socialism.

 

[2aguy]

I guess I'm a bit confused, are we talking about Fascism and Nazism as they were in the 1930s or are we talking about Fascism as it exists today in America. Cuz I don't think it's the same thing, maybe we need to start with a definition of what we're talking about. The terms 'fascist' and 'socialist' get tossed around a lot, I suspect that many times we are talking about different meanings to the same terms.

For starters, I would say that a fascist is someone who believes in total gov't control of pretty much everything; such a person wants to constrain our thoughts and actions to only those in agreement with the gov't meme by regulation or force if necessary. Religion, education, social and economic policy, etc. must all be aligned with the gov'ts objectives and non-conformity is not an option.

One might think that fascism would be diametrically opposed to fascism, and yet I see modern American progressive liberalism as having ALL of these characteristics. Socialism means gov't ownership or control of the economy, well that is basically what the lib/dems have been striving for since the days if FDR, the 1930s. Oddly enough, the Antifa movement in the US opposes domination and oppression and yet the very ideas they hate are what they're fighting for. They're just too dumb to realize it.

They are the same.....the socialists are trying to get clear of the word fascism, because the mass murder of the German and italian socialists was where the world could see them. The mass murder by the international socialists, murdered more people in more countries around the world, but they had a cheering section here in the west and the bodies were buried where it was harder to see them.

 

[2aguy]

Hitler tried to ERADICATE socialism and communism. He even set up gangs to attack socialists in the street.
He focused on race NOT class.
Hell, his pan-german theories couldnt survive with socialism.
He tried to dismantle trade unions, was pro-industry ETC ETC ETC
Why? What purpose is there to sound like such a moron?

He focused on religion. Judaism is not a race.

This should clear that up
Nazi Racism

Yeah....here you are....communists, that is international socialists were also racists.....

 

[Tehon]

And then the fascists took over the corporations and dictated to them what, how, how much, and who to offer jobs to.

When did the fascists take over the corporations? Which corporations? All of them or just some?

It is my understanding that the first four years of Mussolini's rule he practiced a liberal capitalist economic system. And then he started incorporating syndicalism.

 

[westwall]

And then the fascists took over the corporations and dictated to them what, how, how much, and who to offer jobs to.

When did the fascists take over the corporations? Which corporations? All of them or just some?

It is my understanding that the first four years of Mussolini's rule he practiced a liberal capitalist economic system. And then he started incorporating syndicalism.

All of them. If you were a German national you could not do business unless you were a member of the Nazi Party. Even Oscar Schindler of Schindlers list fame, was a member. They even controlled the little companies that made the medals for the soldiers. They were one of the most heavily regulated industries out there. It is astonishing to look at the multitude of regulations they enacted, almost all of which harmed industry, and all while they were waging a world war.

 

[TNHarley]

 

[Tehon]

And then the fascists took over the corporations and dictated to them what, how, how much, and who to offer jobs to.

When did the fascists take over the corporations? Which corporations? All of them or just some?

It is my understanding that the first four years of Mussolini's rule he practiced a liberal capitalist economic system. And then he started incorporating syndicalism.

All of them. If you were a German national you could not do business unless you were a member of the Nazi Party. Even Oscar Schindler of Schindlers list fame, was a member. They even controlled the little companies that made the medals for the soldiers. They were one of the most heavily regulated industries out there. It is astonishing to look at the multitude of regulations they enacted, almost all of which harmed industry, and all while they were waging a world war.

So the state didn't kick the private industrialists to the curb and take control of industry? They only dictated and regulated?

 

[westwall]

And then the fascists took over the corporations and dictated to them what, how, how much, and who to offer jobs to.

When did the fascists take over the corporations? Which corporations? All of them or just some?

It is my understanding that the first four years of Mussolini's rule he practiced a liberal capitalist economic system. And then he started incorporating syndicalism.

All of them. If you were a German national you could not do business unless you were a member of the Nazi Party. Even Oscar Schindler of Schindlers list fame, was a member. They even controlled the little companies that made the medals for the soldiers. They were one of the most heavily regulated industries out there. It is astonishing to look at the multitude of regulations they enacted, almost all of which harmed industry, and all while they were waging a world war.

So the state didn't kick the industrialists to the curb and take control of industry? They only dictated and regulated?

And if the industrialists didn't do as they were ordered they were killed and replaced. Truly, you need to read up on what life was like under both the nazi's and the soviets. It sucked.

 

[Tehon]

And then the fascists took over the corporations and dictated to them what, how, how much, and who to offer jobs to.

When did the fascists take over the corporations? Which corporations? All of them or just some?

It is my understanding that the first four years of Mussolini's rule he practiced a liberal capitalist economic system. And then he started incorporating syndicalism.

