48%: The Democratic Party needs to face an ugly reality

[Oddball]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

And the majors pepper them with frivolous lawsuits challenging that access. Combine that with 'reality tv' media, and there's not much hope. But - the real issue is the stupidity of voters. You simply can't maintain a democracy when voters are so easily manipulated.

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

It’s gotta be a Perot, Cuban, Bloomberg type with the cash to do it and they have to run on Campaign reform to break up the Rs and Ds

Perot was a one-off and the hurdles in many states are even higher now because of his candidacy....The debates are now closed to anyone but (R) & (D) because of him.

I worked in the trenches, while you're spitballing on a message board....You have next to zero chance of getting any new third party on enough ballots to do anything.

I never said I was working to do that I just said I think it would be a great thing for our country if we elected somebody outside of the Reps or Dems and ran our elections in a different way

And I'm telling you that it's a total pipe dream.....The (D)s and (R)s have erected enough barriers so as to make the prospect next to impossible.

That’s very sad if true

I'm afraid it is. I used to think that when the two major parties got bad enough, people would wake up. Clearly, that's not happening. People are stuck on the fear-game - lesser-of-two-evils. Until we neutralize that, by changing to ranked-choice or approval voting, idiot voters are going to keep voting for shitty candidates.

It would be interesting to see if a candidate could exist that pulls equally from
Both sides... my thoughts would be anti-establishment, Fiscal conservative, socially liberal, and able to recognize middle ground on all the major issues. Tough part is the wingnuts are ruling the day so compromise is a dirty word

Jesse Ventura clearly demonstrated that "pulling from both sides" is a loser's game.

All you really need to do to win is motivate around 10%-12% of the electorate (which was the higher-than-normal spike in turnout when he won) that usually stays home, and the "pulling from both sides" crap takes care of itself.

That’s gaming the system to win elections. It’s not what’s best for our country

Motivating sideline players to participate is "gaming the system"?....Are you fucking serious?

 

[kaz]

Rejected. How do you know it's "the publisher?" You don't know that, you want it to mean that

Who else could it mean, in the context of what she said.

"This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me--an agency assistant at the time," Goderich wrote in an emailed statement to Yahoo News. "There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more."


That seems pretty clear. She worked for the agency. Nothing Obama provided to the AGENCY indicated that he was born in Kenya.

Well, since she was being evasive, it could have meant her personally, her department. It could mean that she just didn't see it personally. It could mean her and her boss or her and her assistant. Your argument "who else could it have meant" is a lame ass argument. No wonder you blindly believe whatever Democrats tell you.

Let's explore what she didn't say. She didn't say she wrote that he was born in Kenya or if she wrote it or not. She didn't say why she was too incompetent to fact check it. She didn't say shit, Joe. It's a statement that means nothing. She explained nothing. Just some completely amorphous "us" didn't get it from Obama.

Why would a publisher make up where their authors are born? Obviously they didn't do that, Joe. They got it from Obama. Here's a paper towel, dry off behind your ears.

Then his wife the Mooch and the Hillary campaign both said it. You didn't even start explaining this yet.

1) Where did Obama's publisher get it?

2) Why did Michelle think Obama was born in Kenya? That wasn't from Obama either?

3) Why did the Hillary campaign in 2008 think he was born in Kenya? There were no birthers at that point other than Obama and his lovely bride

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

And the majors pepper them with frivolous lawsuits challenging that access. Combine that with 'reality tv' media, and there's not much hope. But - the real issue is the stupidity of voters. You simply can't maintain a democracy when voters are so easily manipulated.

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

It’s gotta be a Perot, Cuban, Bloomberg type with the cash to do it and they have to run on Campaign reform to break up the Rs and Ds

Perot was a one-off and the hurdles in many states are even higher now because of his candidacy....The debates are now closed to anyone but (R) & (D) because of him.

I worked in the trenches, while you're spitballing on a message board....You have next to zero chance of getting any new third party on enough ballots to do anything.

I never said I was working to do that I just said I think it would be a great thing for our country if we elected somebody outside of the Reps or Dems and ran our elections in a different way

And I'm telling you that it's a total pipe dream.....The (D)s and (R)s have erected enough barriers so as to make the prospect next to impossible.

That’s very sad if true

I'm afraid it is. I used to think that when the two major parties got bad enough, people would wake up. Clearly, that's not happening. People are stuck on the fear-game - lesser-of-two-evils. Until we neutralize that, by changing to ranked-choice or approval voting, idiot voters are going to keep voting for shitty candidates.

It would be interesting to see if a candidate could exist that pulls equally from
Both sides... my thoughts would be anti-establishment, Fiscal conservative, socially liberal, and able to recognize middle ground on all the major issues. Tough part is the wingnuts are ruling the day so compromise is a dirty word

Spending is the single major issue, and there is no middle ground on that. Immigration is a close second, and once again there is no middle ground.

There’s always middle ground. It’s assholes like yourself on both sides that make getting anything done impossible

There is no middle ground when one side wants nothing to do with it.

