$15 minimum wage would destroy 1.4 Million jobs

[Toddsterpatriot]

Meh - Biden's plan is a slow PHASE-IN. It would destroy nothing and cost very little. Had the minimum wage kept up with inflation, it would be $24 and hour at present. Try supporting a family as a single parent (let alone yourself) on $7.25 an hour (15 grand a year) and let us know how that goes.

So any job that won't "support a family" should be outlawed? Why?

Nope, these are essential workers for the most part. None of us could live well without them.

If you establish a minimum wage that will support a family, then you're saying all jobs that pay less than that are illegal, right? How are you not?

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that the last minimum wage increase to $7.25 occurred in 2009. Ya figure we're about due for at least 12 bucks?

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that the last minimum wage increase to $7.25 occurred in 2009. Ya figure we're about due for at least 12 bucks?

Based on inflation since 2009, we're due for about $8.85

Did you just yank that outta yer ass? Cool!

Value of 2009 US Dollars today - Inflation Calculator

How much are 2009 dollars (USD) worth today? This tool calculates the time value of money based on inflation and CPI historical data from the United States.

www.inflationtool.com

Total Inflation (2009-2021)

23.9%

Total Inflation (2009-2021)

23.9%

That would be $8.98......or didn't you know that?

CPI Inflation Calculator (bls.gov)

History of Federal Minimum Wage Rates Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, 1938 - 2009 | U.S. Department of Labor (dol.gov)

Durr.....

Now tell me more about your $24 claim.....THAT was funny.

 

[Dadoalex]

Were you born like last tuesday?
Why is it that what is historical fact seems to totally evade your conscience.

Normally I simply tell people like you that it's not my role to education them on basic history but, because I'm a sweet guy, I did the search for you.

So in other words you can't answer my question. Why not just say so in the first place?

The question has been answered. You're are simply too intellectually lazy to look for the answer and too stupid to understand the answer if you found it.

 

[Dadoalex]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Actually, it prevent an influx of cash at the bottom creating an inflationary run similar to the 80s.

I can indeed dictate the value of labor by passing a law. Those laws have been passed since 1933. And....SURPRISE the minimum wage doesn't only apply to burger flippers. I know, crazy isn't it! People who make low wages don't just flip burgers. Some sort garbage at recycling plants, some work cleaning hotels. Perhaps you'd be better to expand you understanding of the labor market.

 

[Dadoalex]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Inflation happens. Value changes in response to any inflation. Profit is what Capitalists must seek regardless if they want to stay in business.

And?

There is profit. There is waste profit.
When you're buying a 20M yacht while you're employees are struggling to feed their family...
That is waste profit.
Introduced by Reagan with his "trickle down" tax cuts wherein nothing ever trickled down but the price of cigar boats and condos went through the roof.

Raise the taxes ion investments to make investment income above $200k taxed as regular income. It will encourage people to invest in something other than $400k cars and those investments will increase employment, increase wages, And, in the end, the rich will still be as rich they just won't be as flashy about it.

 

[Dadoalex]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

And after the dust settles, they'll be back, complaining that $15/hr isn't enough and they'll want $20.

And in 12 years $15 may, in fact, not be enough. So, what exactly is your point?

 

[Dadoalex]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Inflation happens. Value changes in response to any inflation. Profit is what Capitalists must seek regardless if they want to stay in business.

Inflation happens. Value changes in response to any inflation.

Prices change, value remains the same.

Wasn't too long ago that $6 would get you a couple of meals at a burger restaurant.
Not anymore
If all you've got is $6 what's left after taxes for a person making minimum wage.
The value of the food didn't change.
Just the amount of food the can eat.
AND
Since good healthy food costs lots more than trash, these people end up eating trash because it's all they can afford.

 

[dblack]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Actually, it prevent an influx of cash at the bottom creating an inflationary run similar to the 80s.

Yes. Minimum wage laws cause inflation. Spreading it out will spread out the inflation. Dog chasing its tail.

I can indeed dictate the value of labor by passing a law.

Nope. You really can't. All you can dictate is the price. You can't change how much people value the goods or services that you're price-fixing.

Do you understand the difference? Do you realize that there IS a difference?

And....SURPRISE the minimum wage doesn't only apply to burger flippers. I know, crazy isn't it! People who make low wages don't just flip burgers. Some sort garbage at recycling plants, some work cleaning hotels. Perhaps you'd be better to expand you understanding of the labor market.

Wow... are you really so fucking stupid that you don't understand that I was using "burger flipping" as a stand-in for all low wage jobs???

I guess so.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Raise the taxes ion investments to make investment income above $200k taxed as regular income. It will encourage people to invest in something other than $400k cars and those investments will increase employment, increase wages,

You want to encourage investment by raising taxes on investment?

You're a special kind of stupid.