All of them. If you were a German national you could not do business unless you were a member of the Nazi Party. Even Oscar Schindler of Schindlers list fame, was a member. They even controlled the little companies that made the medals for the soldiers. They were one of the most heavily regulated industries out there. It is astonishing to look at the multitude of regulations they enacted, almost all of which harmed industry, and all while they were waging a world war.

So the state didn't kick the industrialists to the curb and take control of industry? They only dictated and regulated?

And if the industrialists didn't do as they were ordered they were killed and replaced. Truly, you need to read up on what life was like under both the nazi's and the soviets. It sucked.

Now you are bringing the soviets into this?

Why wouldn't the industrialists want to do what they were told. A state would be a huge contract, especially in a time of war preparation. Just look at our own military industrial complex.

 

[Indeependent]

Hitler tried to ERADICATE socialism and communism. He even set up gangs to attack socialists in the street.
He focused on race NOT class.
Hell, his pan-german theories couldnt survive with socialism.
He tried to dismantle trade unions, was pro-industry ETC ETC ETC
Why? What purpose is there to sound like such a moron?

Hitler wanted to be dictator; what he called his Party is inconsequential.

 

[TNHarley]

I guess I'm a bit confused, are we talking about Fascism and Nazism as they were in the 1930s or are we talking about Fascism as it exists today in America. Cuz I don't think it's the same thing, maybe we need to start with a definition of what we're talking about. The terms 'fascist' and 'socialist' get tossed around a lot, I suspect that many times we are talking about different meanings to the same terms.

For starters, I would say that a fascist is someone who believes in total gov't control of pretty much everything; such a person wants to constrain our thoughts and actions to only those in agreement with the gov't meme by regulation or force if necessary. Religion, education, social and economic policy, etc. must all be aligned with the gov'ts objectives and non-conformity is not an option.

One might think that fascism would be diametrically opposed to fascism, and yet I see modern American progressive liberalism as having ALL of these characteristics. Socialism means gov't ownership or control of the economy, well that is basically what the lib/dems have been striving for since the days if FDR, the 1930s. Oddly enough, the Antifa movement in the US opposes domination and oppression and yet the very ideas they hate are what they're fighting for. They're just too dumb to realize it.

They are the same.....the socialists are trying to get clear of the word fascism, because the mass murder of the German and italian socialists was where the world could see them. The mass murder by the international socialists, murdered more people in more countries around the world, but they had a cheering section here in the west and the bodies were buried where it was harder to see them.

I'm starting to evolve
Benito basically created fascism. He was a socialist to begin with, apparently. That was just a way to manipulate the masses. Just Like Hitler. The sad thing is, I knew that. I just didn't realize it.
its seems like the most intelligent thing to do is lump them together. Branching out only serves the totalitarians agenda.
Hitler was a "fascist" however I'm not going to use that terminology anymore. Matter of fact, I'm just going to use statist/authoritarian or nothing at all.
Basically, no matter what "branch" its all the same.
Except for maybe the ridiculous utopian wet dream that communism will eventually dissolve the state LOL
You either love freedom or you love govt. The details don't mean shit.
Thanks for getting me to thinking. Even if you don't agree with the above

westwall 2aguy

 

[Tehon]

If you believe what this guy says about liberty and cooperation being a better system than statism then I would highly suggest you forget about what you think you know of Karl Marx and look into his writings. They are not what we have been led to believe.

 

[2aguy]

I guess I'm a bit confused, are we talking about Fascism and Nazism as they were in the 1930s or are we talking about Fascism as it exists today in America. Cuz I don't think it's the same thing, maybe we need to start with a definition of what we're talking about. The terms 'fascist' and 'socialist' get tossed around a lot, I suspect that many times we are talking about different meanings to the same terms.

For starters, I would say that a fascist is someone who believes in total gov't control of pretty much everything; such a person wants to constrain our thoughts and actions to only those in agreement with the gov't meme by regulation or force if necessary. Religion, education, social and economic policy, etc. must all be aligned with the gov'ts objectives and non-conformity is not an option.

One might think that fascism would be diametrically opposed to fascism, and yet I see modern American progressive liberalism as having ALL of these characteristics. Socialism means gov't ownership or control of the economy, well that is basically what the lib/dems have been striving for since the days if FDR, the 1930s. Oddly enough, the Antifa movement in the US opposes domination and oppression and yet the very ideas they hate are what they're fighting for. They're just too dumb to realize it.

They are the same.....the socialists are trying to get clear of the word fascism, because the mass murder of the German and italian socialists was where the world could see them. The mass murder by the international socialists, murdered more people in more countries around the world, but they had a cheering section here in the west and the bodies were buried where it was harder to see them.