Look at this last bill that failed in the House. Democrats wanted 600 bucks extra unemployment. Republicans said they'd settle for 300. They wanted 30 billion for the Post Office. The Republicans said they'd go with ten billion. The Democrats wanted another $1,200 stimulus check and the Republicans didn't go for it, but Nancy didn't even try for any negotiations. It's their way or no way at all, and they refused to meet at this middle-ground you talk about.

Yes, Nancy is being stubborn and uncompromising. You must also include that she presented a plan months ago that got completely ignored by the senate. Both sides are doing the same thing to eachother.

It is true that the Republicans put it on the back burner, but they were not going to pass a bill that may have not been needed. They wanted to give it as much time as possible to see the results of the last boatload of money they spent, and if something was needed, to see what it was first. They were trying to be good stewards of our tax dollars. Good on them.

So when the time came up, the Republicans seen our economy going in the right direction. The market recovered and stable. New housing starts in July up 22.6%. Our hospitals were not overwhelmed with Covid patients. Good? Of course not. It may take many months for things to get good again, but we certainly don't need to go another 4 trillion into debt when we're heading in the right direction.

So when the time came to evaluate the situation, THEN decide how to act, the Republicans trimmed down the bill which the Democrats rejected. Once again, as so many times in the past when they had power, they exercised their motto: It's our way or no way.

Oh come on Ray you don’t really buy that BS do you? They ignored the Dems because they didn’t like their bill and weren’t going to give them the political win. Same reason the Dems are doing it to the republicans now

Why would they pass a bill several months before it was needed when they don't know what will be needed yet? The Democrats (like always) were not concerned with the issue at hand. They were concerned about bailing out their states and unions. They didn't care if the people a few months from then would need more or less aid. The economy could have froze, it could have went the other way, or as we are seeing, it's in the recovery direction.

With the heavily leaning MSM, it would be stupid for the Republicans to try and make political points with the public by not giving Democrats credit. It's the House. Everybody knows all appropriation bills start in the House. It's part of our Constitution.

 

[kaz]

If Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota, Iowa, Nevada and New Hampshire are in play, Biden's in trouble. And they are

Actually, NH and MN aren't in play. Neither are Michigan or Wisconsin.

Trump has gone dark in PA and MI, he's out of money.

So you are conceding that Trump won't win the popular vote this time, either, and your only hope is people won't pay attention to what is going on with the EC.

You don't become Prez by "winning" the popular vote. Nobody ever has.

Joe's just making up shit. He think Trump lost States he's behind by a couple percentage points in are lost to him and that he's broke. Joe really doesn't know anything about the world around him

 

[healthmyths]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

You have some very good points.
The problem is the Democrats have a major disadvantage. It is known as the MSM. Historically here is what the MSM did in 2016.
96% donated to Hillary, i.e. their choice and the ONLY way they could affect the aftermath was to present Trump in the worst light.
Honestly... where do you get most of your negative observations of Trump? From the MSM!
I've done this many times showing how a perception generated by the MSM has actually created more Trump supporters.
The perception the MSM has that "Trump is anti-immigrant". Google results: 48,900 "Trump is anti Illegal immigrant"..results 381.
So millions of Americans like me that have relatives OR are "Legal immigrants" are insulted and realize the MSM has fostered a totally
wrong image of Trump...who by the way is MARRIED to a LEGAL immigrant and had a LEGAL immigrant Grandmother.
So when the millions of us are insulted by the MSM making derogatory statements about Trump anti immigrant... WE KNOW that is a LIE!
And consequently we totally then disbelieve EVERYTHING the MSM puts out... sometimes even when it's true!
So the Democrats have a very bad ally with the MSM as it in the worst case that I heard today that could happen is that a vote in Congress would
determine the Presidency. The point the Democrats ALL know is this: There is only 1 vote per state in the House on this issue.

Contingent elections are extremely rare, having occurred only three times in American history, all in the early 1800s
Each state delegation votes en bloc, with each state having a single vote.

Contingent election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

YES each state has just ONE vote in case of contingent election.
So using 2016 as an example: Hillary Clinton won 20 states and DC Trump won 30 states.
So if this became a contingent election and the House determines the Presidency... based on today... Trump would win!
AGAIN just to remind you readers that THINK the electoral college in the case of a "Contingent election" is the end-all-be-all.. Wrong!
The House votes and each state gets just one vote. The candidate that won that state will get the vote.
So even Biden winning NY/CA/IL as Hillary did... the other states and NY/CA/IL all get just one vote!
FACTS..

View attachment 388694

Let’s dig into that. Here is an article by CNN trumps sworn enemy about his recent actions on legal immigration. Can you point out a few things that you think they are lying or misleading about?

Trump administration's swipe at legal immigration puts thousands of lives in limbo

The Trump administration's executive order this week dramatically curtailing legal immigration to the US sent hundreds of people and businesses into a scramble to understand whether their future plans are now derailed.

www.cnn.com

Well right away !

