Will more guns create a safer society?

[BlackSand]

What we see in other countries which have strict gun laws is that less guns in circulation create a safer society.

Simply not true ... A great deal of the countries with the lowest rates for gun per capita have the highest rates for homicide.

Of course in most cases the countries with the highest homicide rates are where only the government and criminals (when you can actually tell the two apart) have guns. When you add countries where some law-abiding citizens are allowed to own firearms ... The statistics start to drop as law-abiding gun owners aren't necessarily murders in those countries.

.

 

[2aguy]

Simply not true ... A great deal of the countries with the lowest rates for gun per capita have the highest rates for homicide.

Of course in most cases the countries with the highest homicide rates are where only the government and criminals (when you can actually tell the two apart) have guns. When you add countries where some law-abiding citizens are allowed to own firearms ... The statistics start to drop as law-abiding gun owners aren't necessarily murders in those countries.

They always leave out Mexico....where the government, the police and the cartels work together to murder innocent Mexican citizens...just ask the 43 student teachers murdered by police and cartel members...

as well as the rest of Latin America, Nigeria, Kenya...Russia....lots of gun control....and only the bad guys have guns...and the murder rates are a lot higher than the U.S.

 

[BlackSand]

They always leave out Mexico....where the government, the police and the cartels work together to murder innocent Mexican citizens...just ask the 43 student teachers murdered by police and cartel members...

as well as the rest of Latin America, Nigeria, Kenya...Russia....lots of gun control....and only the bad guys have guns...and the murder rates are a lot higher than the U.S.

That is true ... The map below provided by the United Nations identifies the countries with the highest homicide rates in dark blue.



The darkest blue countries have some of the most strict gun laws or incredibly low guns per capita rates.

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[westwall]

The Founders made sure that the PEOPLE would have access to guns to ensure that when our government switched from being legitimate to illegitimate, we could do something about it.

The Founders also passed a law requiring that all firearms be registered.

They did? Where? I see nothing requiring registration weapons that at that time didn't have anything even resembling a serial number. How can you possibly register a weapon that has no identification marks?

New Book Founding Fathers Imposed Gun Control - Guns.com

Founding Fathers Imposed Gun Control

Were our founding fathers the gun-loving, pro-second amendment patriots we’ve imagined them to be or did they have a more nuanced position when it came to reconciling the Second Amendment with gun control? ​

This is one of the questions that Adam Winkler, a UCLA Law Professor, investigates in his new book,Gunfight: The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms in America.

And his answer to that question is, at the very least, compelling. Winkler argues that “gun rights and gun control are not only compatible; they have lived together since the birth of America.”

Winkler goes on to say, “The founding fathers instituted gun control laws so intrusive that no self-respecting member of today’s N.R.A. board of directors would support them. Early Americans denied the right to gun ownership even to law-abiding people if they failed a political test of loyalty to the Revolution. The founders also declared that free white men were members of the militia and, as such, were forced to appear with their guns at public ‘musters’ where government officials would inspect the weapons and register them on public rolls. When pressing public necessity demanded it, the founding fathers were also willing to impress guns from law abiding citizens, even if those citizens were left without guns to defend themselves from a criminal attack.”

Winkler cites some examples of the more strict and extreme regulations the founders supported. He writes, “they supported forcible disarmament of slaves, free blacks, and people of mixed race out of fear that these groups would use guns to revolt against slave masters,” and in Maryland, before the revolution, “at least one colony, Maryland, passed a law barring Catholics from possessing firearms.”

The theme of his book is consistent, that the founding fathers “understood that gun rights had to be balanced with public safety needs.”

Yet more revisionist history? The facts are entirely different from what this "intellectual" is stating. There was another "intellectual" who tried to show that gun ownership in the Colonies was much less than had previously been reported. His book and his methods were summarily destroyed by historians who didn't have a political axe to grind. The same is true here.

 

[Saigon]

Westwall -

I have you on ignore mode, so do not see your posts. Hence stalking me around the forum probably isn't a great use of time.

Any time you do wish to discuss something with me, send me a PM committing to posting honestly, and I'll be happy to take you off Ignore Mode.

