Why we want stimulus now and worry about deficits later

[Skull Pilot]

Don't burst their bubble. It's what Fox News teaches their sheep. This thing came so close to total financial disaster that there's no telling if we would have ever recovered from it.

So I'll ask you, saying history is irrelevant and not using data and comparisons to the past is what exactly?

And when have I ever linked to a Fox news source?

You see unlike you I think for myself and get very little if any of my information from the idiot box.

You seem to have completely forgotten the autumn of 2008. Here's a little something to jog your memory:

Financial crisis: George W Bush to meet John McCain and Barack Obama on economy - Telegraph

What's that got to do with our painfully slow recovery compared to every other deep recession?

Nothing that's what.

 

[The Rabbi]

.

Holy crap, comparing the recession of the early 80's to this monster is - what's a civil term here - ill-advised. Hmph, that's not a very appropriate term, but I think I'll leave it at that.

Come on, if we're going to pretend this is/was just another economic blip on the long-term map, then perhaps we should be discussing sports or knitting or cat food. Such a notion is absolutely absurd, and to claim that another approach would have had us up and running full speed by now is an exercise in either abject ignorance or pure politics. I suspect the latter. The world economy has suffered a blow it has never suffered before, not even close. It took decades of stupidity to get us here, it could easily take decades to get us out.

Jeez, are we supposed to be taking this kind of thought seriously?

.

You're right. In the 1980s we had desperately high inflation and equally high unemployment. We faced new and strong competition in what had been American monopoly industries like steel and autos. Recall the Misery Index?
Obama stumbled onto an economy that was basically sound (10 years of low inflation and unemployment) and managed to gin it up into a crisis. He has made this the worst recovery in history despite (or because of) record spending and meddling with the economy. Had he done absolutely nothing but played golf every day we would have seen unemployment about 6% today. Instead it is higher than when he took office 3 yewars ago.
So you are correct there is no comparison between the two. 1980s recession was far worse. Fortunately we had Ronald Reagan for president so he laid the groundwork for the longest post war expansion until then. SOmethng Clinton benefitted from.
Thanks for pointing out that they were different. I knew you weren't a total buffoon.

Ronald Reagan started the mess we are in today. Ronald Reagan singlehandedly wiped out the political cost of being fiscally irresponsible. That is the single most damaging act our nation has suffered in the last 40 years.

That's why we had the longest peace time expansion post WW2?

 

[NYcarbineer]

I can show you this:

Initial Unemployment claims:

Ooooooh!!!


That's pretty!


Do you still have the crayons so you can write down the source data for that?

I'd be glad to if you answer this question:

Why would you need someone else to look up initial unemployment claims for you? Are you that uninformed?

 

[Immanuel]

It did not fail, it stopped the economy from sliding deeper into recession.

Really? The stimulus bill passed in early 2009. What was the unemployment rate in January 2010, did it go up or down? Show me the facts of the unemployment rate and UNDERemployment rate by the numbers.

I can show you this:

Initial Unemployment claims:

Nice graph.

I haven't really studied it, but I wonder if the reason the inital claims are falling is because so many people who have filed since 2009 are still unemployed. I've spent most of the past two years looking for work. It is not a pretty sight in the accounting market.

And before you start pushing those buttons, I don't blame President Obama for the conditions we are facing today. Sure the President has some input in regards to economic cycles, even more than the common man, but it would have been a miracle for anyone to have prevented the train wreck this country was headed for.

If anything, I blame the political climate of the day, both Republicans and Democrats, and their unwillingness to but America first.

Immie

 

[Skull Pilot]

Really? The stimulus bill passed in early 2009. What was the unemployment rate in January 2010, did it go up or down? Show me the facts of the unemployment rate and UNDERemployment rate by the numbers.

I can show you this:

Initial Unemployment claims:

it would have been a miracle for anyone to have prevented the train wreck this country was headed for.