The Migration Policy Institute, a think tank based in Washington, DC, estimates some 167,000 temporary workers will be kept out of the United States as a result of the new restrictions, which took effect on Wednesday.
The administration argued, in the proclamation, that the "extraordinary circumstances" posed by coronavirus called for the suspension of employment-based visas

Trump administration's swipe at legal immigration puts thousands of lives in limbo

The Trump administration's executive order this week dramatically curtailing legal immigration to the US sent hundreds of people and businesses into a scramble to understand whether their future plans are now derailed.

www.cnn.com

So with today's unemployment under 8% you would prefer giving jobs to these people who haven't signed up to become Naturalized Citizens... but are Temporary workers... YOU want THEM to take jobs from people that WANT to be here?

And this anecdotal, heart wrenching oh so sad story...
"I have to work in the location I'm supposed to work, so I'm stuck in Austin," he told CNN. "I have no choice, but I have to stay here all alone."
Venugopal expects to be separated from his wife and 11-month-old daughter through the rest of the year.
Choices. That's what has to be done. It's hard I know!
Shit....! I've been separated from my better half for nearly 2 years! And I'm a natural citizen!
Big f...king woo!
As I pointed out CNN IS NOT a Trump supporter and finds anything... but this is just simply wrong!
Go to Venugopal's country of India... see how hard it is to become a citizen... if you are not in the right CASTE!
The U.S. has one of the world’s weaker laws for illegal entry, according to the data in a study by the Library of Congress, which surveyed statutes in more than 160 nations and released its findings amid a heated debate over whether America’s penalties are too stiff.

Illegal entry penalties in other countries include prison, labor camps, caning

Jumping the border in Singapore is punishable by six months in prison — and not less than three strokes with a cane. In Russia, it can earn you up to two years in a prison labor camp. Pakistan goes as high as 10 years in prison, while India allows for up to eight years behind bars for those who...

www.washingtontimes.com

You are making points sticking up for the policy instead of pointing out where CNN lied which is what I asked

You are right. I couldn't find anything in the CNN article where they lied.
But what they did is while they DIDN"T LIE... they didn't tell the whole story. Their emphasis was Trump bad. Here's how.
It wasn't an objective unbiased story. They said 167,000 temporary workers will be kept out of the United States as a result of the new restrictions, which took effect on Wednesday. BUT they didn't say the primary reason... COVID travel ban.
But immigrant advocates, industries, and experts say the administration is taking advantage of the pandemic to make sweeping changes to the nation's immigration system and advance its agenda to slash legal immigration.
And CNN thinks this is a bad idea!
Some companies had already spent thousands of dollars on visa processing. Nair said she's engaged in conversations with businesses who are wondering whether they should expand their operations overseas, instead of in the US.

So I agree they didn't lie. But what they did is make the article another "Bash Trump". More negatives and NO positives, i.e. that unemployed
Americans might be hired now. Or gasp the best idea... expand overseas.

Yes, Trump calls CNN fake news and the enemy of the people and they report critical stories about Trump and call him out on his lies. That’s the dynamic. But fact checking and being critical and negative does not make it fake news and if we are being honest you’d have to admit that Trump eggs it on. He likes having them as an enemy so he can discredit everything they say in the eyes of his supporters. That way when they report on his lies or irresponsible actions the Trumpsters can just dismiss it as CNN fake news.

that’s the game. You understand that don’t you?

Of course he eggs it on! But I thought the MSM was dignified. Was objective. Was professional.

There were 474 evaluative comments about President Trump during this period, and 445 were negative.
By contrast, there were only 85 evaluations of Biden, and 51 were negative (61%). They were nine times more negative about Trump.

Media ups the ante on negative coverage of Trump

So Trump like the rest of us True Americans don't tear America down...as the Democrats do. We are optimistic.
And we know from past performances the MSM besides having donated 96% to Hillary are easy on Democrats as this chart shows.

 

[kaz]

Democrats crowed about the EC in 2012 when Obama won re-election. Then they melted down about it in 2016 when Trump won. Their indignation is totally driven by circumstance.

Why would they crow about it. Obama won the Popular vote handily....

I don't want PV and would never want it regardless of how elections turned out. That would just be tyranny of the majority

And so? As opposed to what, the tyranny of the minority?

I trust the people to get these things right, thank you... You clearly don't.

People like you should not have their votes equal to people like me. We need to change that.

The power of the states' minority vote to obstruct will change. In fact, the NPV will law of the land by 2024.

You you going to pull that off, Fakey Jakey?

The same way that McMullen pulled off Utah in 2016!.....Oh wait.

You are right that 2016 has nothing to do with 2020.

Trump is busily throwing the state away all by himself. If he loses the LDS, who think he is terribly immoral, he can't win.

The voters are waiting for the wink from the First Presidency.

I know an awful lot of Utahans, Jake....Nearly all of them detest Romney for being a fraud like you, more so than Trump being a blowhard.