 

[Saigon]

They always leave out Mexico....where the government, the police and the cartels work together to murder innocent Mexican citizens...just ask the 43 student teachers murdered by police and cartel members...

as well as the rest of Latin America, Nigeria, Kenya...Russia....lots of gun control....and only the bad guys have guns...and the murder rates are a lot higher than the U.S.

That is true ... The map below provided by the United Nations identifies the countries with the highest homicide rates in dark blue.



The darkest blue countries have some of the most strict gun laws or incredibly low guns per capita rates.

.

Um....no they don't.

Most of Europe has MUCH tighter gun laws than the US - and FAR less murders. Ditto Australia and New Zealand.

 

[Saigon]

What we see in other countries which have strict gun laws is that less guns in circulation create a safer society.

Actually, what you see are more violent crimes...as in Britain...because criminals have no fear of their victims....how do these countries deal with this crime...they don't report them...as has been found in Britain...as they hide their violent crime stats....

This is patent nonsense, obviously.

My adcice - if you don't believe - don't post it.

 

[Saigon]

Figaro....do you see why your information is inaccurate? If guns are such a problem why is it that violent crime has gone down again in 2013 with more people owning guns and carrying them for protection? Well Figaro, how do you explain the numbers?

Actually, LESS people are owning guns. So you might want to check that before posting it again.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/u...is-down-survey-shows.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[Esmeralda]

That was a SINGLE three month long riot. There have been many more. We own a flat on the Isle San Louis that has been in my wife's family for over 600 years so I am quite confident that we know more about Paris, and France than you ever will. Your arguments are facile and are myopic in their extent.

And you are a jackass and I know a hell of a lot more about France than you imagine, and probably more than you do, in fact. And as I am in the process of arranging to retire there and spend the rest of my life there, I will indeed know far more about France than some narrow minded, ignorant, provincial American who lives in America. And if you have actually convinced yourself that America is safer than France, and probably believe the French should arm themselves to the extent Americans have, you are indeed a total fucking moron.

We live in BOTH places silly person. When one spouts off, as you do on a regular basis, one should be properly prepared. You clearly are not which is why you hurl insults instead of facts. France is like ANY OTHER COUNTRY ON THE PLANET. There are some good areas and some bad. I dare you to go to the 18em arronddisemont et
porte de clignancourt after dark. You won't get shot, but you'll most certainly get raped and or stabbed. And that one actually has a Metro stop. The really bad arronddisement like Clichy sous Bois Monfermeil are nowhere near a Metro stop thankfully, and can only be reached by car or bus. And then of course there is Seine Saint Denis, THE most dangerous place in Paris. It's a interesting area in the daytime, but not one you wish to visit after dark.

As I said our place is in the oldest part of Paris so is quite nice. Lots of police around so the worst thing you have to worry about are pickpockets (who are rampant) and the occasional drunk and belligerent tourist.

So your frame of reference for the entirety of France and French culture is Paris. Interesting. Pretty much says it all.

No, it's not. We have relatives all over France. Try walking alone anywhere along the Mediterranean coast, at night, if you think you're so smart. Your myopia speaks even more volumes of just how separated from the real world you are. Here's a hint, the Queen in Buckingham Palace really doesn't need a gun. But she has guards who do...

Is myopia your favorite word, lol. You are apparently basing your opnions on what you see in the tunnel visioned media rather than reality and your inability to see beyond that. I spent the past summer on the Cote d'Azur. One night I spent two hours in the middle of the night 'walking alone along the Mediterranean coast.' I won't explain the reason, but I was walking all over the smallish town in which I was staying, middle of the night and by myself. Along the sea and a few blocks away from it around town. Including the town center, the casino (which was closed) the bus station and the train station. There was a homelss person sleeping outside the train station. I encountered a few other people, none who bothered me in anyway. It was around 3 am. You try it sometime. Not so scary and dangerous as you think.

 

[Saigon]

So yes - guns DO prevent crime. Absolutely. However, statistics show clearly and repeatedly that where there are guns, there are also deaths. They also show that any decrease in crime related to guns is massively overshadowed by the death toll.