Immie

The current train wreck is nothing compared to our inevitable nuclear debt holocaust

 

[NYcarbineer]

Outside of your "opinion" these figures above show no positive effect the 2009 stimulus had on this economy.

For the 1000 time, w/o the stimulus those figures would be even worse, because the unemployment growth would not stop in 2009.

For the 1,000th time...You cannot possibly prove that.

Then you agree that everyone and anyone who claims that tax cuts will stimulate the economy can't possibly prove that, based on your own standards.

 

[Skull Pilot]

For the 1000 time, w/o the stimulus those figures would be even worse, because the unemployment growth would not stop in 2009.

For the 1,000th time...You cannot possibly prove that.

Then you agree that everyone and anyone who claims that tax cuts will stimulate the economy can't possibly prove that, based on your own standards.

So people keeping more of their own money and spending it or saving it as they see fit is a bad thing while the government taking that money and wasting it is a good thing?

Yeah makes perfect sense.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Really? The stimulus bill passed in early 2009. What was the unemployment rate in January 2010, did it go up or down? Show me the facts of the unemployment rate and UNDERemployment rate by the numbers.

I can show you this:

Initial Unemployment claims:

Nice graph.

I haven't really studied it, but I wonder if the reason the inital claims are falling is because so many people who have filed since 2009 are still unemployed. I've spent most of the past two years looking for work. It is not a pretty sight in the accounting market.

And before you start pushing those buttons, I don't blame President Obama for the conditions we are facing today. Sure the President has some input in regards to economic cycles, even more than the common man, but it would have been a miracle for anyone to have prevented the train wreck this country was headed for.

If anything, I blame the political climate of the day, both Republicans and Democrats, and their unwillingness to but America first.

Immie

Don't tell anyone, but I was having a little fun there with all the geniuses around here who insist (often selectively) that just because they can show a chronological association of 2 events that they are proving cause and effect.

sssshhh...

 

[NYcarbineer]

For the 1,000th time...You cannot possibly prove that.

Then you agree that everyone and anyone who claims that tax cuts will stimulate the economy can't possibly prove that, based on your own standards.

So people keeping more of their own money and spending it or saving it as they see fit is a bad thing while the government taking that money and wasting it is a good thing?

Yeah makes perfect sense.

The government is borrowing hundreds of billions so that you can have your government spending without having to pay for it.

But that wasn't my point.

 

[Immanuel]

I can show you this:

Initial Unemployment claims:

Nice graph.

I haven't really studied it, but I wonder if the reason the inital claims are falling is because so many people who have filed since 2009 are still unemployed. I've spent most of the past two years looking for work. It is not a pretty sight in the accounting market.

And before you start pushing those buttons, I don't blame President Obama for the conditions we are facing today. Sure the President has some input in regards to economic cycles, even more than the common man, but it would have been a miracle for anyone to have prevented the train wreck this country was headed for.

If anything, I blame the political climate of the day, both Republicans and Democrats, and their unwillingness to but America first.

Immie

Don't tell anyone, but I was having a little fun there with all the geniuses around here who insist (often selectively) that just because they can show a chronological association of 2 events that they are proving cause and effect.

sssshhh...

Okay, your secret is safe with me... I hope you didn't let the cat out of the bag.

Immie

 

[Skull Pilot]

Then you agree that everyone and anyone who claims that tax cuts will stimulate the economy can't possibly prove that, based on your own standards.

So people keeping more of their own money and spending it or saving it as they see fit is a bad thing while the government taking that money and wasting it is a good thing?

Yeah makes perfect sense.

The government is borrowing hundreds of billions so that you can have your government spending without having to pay for it.

But that wasn't my point.

Yes the government should not be spending as much.

And more money in the hands of the people is always good for the economy. That was my point.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I can show you this:

Initial Unemployment claims:

it would have been a miracle for anyone to have prevented the train wreck this country was headed for.