And morality isn't so much as a popcorn fart to LDS, if they could support a carpetbagging crony corporatist on the take like Orrin Hatch for as long as they did.

You just revealed you know nothing about Utah. You don't understand why Romney won so easily in Utah, where he has the status of a moral demi-god. Despite your silly posturing, you clearly do not know Utah at all.

If the FP, who don't like Trump at all and get along with Biden well enough, give the tip off, then it is a done deal.

If AZ, NC, UT, etc., are in play, Trump's in trouble.

Romney won in Utah because of three letters....L....D....S.

Period.

Yes, that Trump would be in trouble in Utah is moronic. He's up by 15% in the polls. Republican Jake is just rooting blindly for Democrats at this point.

Trump's in trouble in Alabama too, right Jake? LOL. Dumb ass.

The question is how Romney will do when he runs for re-election after sucker punching the Republican Party

 

[kaz]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

And the majors pepper them with frivolous lawsuits challenging that access. Combine that with 'reality tv' media, and there's not much hope. But - the real issue is the stupidity of voters. You simply can't maintain a democracy when voters are so easily manipulated.

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

It’s gotta be a Perot, Cuban, Bloomberg type with the cash to do it and they have to run on Campaign reform to break up the Rs and Ds

Perot was a one-off and the hurdles in many states are even higher now because of his candidacy....The debates are now closed to anyone but (R) & (D) because of him.

I worked in the trenches, while you're spitballing on a message board....You have next to zero chance of getting any new third party on enough ballots to do anything.

I never said I was working to do that I just said I think it would be a great thing for our country if we elected somebody outside of the Reps or Dems and ran our elections in a different way

Republicans are doing that. Trump is different. The big State Republicans went to the Democrats and Republicans drew people like me in who hadn't been voting for them in decades. It's a new game.

On the other hand, you are supporting the party that's still run, run pass and punt that you're saying you'd like to change

No thanks to changing towards Trumps toxic America.

Democrats have acted this way for 40 years. Stop blaming it on Trump and grow a pair, Darlene

I blame Trump for what he deserves to be blamed for. Actions of Dems don’t excuse any of it.

Yes, you acted this way for 40 years towards the Republicans because of Trump. You're just putting blame where blame is due. Got it

 

[kaz]

Argument from authority fallacy. Do you know what you're talking about or not? Your degree is not relevant

Sure it is. It means other people who were experts in the subject agreed I had expertise in it.

Of course, with Trumpsters, Science, History, Math don't matter if it fails to worship their Orange God.

Listen to the asshole who just got owned on history now try to pass his sorry ass off as the authority!

Joe is such a hypocrite too. As you said, his knowledge of the Nazis and history was demonstrably just wrong.

But then he's like, he majored in history and we have to respect his degree, that while he respects no one else's degree. And he DID NOT SEE THAT COMING.

Every time I write something, and I'm sure you do too, my first thought before posting is does this contradict my other posts? That doesn't even occur ever to Joe or Democrats. They just don't have that gene. Trump has no shame, you can't embarrass him. A trait of Democrats with hypocrisy. They are incapable of seeing their own flagrant hypocrisy. It's incredible.

Joe argues like a child

 

[Oddball]

Argument from authority fallacy. Do you know what you're talking about or not? Your degree is not relevant

Sure it is. It means other people who were experts in the subject agreed I had expertise in it.

Of course, with Trumpsters, Science, History, Math don't matter if it fails to worship their Orange God.

Listen to the asshole who just got owned on history now try to pass his sorry ass off as the authority!

Joe is such a hypocrite too. As you said, his knowledge of the Nazis and history was demonstrably just wrong.

But then he's like, he majored in history and we have to respect his degree, that while he respects no one else's degree. And he DID NOT SEE THAT COMING.

Every time I write something, and I'm sure you do too, my first thought before posting is does this contradict my other posts? That doesn't even occur ever to Joe or Democrats. They just don't have that gene. Trump has no shame, you can't embarrass him. A trait of Democrats with hypocrisy. They are incapable of seeing their own flagrant hypocrisy. It's incredible.

Joe argues like a child

Every time I write something, and I'm sure you do too, my first thought before posting is does this contradict my other posts?

I do something similar..."Am I projecting here?"

With all the lack of introspection, self-awareness, and the rampant projection that comes along with them, I'd hate to catch myself getting caught up in it and suddenly fitting in.

 

[kaz]

Argument from authority fallacy. Do you know what you're talking about or not? Your degree is not relevant

Sure it is. It means other people who were experts in the subject agreed I had expertise in it.

Of course, with Trumpsters, Science, History, Math don't matter if it fails to worship their Orange God.

Listen to the asshole who just got owned on history now try to pass his sorry ass off as the authority!

Joe is such a hypocrite too. As you said, his knowledge of the Nazis and history was demonstrably just wrong.