 

[dblack]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

And after the dust settles, they'll be back, complaining that $15/hr isn't enough and they'll want $20.

And in 12 years $15 may, in fact, not be enough. So, what exactly is your point?

Same as my point earlier. Artificial price fixing doesn't change the relative value of anything. After the market adjusts (inflation) the relative value of the goods or services in question will remain the same.

Let me ask you - if we passed a law adding a zero to all denominations of our money (eg $1 = $10, $10 = $100, etc..) do you think that would make us all ten times wealthier? Or would it be a pointless gesture that would accomplish nothing?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Inflation happens. Value changes in response to any inflation. Profit is what Capitalists must seek regardless if they want to stay in business.

Inflation happens. Value changes in response to any inflation.

Prices change, value remains the same.

Wasn't too long ago that $6 would get you a couple of meals at a burger restaurant.
Not anymore
If all you've got is $6 what's left after taxes for a person making minimum wage.
The value of the food didn't change.
Just the amount of food the can eat.
AND
Since good healthy food costs lots more than trash, these people end up eating trash because it's all they can afford.

Wasn't too long ago that $6 would get you a couple of meals at a burger restaurant.

And candy bars were 5 cents. LOL!

 

[Andylusion]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Actually, it prevent an influx of cash at the bottom creating an inflationary run similar to the 80s.

I can indeed dictate the value of labor by passing a law. Those laws have been passed since 1933. And....SURPRISE the minimum wage doesn't only apply to burger flippers. I know, crazy isn't it! People who make low wages don't just flip burgers. Some sort garbage at recycling plants, some work cleaning hotels. Perhaps you'd be better to expand you understanding of the labor market.

Well no, you can't. Because I was working at a burger flipper job when the minimum wage went up, and the first thing they did was lay off 3 employees. The minimum wage is always zero.

 

[Andylusion]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Inflation happens. Value changes in response to any inflation. Profit is what Capitalists must seek regardless if they want to stay in business.

Inflation happens. Value changes in response to any inflation.

Prices change, value remains the same.

Wasn't too long ago that $6 would get you a couple of meals at a burger restaurant.
Not anymore
If all you've got is $6 what's left after taxes for a person making minimum wage.
The value of the food didn't change.
Just the amount of food the can eat.
AND
Since good healthy food costs lots more than trash, these people end up eating trash because it's all they can afford.

That's not true actually. A 5 lbs bag of potatoes is $2.50. Compared that to $1.50 for a large fry. Eating healthy is cheaper. Way easier to afford to eat healthy.

And again, the solution to people working minimum wage.... is not to raise the minimum wage, because they'll still be working minimum wage. As we've said, prices will adjust to the new minimum wage.

The solution to people on minimum wage, is for them to make the choice to no longer work minimum wage.

Not suggesting anything that I have not done personally. Get a better job. Move up the income ladder. Do something to better your life.

 

[Dadoalex]

Raise the taxes ion investments to make investment income above $200k taxed as regular income. It will encourage people to invest in something other than $400k cars and those investments will increase employment, increase wages,

You want to encourage investment by raising taxes on investment?

You're a special kind of stupid.

Gee Golly Whiz.

Not on investment.
On withdrawals.
The same way it is taxed now.

Now go be stupid somewhere else. These continuous attempts to raise your IQ above freezing have become boring.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Raise the taxes ion investments to make investment income above $200k taxed as regular income. It will encourage people to invest in something other than $400k cars and those investments will increase employment, increase wages,

You want to encourage investment by raising taxes on investment?

You're a special kind of stupid.

Gee Golly Whiz.

Not on investment.
On withdrawals.
The same way it is taxed now.

Now go be stupid somewhere else. These continuous attempts to raise your IQ above freezing have become boring.

Not on investment.
On withdrawals.

Because people make investments without considering the taxes when they withdraw profits.

Ya stupid twat.

 

[Dadoalex]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

And after the dust settles, they'll be back, complaining that $15/hr isn't enough and they'll want $20.

And in 12 years $15 may, in fact, not be enough. So, what exactly is your point?

Same as my point earlier. Artificial price fixing doesn't change the relative value of anything. After the market adjusts (inflation) the relative value of the goods or services in question will remain the same.

Let me ask you - if we passed a law adding a zero to all denominations of our money (eg $1 = $10, $10 = $100, etc..) do you think that would make us all ten times wealthier? Or would it be a pointless gesture what would accomplish nothing?

Geez. the need to educate the barely literate.

A rich guy needs a hole dug.
What is the value of that labor to him?
WRONG
The value is ZERO. He will force someone to do it for free if he can. Look back into the coal mines and migrant labor abuses if you doubt that.
The minimum wage and strong laws supporting unions create more balance in the labor-owner mix.

 

[Dadoalex]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Actually, it prevent an influx of cash at the bottom creating an inflationary run similar to the 80s.