Saigon...you are wrong....incredibly wrong....just for you....

...this time is just for you...the statistics on how many times guns are used to save lives and stop violent crime...keeping in mind, according to the FBI, there are about 8-9,000 gun murders a year....and about 80% of those occur in small, multi block areas in inner city areas of our major cities...usually controlled by democrats...having been controlled by democrats for decades....

again....the bottom column of the chart never wants to post so I give the name of the people or group doing the study, the year of the study and number of times they found guns were used to save lives and stop violent crime each year....

Okay...again...here are all the studies that actually give numbers for guns used to save lives and stop crimes taken from the table I provided from guncite.com...

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717

Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIa 1978...2,141,512

DMIb...1978...1,098,409

Hart...1981...1.797,461

Ohio...1982...771,043

Mauser...1990...1,487,342

Gallup...1991...777,153

Gallup...1993...1,621,377

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,682

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036

And this from the clinton justice department...

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
(Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text,PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
.(Lawrence Southwick, Jr.,Guns and Justifiable Homicide: Deterrence and Defense-concludes there are at least 400,000 "fewer violent crimes due to civilian self-defense use of guns" and at least "800,000 violent crimes are deterred each year because of gun ownership and use by civilians.")


From Obama's CDC...they spent 10 million dollars in 2013 for this study...

from slate.com an article on CDC obama's era...500-3 million defensive gun uses

Handguns suicides mass shootings deaths and self-defense Findings from a research report on gun violence.
7. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report. The three million figure is probably high, “based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.”
--------------------

"Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year."

As shown in the previous footnote, this study did not use a nationally representative population. To correct for this, Just Facts used the following equation:


As Kleck points out in his paper...



....can you answer the question...since none of these studies is lower than about 700,000 times a year....



I re ran the numbers with all of the studies and the average number of times guns are used to save lives and stop violent crime each year in the United States is 1.6 million....

8-9,000 gun murders a year vs. 1.6 million times, on average that a non law enforcement, non military, law abiding citizen stops a violent criminal attack or saves a life....

8-9,000 vs. 1.6 million....

Guns save far more lives than they take....even using the lowest numbers from anti gun biased studies.....

This simply makes no sense - IF guns were saving lives in the US, then your crime rates and death tolls would be low. They are not - they are sky high.

Hence, it is fairly obvious that guns are NOT discouraging crime or criminals.

Another analogy - your point seems to be that new US-only technology is pushing car prices down - and yet you live in a country with the highest car prices on earth. You cannot build a case on that. No one will buy that.

Here is a statistic for you:

Murders with firearms:

UK 14

USA 9,369

United Kingdom vs United States Crime Stats Compared

So, it's fairly obvious that the UK has more effective laws, isn't it.

 

[Esmeralda]

So yes - guns DO prevent crime. Absolutely. However, statistics show clearly and repeatedly that where there are guns, there are also deaths. They also show that any decrease in crime related to guns is massively overshadowed by the death toll.

Saigon...you are wrong....incredibly wrong....just for you....

...this time is just for you...the statistics on how many times guns are used to save lives and stop violent crime...keeping in mind, according to the FBI, there are about 8-9,000 gun murders a year....and about 80% of those occur in small, multi block areas in inner city areas of our major cities...usually controlled by democrats...having been controlled by democrats for decades....

again....the bottom column of the chart never wants to post so I give the name of the people or group doing the study, the year of the study and number of times they found guns were used to save lives and stop violent crime each year....

Okay...again...here are all the studies that actually give numbers for guns used to save lives and stop crimes taken from the table I provided from guncite.com...

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717

Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIa 1978...2,141,512

DMIb...1978...1,098,409

Hart...1981...1.797,461

Ohio...1982...771,043

Mauser...1990...1,487,342

Gallup...1991...777,153

Gallup...1993...1,621,377

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,682

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036

And this from the clinton justice department...