But then he's like, he majored in history and we have to respect his degree, that while he respects no one else's degree. And he DID NOT SEE THAT COMING.

Every time I write something, and I'm sure you do too, my first thought before posting is does this contradict my other posts? That doesn't even occur ever to Joe or Democrats. They just don't have that gene. Trump has no shame, you can't embarrass him. A trait of Democrats with hypocrisy. They are incapable of seeing their own flagrant hypocrisy. It's incredible.

Joe argues like a child

Every time I write something, and I'm sure you do too, my first thought before posting is does this contradict my other posts?

I do something similar..."Am I projecting here?"

With all the lack of introspection, self-awareness, and the rampant projection that comes along with them, I'd hate to catch myself getting caught up in it and suddenly fitting in.

Well, yeah, if I am about to contradict myself, that's the symptom. Then the question is what is my real value. Which gets into things like projection as you say or other reasons.

My brother and I always joke we are just going to become Democrats so we don't have to think anymore. It's easy. Just listen and repeat, LOL. And no more being attacked by hypocritical rabid leftists!

Of course we're joking, we don't want to not think. It's unfortunate Democrats don't agree with that

 

[Slade3200]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

And the majors pepper them with frivolous lawsuits challenging that access. Combine that with 'reality tv' media, and there's not much hope. But - the real issue is the stupidity of voters. You simply can't maintain a democracy when voters are so easily manipulated.

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

It’s gotta be a Perot, Cuban, Bloomberg type with the cash to do it and they have to run on Campaign reform to break up the Rs and Ds

Perot was a one-off and the hurdles in many states are even higher now because of his candidacy....The debates are now closed to anyone but (R) & (D) because of him.

I worked in the trenches, while you're spitballing on a message board....You have next to zero chance of getting any new third party on enough ballots to do anything.

I never said I was working to do that I just said I think it would be a great thing for our country if we elected somebody outside of the Reps or Dems and ran our elections in a different way

And I'm telling you that it's a total pipe dream.....The (D)s and (R)s have erected enough barriers so as to make the prospect next to impossible.

That’s very sad if true

I'm afraid it is. I used to think that when the two major parties got bad enough, people would wake up. Clearly, that's not happening. People are stuck on the fear-game - lesser-of-two-evils. Until we neutralize that, by changing to ranked-choice or approval voting, idiot voters are going to keep voting for shitty candidates.

It would be interesting to see if a candidate could exist that pulls equally from
Both sides... my thoughts would be anti-establishment, Fiscal conservative, socially liberal, and able to recognize middle ground on all the major issues. Tough part is the wingnuts are ruling the day so compromise is a dirty word

Jesse Ventura clearly demonstrated that "pulling from both sides" is a loser's game.

All you really need to do to win is motivate around 10%-12% of the electorate (which was the higher-than-normal spike in turnout when he won) that usually stays home, and the "pulling from both sides" crap takes care of itself.

That’s gaming the system to win elections. It’s not what’s best for our country

Motivating sideline players to participate is "gaming the system"....Are you fucking serious?

I don’t remember saying “motivating sideline players” where did you get that from?

 

[Slade3200]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

And the majors pepper them with frivolous lawsuits challenging that access. Combine that with 'reality tv' media, and there's not much hope. But - the real issue is the stupidity of voters. You simply can't maintain a democracy when voters are so easily manipulated.

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

It’s gotta be a Perot, Cuban, Bloomberg type with the cash to do it and they have to run on Campaign reform to break up the Rs and Ds

Perot was a one-off and the hurdles in many states are even higher now because of his candidacy....The debates are now closed to anyone but (R) & (D) because of him.

I worked in the trenches, while you're spitballing on a message board....You have next to zero chance of getting any new third party on enough ballots to do anything.

I never said I was working to do that I just said I think it would be a great thing for our country if we elected somebody outside of the Reps or Dems and ran our elections in a different way

And I'm telling you that it's a total pipe dream.....The (D)s and (R)s have erected enough barriers so as to make the prospect next to impossible.

That’s very sad if true

I'm afraid it is. I used to think that when the two major parties got bad enough, people would wake up. Clearly, that's not happening. People are stuck on the fear-game - lesser-of-two-evils. Until we neutralize that, by changing to ranked-choice or approval voting, idiot voters are going to keep voting for shitty candidates.

It would be interesting to see if a candidate could exist that pulls equally from
Both sides... my thoughts would be anti-establishment, Fiscal conservative, socially liberal, and able to recognize middle ground on all the major issues. Tough part is the wingnuts are ruling the day so compromise is a dirty word

Spending is the single major issue, and there is no middle ground on that. Immigration is a close second, and once again there is no middle ground.

There’s always middle ground. It’s assholes like yourself on both sides that make getting anything done impossible

There is no middle ground when one side wants nothing to do with it.