I'm starting to evolve
Benito basically created fascism. He was a socialist to begin with, apparently. That was just a way to manipulate the masses. Just Like Hitler. The sad thing is, I knew that. I just didn't realize it.
its seems like the most intelligent thing to do is lump them together. Branching out only serves the totalitarians agenda.
Hitler was a "fascist" however I'm not going to use that terminology anymore. Matter of fact, I'm just going to use statist/authoritarian or nothing at all.
Basically, no matter what "branch" its all the same.
Except for maybe the ridiculous utopian wet dream that communism will eventually dissolve the state LOL
You either love freedom or you love govt. The details don't mean shit.
Thanks for getting me to thinking. Even if you don't agree with the above

westwall 2aguy

That is odd....I have never had someone who was on your side of that debate change their mind....

 

[Missouri_Mike]

Hitler tried to ERADICATE socialism and communism. He even set up gangs to attack socialists in the street.
He focused on race NOT class.
Hell, his pan-german theories couldnt survive with socialism.
He tried to dismantle trade unions, was pro-industry ETC ETC ETC
Why? What purpose is there to sound like such a moron?

He was pretty socialist. Took over industry, took over healthcare, he was all for government no matter what you want to call it but basically it was socialism with a military bent.

This is kind of that crazy curve where socialists claim he wasn't a socialist but he implemented all of the policies they want. But for some reason they don't think that way.

 

[westwall]

And then the fascists took over the corporations and dictated to them what, how, how much, and who to offer jobs to.

When did the fascists take over the corporations? Which corporations? All of them or just some?

It is my understanding that the first four years of Mussolini's rule he practiced a liberal capitalist economic system. And then he started incorporating syndicalism.

All of them. If you were a German national you could not do business unless you were a member of the Nazi Party. Even Oscar Schindler of Schindlers list fame, was a member. They even controlled the little companies that made the medals for the soldiers. They were one of the most heavily regulated industries out there. It is astonishing to look at the multitude of regulations they enacted, almost all of which harmed industry, and all while they were waging a world war.

So the state didn't kick the industrialists to the curb and take control of industry? They only dictated and regulated?

And if the industrialists didn't do as they were ordered they were killed and replaced. Truly, you need to read up on what life was like under both the nazi's and the soviets. It sucked.

Now you are bringing the soviets into this?

Why wouldn't the industrialists want to do what they were told. A state would be a huge contract, especially in a time of war preparation. Just look at our own military industrial complex.

Because it crippled their ability to do business. Guess how many tanks the germans were able to build from the beginning of the war to the end? I'll make it easy for you...18,000 give or take a few. Guess how many sherman tanks alone we built? 53,000! Add to that the 55,000 T34's the Soviets were able to build (thanks to the tremendous amount of lend lease aid we gave them) and all of the other tanks we and the Brits and the Canadians and we simply buried them under material. They never had a chance.

The Soviet Union, if it actually cared for its people would not have suffered 25 MILLION casualties. That's the difference between a socialist country and a Republic. In a Republic we are thankful when a soldier gives up their life in combat. In a socialist country you are EXPECTED to die for your country. Just take a look at the casualty figures from WWII and it is easy to see which are the socialist country's, and those that are not.

 

[westwall]

I guess I'm a bit confused, are we talking about Fascism and Nazism as they were in the 1930s or are we talking about Fascism as it exists today in America. Cuz I don't think it's the same thing, maybe we need to start with a definition of what we're talking about. The terms 'fascist' and 'socialist' get tossed around a lot, I suspect that many times we are talking about different meanings to the same terms.

For starters, I would say that a fascist is someone who believes in total gov't control of pretty much everything; such a person wants to constrain our thoughts and actions to only those in agreement with the gov't meme by regulation or force if necessary. Religion, education, social and economic policy, etc. must all be aligned with the gov'ts objectives and non-conformity is not an option.

One might think that fascism would be diametrically opposed to fascism, and yet I see modern American progressive liberalism as having ALL of these characteristics. Socialism means gov't ownership or control of the economy, well that is basically what the lib/dems have been striving for since the days if FDR, the 1930s. Oddly enough, the Antifa movement in the US opposes domination and oppression and yet the very ideas they hate are what they're fighting for. They're just too dumb to realize it.

They are the same.....the socialists are trying to get clear of the word fascism, because the mass murder of the German and italian socialists was where the world could see them. The mass murder by the international socialists, murdered more people in more countries around the world, but they had a cheering section here in the west and the bodies were buried where it was harder to see them.

I'm starting to evolve
Benito basically created fascism. He was a socialist to begin with, apparently. That was just a way to manipulate the masses. Just Like Hitler. The sad thing is, I knew that. I just didn't realize it.
its seems like the most intelligent thing to do is lump them together. Branching out only serves the totalitarians agenda.
Hitler was a "fascist" however I'm not going to use that terminology anymore. Matter of fact, I'm just going to use statist/authoritarian or nothing at all.
Basically, no matter what "branch" its all the same.
Except for maybe the ridiculous utopian wet dream that communism will eventually dissolve the state LOL
You either love freedom or you love govt. The details don't mean shit.
Thanks for getting me to thinking. Even if you don't agree with the above

westwall 2aguy

Nope. You pretty much nailed it.