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
(Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text,PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
.(Lawrence Southwick, Jr.,Guns and Justifiable Homicide: Deterrence and Defense-concludes there are at least 400,000 "fewer violent crimes due to civilian self-defense use of guns" and at least "800,000 violent crimes are deterred each year because of gun ownership and use by civilians.")


From Obama's CDC...they spent 10 million dollars in 2013 for this study...

from slate.com an article on CDC obama's era...500-3 million defensive gun uses

Handguns suicides mass shootings deaths and self-defense Findings from a research report on gun violence.
7. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report. The three million figure is probably high, “based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.”
--------------------

"Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year."

As shown in the previous footnote, this study did not use a nationally representative population. To correct for this, Just Facts used the following equation:


As Kleck points out in his paper...



....can you answer the question...since none of these studies is lower than about 700,000 times a year....



I re ran the numbers with all of the studies and the average number of times guns are used to save lives and stop violent crime each year in the United States is 1.6 million....

8-9,000 gun murders a year vs. 1.6 million times, on average that a non law enforcement, non military, law abiding citizen stops a violent criminal attack or saves a life....

8-9,000 vs. 1.6 million....

Guns save far more lives than they take....even using the lowest numbers from anti gun biased studies.....

This simply makes no sense - IF guns were saving lives in the US, then your crime rates and death tolls would be low. They are not - they are sky high.

Hence, it is fairly obvious that guns are NOT discouraging crime or criminals.

Another analogy - your point seems to be that new US-only technology is pushing car prices down - and yet you live in a country with the highest car prices on earth. You cannot build a case on that. No one will buy that.

Exactly.

 

[Ellipsis]

What is the explicit purpose of a hammer?

To hit nails.

What is the explicit purpose of a chainsaw?

To cut through material.

What is the explicit purpose of a gun?

Lawful self-defense, hunting and sport.

***
Was there a point to your questions?

 

[Esmeralda]

What is the explicit purpose of a hammer?

To hit nails.

What is the explicit purpose of a chainsaw?

To cut through material.

What is the explicit purpose of a gun?

Lawful self-defense, hunting and sport.

***
Was there a point to your questions?

The intrinsic purpose of a gun is to KILL.

 

[Ellipsis]

The intrinsic purpose of a gun is to KILL.

When necessary, yes.

Your point?

 

[Esmeralda]

The intrinsic purpose of a gun is to KILL.

When necessary, yes.

Your point?

My point. Very funny. Are you really that obtuse or just pretending?

Oh, and BTW, how 'necessary' is it to kill animals for sport?

 

[Ellipsis]

My point. Very funny. Are you really that obtuse or just pretending?

Oh, and BTW, how 'necessary' is it to kill animals for sport?

To the best of my knowledge, steel and clay targets used in sport are not alive. I haven't been keeping track of modern advancements in voodoo technology so if steel or clay targets are now alive please forgive my ignorance.

I just found this thread and haven't caught up yet. Was there a specific point that line of questioning was supposed to demonstrate? Firearms are for killing. I don't think that's a big secret. I carry a personal firearm so that I can kill a person if I need to. A cop carries a firearm so that she can kill a person if she needs to. A soldier carries a firearm so he can kill a person if he needs to. That's pretty much what they're for.

Now what?

 

[2aguy]

Saigon...our violent crime rate is going down...not up....again.....and more Americans are buying and carrying guns for self defense....please...try to keep up....

 

[Saigon]

Saigon...our violent crime rate is going down...not up....again.....and more Americans are buying and carrying guns for self defense....please...try to keep up....

No, I just proven EXACTLY the opposite. I'll put it here again for you.

The household gun ownership rate has fallen from an average of 50 percent in the 1970s to 49 percent in the 1980s, 43 percent in the 1990s and 35 percent in the 2000s, according to the survey data, analyzed by The New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-is-down-survey-shows.html?pagewanted=all

 

[2aguy]

actually, more people are owning guns....less people are reporting owning guns in telephone surveys...because they know that they don't want the police or the government to know they have them....which is also why gun owners object to doctors asking about gun ownership....since medical records are now being digitized...try to keep up....

 

[DriftingSand]

I'm down to 12 guns. That's my comfort zone and I must say my home has never been safer.