Look at this last bill that failed in the House. Democrats wanted 600 bucks extra unemployment. Republicans said they'd settle for 300. They wanted 30 billion for the Post Office. The Republicans said they'd go with ten billion. The Democrats wanted another $1,200 stimulus check and the Republicans didn't go for it, but Nancy didn't even try for any negotiations. It's their way or no way at all, and they refused to meet at this middle-ground you talk about.

Yes, Nancy is being stubborn and uncompromising. You must also include that she presented a plan months ago that got completely ignored by the senate. Both sides are doing the same thing to eachother.

It is true that the Republicans put it on the back burner, but they were not going to pass a bill that may have not been needed. They wanted to give it as much time as possible to see the results of the last boatload of money they spent, and if something was needed, to see what it was first. They were trying to be good stewards of our tax dollars. Good on them.

So when the time came up, the Republicans seen our economy going in the right direction. The market recovered and stable. New housing starts in July up 22.6%. Our hospitals were not overwhelmed with Covid patients. Good? Of course not. It may take many months for things to get good again, but we certainly don't need to go another 4 trillion into debt when we're heading in the right direction.

So when the time came to evaluate the situation, THEN decide how to act, the Republicans trimmed down the bill which the Democrats rejected. Once again, as so many times in the past when they had power, they exercised their motto: It's our way or no way.

Oh come on Ray you don’t really buy that BS do you? They ignored the Dems because they didn’t like their bill and weren’t going to give them the political win. Same reason the Dems are doing it to the republicans now

Why would they pass a bill several months before it was needed when they don't know what will be needed yet? The Democrats (like always) were not concerned with the issue at hand. They were concerned about bailing out their states and unions. They didn't care if the people a few months from then would need more or less aid. The economy could have froze, it could have went the other way, or as we are seeing, it's in the recovery direction.

With the heavily leaning MSM, it would be stupid for the Republicans to try and make political points with the public by not giving Democrats credit. It's the House. Everybody knows all appropriation bills start in the House. It's part of our Constitution.

They didn’t need to pass it but they could have started the debate and negotiations which always take forever. Instead they waited till last minute and are now stuck trying to get something passed

 

[Slade3200]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

You have some very good points.
The problem is the Democrats have a major disadvantage. It is known as the MSM. Historically here is what the MSM did in 2016.
96% donated to Hillary, i.e. their choice and the ONLY way they could affect the aftermath was to present Trump in the worst light.
Honestly... where do you get most of your negative observations of Trump? From the MSM!
I've done this many times showing how a perception generated by the MSM has actually created more Trump supporters.
The perception the MSM has that "Trump is anti-immigrant". Google results: 48,900 "Trump is anti Illegal immigrant"..results 381.
So millions of Americans like me that have relatives OR are "Legal immigrants" are insulted and realize the MSM has fostered a totally
wrong image of Trump...who by the way is MARRIED to a LEGAL immigrant and had a LEGAL immigrant Grandmother.
So when the millions of us are insulted by the MSM making derogatory statements about Trump anti immigrant... WE KNOW that is a LIE!
And consequently we totally then disbelieve EVERYTHING the MSM puts out... sometimes even when it's true!
So the Democrats have a very bad ally with the MSM as it in the worst case that I heard today that could happen is that a vote in Congress would
determine the Presidency. The point the Democrats ALL know is this: There is only 1 vote per state in the House on this issue.

Contingent elections are extremely rare, having occurred only three times in American history, all in the early 1800s
Each state delegation votes en bloc, with each state having a single vote.

Contingent election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

YES each state has just ONE vote in case of contingent election.
So using 2016 as an example: Hillary Clinton won 20 states and DC Trump won 30 states.
So if this became a contingent election and the House determines the Presidency... based on today... Trump would win!
AGAIN just to remind you readers that THINK the electoral college in the case of a "Contingent election" is the end-all-be-all.. Wrong!
The House votes and each state gets just one vote. The candidate that won that state will get the vote.
So even Biden winning NY/CA/IL as Hillary did... the other states and NY/CA/IL all get just one vote!
FACTS..

View attachment 388694

Let’s dig into that. Here is an article by CNN trumps sworn enemy about his recent actions on legal immigration. Can you point out a few things that you think they are lying or misleading about?

Trump administration's swipe at legal immigration puts thousands of lives in limbo

The Trump administration's executive order this week dramatically curtailing legal immigration to the US sent hundreds of people and businesses into a scramble to understand whether their future plans are now derailed.

www.cnn.com

Well right away !

The Migration Policy Institute, a think tank based in Washington, DC, estimates some 167,000 temporary workers will be kept out of the United States as a result of the new restrictions, which took effect on Wednesday.
The administration argued, in the proclamation, that the "extraordinary circumstances" posed by coronavirus called for the suspension of employment-based visas

Trump administration's swipe at legal immigration puts thousands of lives in limbo

The Trump administration's executive order this week dramatically curtailing legal immigration to the US sent hundreds of people and businesses into a scramble to understand whether their future plans are now derailed.

www.cnn.com

So with today's unemployment under 8% you would prefer giving jobs to these people who haven't signed up to become Naturalized Citizens... but are Temporary workers... YOU want THEM to take jobs from people that WANT to be here?