Immie

The current train wreck is nothing compared to our inevitable nuclear debt holocaust

Stop electing politicians who insist on cutting taxes without cutting spending proportionately would be a good start.

 

[Immanuel]

Then you agree that everyone and anyone who claims that tax cuts will stimulate the economy can't possibly prove that, based on your own standards.

So people keeping more of their own money and spending it or saving it as they see fit is a bad thing while the government taking that money and wasting it is a good thing?

Yeah makes perfect sense.

The government is borrowing hundreds of billions so that you can have your government spending without having to pay for it.

But that wasn't my point.

Unfortunately, and here is the catch as I see it, eventually someone will have to pay for it and I suspect our great grand children will be cussing us out to no end for saddling them with our debt.

What on God's green earth, gives us the right to do this?

Immie

 

[NYcarbineer]

So people keeping more of their own money and spending it or saving it as they see fit is a bad thing while the government taking that money and wasting it is a good thing?

Yeah makes perfect sense.

The government is borrowing hundreds of billions so that you can have your government spending without having to pay for it.

But that wasn't my point.

Yes the government should not be spending as much.

And more money in the hands of the people is always good for the economy. That was my point.

But it's not always good for the economy. It is not good for the economy for the government to borrow billions so you don't have to pay, with taxes, for the government you're getting.

 

[Skull Pilot]

it would have been a miracle for anyone to have prevented the train wreck this country was headed for.


Immie

The current train wreck is nothing compared to our inevitable nuclear debt holocaust

Stop electing politicians who insist on cutting taxes without cutting spending proportionately would be a good start.

It would be nice if you would do that.

I personally have not cast a vote for any dimwitcrap or repugnantcan in the past 4 election cycles.

What's your record?

 

[NYcarbineer]

So people keeping more of their own money and spending it or saving it as they see fit is a bad thing while the government taking that money and wasting it is a good thing?

Yeah makes perfect sense.

The government is borrowing hundreds of billions so that you can have your government spending without having to pay for it.

But that wasn't my point.

Unfortunately, and here is the catch as I see it, eventually someone will have to pay for it and I suspect our great grand children will be cussing us out to no end for saddling them with our debt.

What on God's green earth, gives us the right to do this?

Immie

The ballot box gives us that right. Every time we elect a politician who is willing to add to the debt with tax/spend policies.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The government is borrowing hundreds of billions so that you can have your government spending without having to pay for it.

But that wasn't my point.

Unfortunately, and here is the catch as I see it, eventually someone will have to pay for it and I suspect our great grand children will be cussing us out to no end for saddling them with our debt.

What on God's green earth, gives us the right to do this?

Immie

The ballot box gives us that right. Every time we elect a politician who is willing to add to the debt with tax/spend policies.

Which btw is every politician we have elected in our lifetime.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The current train wreck is nothing compared to our inevitable nuclear debt holocaust

Stop electing politicians who insist on cutting taxes without cutting spending proportionately would be a good start.

It would be nice if you would do that.

I personally have not cast a vote for any dimwitcrap or repugnantcan in the past 4 election cycles.

What's your record?

I vote for the lesser of the evils. I voted for Perot twice. I since have conceded to the reality of the 2 party death grip we're in.

 

[Immanuel]

it would have been a miracle for anyone to have prevented the train wreck this country was headed for.


Immie

The current train wreck is nothing compared to our inevitable nuclear debt holocaust

Stop electing politicians who insist on cutting taxes without cutting spending proportionately would be a good start.

If you could point to a politician who will actually cut spending (whether or not s/he raises or lowers taxes) I would vote for him or her. I'd be more than satisfied to vote for a politician that will raise taxes if he or she will cut spending.

Our debt crisis stems from an unwillingness to be fiscally responsible.

However, I fear you can not find one politician that will be fiscally responsible let alone enough to make a difference in either the legislative or executive branches of our government.

Immie

 

[DiamondDave]

The idiocy of left wing nutters is astounding....