I can indeed dictate the value of labor by passing a law. Those laws have been passed since 1933. And....SURPRISE the minimum wage doesn't only apply to burger flippers. I know, crazy isn't it! People who make low wages don't just flip burgers. Some sort garbage at recycling plants, some work cleaning hotels. Perhaps you'd be better to expand you understanding of the labor market.

Well no, you can't. Because I was working at a burger flipper job when the minimum wage went up, and the first thing they did was lay off 3 employees. The minimum wage is always zero.

If they laid 3 people off then they STUPIDLY had3 more employees than needed.

NOW let us consider....

Do we think they are stupid....

OR

Do we think you are full of shit?

Um, Alex, we'll take "full of shit" for the win!

 

[Dadoalex]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Inflation happens. Value changes in response to any inflation. Profit is what Capitalists must seek regardless if they want to stay in business.

Inflation happens. Value changes in response to any inflation.

Prices change, value remains the same.

Wasn't too long ago that $6 would get you a couple of meals at a burger restaurant.
Not anymore
If all you've got is $6 what's left after taxes for a person making minimum wage.
The value of the food didn't change.
Just the amount of food the can eat.
AND
Since good healthy food costs lots more than trash, these people end up eating trash because it's all they can afford.

That's not true actually. A 5 lbs bag of potatoes is $2.50. Compared that to $1.50 for a large fry. Eating healthy is cheaper. Way easier to afford to eat healthy.

And again, the solution to people working minimum wage.... is not to raise the minimum wage, because they'll still be working minimum wage. As we've said, prices will adjust to the new minimum wage.

The solution to people on minimum wage, is for them to make the choice to no longer work minimum wage.

Not suggesting anything that I have not done personally. Get a better job. Move up the income ladder. Do something to better your life.

See my previous post about "full of shit."

 

[dblack]

Let me ask you - if we passed a law adding a zero to all denominations of our money (eg $1 = $10, $10 = $100, etc..) do you think that would make us all ten times wealthier? Or would it be a pointless gesture what would accomplish nothing?

Geez. the need to educate the barely literate.

So no answer? You must think it would work. It's the same logic as declaring a minimum wage, so I'm not surprised.

A rich guy needs a hole dug.
What is the value of that labor to him?
WRONG
The value is ZERO. He will force someone to do it for free if he can.

Good thing he can't do that, eh?

Look back into the coal mines and migrant labor abuses if you doubt that.
The minimum wage and strong laws supporting unions create more balance in the labor-owner mix.

No. They didn't.

 

[Andylusion]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Actually, it prevent an influx of cash at the bottom creating an inflationary run similar to the 80s.

I can indeed dictate the value of labor by passing a law. Those laws have been passed since 1933. And....SURPRISE the minimum wage doesn't only apply to burger flippers. I know, crazy isn't it! People who make low wages don't just flip burgers. Some sort garbage at recycling plants, some work cleaning hotels. Perhaps you'd be better to expand you understanding of the labor market.

Well no, you can't. Because I was working at a burger flipper job when the minimum wage went up, and the first thing they did was lay off 3 employees. The minimum wage is always zero.

If they laid 3 people off then they STUPIDLY had3 more employees than needed.

NOW let us consider....

Do we think they are stupid....

OR

Do we think you are full of shit?

Um, Alex, we'll take "full of shit" for the win!

So, I take it from your ignorance based statement, that you know very little about running a business.

No business runs so close cut to the wire. It's dangerous to do that.

If you have a store that requires exactly 5 people to operate, and you only hire exactly 5 people... what happens when one person is sick, and can't come in?

Do you shut down the entire store for the day? What happens when a person quits or goes on vacation? Do you shut down the entire store until you get a replacement?

So typically you have more people hired on, than the minimum you need to operate.

Additionally, many companies have filler positions. Positions that are not required, but serve to keep someone around if needed.

Seriously... do you really think that Walmart Greeters are absolutely required to operate the store? No. But if someone calls off, and they need an extra hand, a greeter can fill in the gap.

This is normal.

The reason they fired 3 people at my store, was because they had a opening shift, an evening, and a mid-shift. They cut back each shift by one person.

How did that work? Well each of us, was required to work more, and cover what that extra person did.

I don't know why you would think that is a crazy concept.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Actually, it prevent an influx of cash at the bottom creating an inflationary run similar to the 80s.

I can indeed dictate the value of labor by passing a law. Those laws have been passed since 1933. And....SURPRISE the minimum wage doesn't only apply to burger flippers. I know, crazy isn't it! People who make low wages don't just flip burgers. Some sort garbage at recycling plants, some work cleaning hotels. Perhaps you'd be better to expand you understanding of the labor market.

I do I am on the job boards at least once a day looking for my next gig , and I call you a liar not many jobs pay minimum wage in red States with the exception of waitresses who get tips