And this anecdotal, heart wrenching oh so sad story...
"I have to work in the location I'm supposed to work, so I'm stuck in Austin," he told CNN. "I have no choice, but I have to stay here all alone."
Venugopal expects to be separated from his wife and 11-month-old daughter through the rest of the year.
Choices. That's what has to be done. It's hard I know!
Shit....! I've been separated from my better half for nearly 2 years! And I'm a natural citizen!
Big f...king woo!
As I pointed out CNN IS NOT a Trump supporter and finds anything... but this is just simply wrong!
Go to Venugopal's country of India... see how hard it is to become a citizen... if you are not in the right CASTE!
The U.S. has one of the world’s weaker laws for illegal entry, according to the data in a study by the Library of Congress, which surveyed statutes in more than 160 nations and released its findings amid a heated debate over whether America’s penalties are too stiff.

Illegal entry penalties in other countries include prison, labor camps, caning

Jumping the border in Singapore is punishable by six months in prison — and not less than three strokes with a cane. In Russia, it can earn you up to two years in a prison labor camp. Pakistan goes as high as 10 years in prison, while India allows for up to eight years behind bars for those who...

www.washingtontimes.com

You are making points sticking up for the policy instead of pointing out where CNN lied which is what I asked

You are right. I couldn't find anything in the CNN article where they lied.
But what they did is while they DIDN"T LIE... they didn't tell the whole story. Their emphasis was Trump bad. Here's how.
It wasn't an objective unbiased story. They said 167,000 temporary workers will be kept out of the United States as a result of the new restrictions, which took effect on Wednesday. BUT they didn't say the primary reason... COVID travel ban.
But immigrant advocates, industries, and experts say the administration is taking advantage of the pandemic to make sweeping changes to the nation's immigration system and advance its agenda to slash legal immigration.
And CNN thinks this is a bad idea!
Some companies had already spent thousands of dollars on visa processing. Nair said she's engaged in conversations with businesses who are wondering whether they should expand their operations overseas, instead of in the US.

So I agree they didn't lie. But what they did is make the article another "Bash Trump". More negatives and NO positives, i.e. that unemployed
Americans might be hired now. Or gasp the best idea... expand overseas.

Yes, Trump calls CNN fake news and the enemy of the people and they report critical stories about Trump and call him out on his lies. That’s the dynamic. But fact checking and being critical and negative does not make it fake news and if we are being honest you’d have to admit that Trump eggs it on. He likes having them as an enemy so he can discredit everything they say in the eyes of his supporters. That way when they report on his lies or irresponsible actions the Trumpsters can just dismiss it as CNN fake news.

that’s the game. You understand that don’t you?

Of course he eggs it on! But I thought the MSM was dignified. Was objective. Was professional.

There were 474 evaluative comments about President Trump during this period, and 445 were negative.
By contrast, there were only 85 evaluations of Biden, and 51 were negative (61%). They were nine times more negative about Trump.

Media ups the ante on negative coverage of Trump

So Trump like the rest of us True Americans don't tear America down...as the Democrats do. We are optimistic.
And we know from past performances the MSM besides having donated 96% to Hillary are easy on Democrats as this chart shows.
View attachment 388938

The MSM is largely not dignified and professional. I thought the president of our country was supposed to be those things but I guess y’all gave up on that expectation with Trump

 

[JustAGuy1]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

And the majors pepper them with frivolous lawsuits challenging that access. Combine that with 'reality tv' media, and there's not much hope. But - the real issue is the stupidity of voters. You simply can't maintain a democracy when voters are so easily manipulated.

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

It’s gotta be a Perot, Cuban, Bloomberg type with the cash to do it and they have to run on Campaign reform to break up the Rs and Ds

Perot was a one-off and the hurdles in many states are even higher now because of his candidacy....The debates are now closed to anyone but (R) & (D) because of him.

I worked in the trenches, while you're spitballing on a message board....You have next to zero chance of getting any new third party on enough ballots to do anything.

I never said I was working to do that I just said I think it would be a great thing for our country if we elected somebody outside of the Reps or Dems and ran our elections in a different way

And I'm telling you that it's a total pipe dream.....The (D)s and (R)s have erected enough barriers so as to make the prospect next to impossible.

That’s very sad if true

I'm afraid it is. I used to think that when the two major parties got bad enough, people would wake up. Clearly, that's not happening. People are stuck on the fear-game - lesser-of-two-evils. Until we neutralize that, by changing to ranked-choice or approval voting, idiot voters are going to keep voting for shitty candidates.

It would be interesting to see if a candidate could exist that pulls equally from
Both sides... my thoughts would be anti-establishment, Fiscal conservative, socially liberal, and able to recognize middle ground on all the major issues. Tough part is the wingnuts are ruling the day so compromise is a dirty word

Spending is the single major issue, and there is no middle ground on that. Immigration is a close second, and once again there is no middle ground.

There’s always middle ground. It’s assholes like yourself on both sides that make getting anything done impossible

There is no middle ground when one side wants nothing to do with it.

Look at this last bill that failed in the House. Democrats wanted 600 bucks extra unemployment. Republicans said they'd settle for 300. They wanted 30 billion for the Post Office. The Republicans said they'd go with ten billion. The Democrats wanted another $1,200 stimulus check and the Republicans didn't go for it, but Nancy didn't even try for any negotiations. It's their way or no way at all, and they refused to meet at this middle-ground you talk about.

Yes, Nancy is being stubborn and uncompromising. You must also include that she presented a plan months ago that got completely ignored by the senate. Both sides are doing the same thing to eachother.

It is true that the Republicans put it on the back burner, but they were not going to pass a bill that may have not been needed. They wanted to give it as much time as possible to see the results of the last boatload of money they spent, and if something was needed, to see what it was first. They were trying to be good stewards of our tax dollars. Good on them.

So when the time came up, the Republicans seen our economy going in the right direction. The market recovered and stable. New housing starts in July up 22.6%. Our hospitals were not overwhelmed with Covid patients. Good? Of course not. It may take many months for things to get good again, but we certainly don't need to go another 4 trillion into debt when we're heading in the right direction.

So when the time came to evaluate the situation, THEN decide how to act, the Republicans trimmed down the bill which the Democrats rejected. Once again, as so many times in the past when they had power, they exercised their motto: It's our way or no way.

Oh come on Ray you don’t really buy that BS do you? They ignored the Dems because they didn’t like their bill and weren’t going to give them the political win. Same reason the Dems are doing it to the republicans now

Why would they pass a bill several months before it was needed when they don't know what will be needed yet? The Democrats (like always) were not concerned with the issue at hand. They were concerned about bailing out their states and unions. They didn't care if the people a few months from then would need more or less aid. The economy could have froze, it could have went the other way, or as we are seeing, it's in the recovery direction.

With the heavily leaning MSM, it would be stupid for the Republicans to try and make political points with the public by not giving Democrats credit. It's the House. Everybody knows all appropriation bills start in the House. It's part of our Constitution.

They didn’t need to pass it but they could have started the debate and negotiations which always take forever. Instead they waited till last minute and are now stuck trying to get something passed

Sorry, Nancy never had any intention of "negotiating" anything.

Pelosi digs in ahead of coronavirus talks: 'We're not budging'
Pelosi digs in ahead of coronavirus talks: 'We're not budging'

 

[Oddball]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

And the majors pepper them with frivolous lawsuits challenging that access. Combine that with 'reality tv' media, and there's not much hope. But - the real issue is the stupidity of voters. You simply can't maintain a democracy when voters are so easily manipulated.

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

It’s gotta be a Perot, Cuban, Bloomberg type with the cash to do it and they have to run on Campaign reform to break up the Rs and Ds

Perot was a one-off and the hurdles in many states are even higher now because of his candidacy....The debates are now closed to anyone but (R) & (D) because of him.

I worked in the trenches, while you're spitballing on a message board....You have next to zero chance of getting any new third party on enough ballots to do anything.

I never said I was working to do that I just said I think it would be a great thing for our country if we elected somebody outside of the Reps or Dems and ran our elections in a different way

And I'm telling you that it's a total pipe dream.....The (D)s and (R)s have erected enough barriers so as to make the prospect next to impossible.

That’s very sad if true

I'm afraid it is. I used to think that when the two major parties got bad enough, people would wake up. Clearly, that's not happening. People are stuck on the fear-game - lesser-of-two-evils. Until we neutralize that, by changing to ranked-choice or approval voting, idiot voters are going to keep voting for shitty candidates.

It would be interesting to see if a candidate could exist that pulls equally from
Both sides... my thoughts would be anti-establishment, Fiscal conservative, socially liberal, and able to recognize middle ground on all the major issues. Tough part is the wingnuts are ruling the day so compromise is a dirty word

Jesse Ventura clearly demonstrated that "pulling from both sides" is a loser's game.

All you really need to do to win is motivate around 10%-12% of the electorate (which was the higher-than-normal spike in turnout when he won) that usually stays home, and the "pulling from both sides" crap takes care of itself.

That’s gaming the system to win elections. It’s not what’s best for our country

Motivating sideline players to participate is "gaming the system"....Are you fucking serious?

I don’t remember saying “motivating sideline players” where did you get that from?

That's what Ventura did....He got somewhere around 10%-12% of people who didn't normally vote to come out and vote for him....You claimed that was "gaming the system".

 

[Oddball]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

And the majors pepper them with frivolous lawsuits challenging that access. Combine that with 'reality tv' media, and there's not much hope. But - the real issue is the stupidity of voters. You simply can't maintain a democracy when voters are so easily manipulated.

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

It’s gotta be a Perot, Cuban, Bloomberg type with the cash to do it and they have to run on Campaign reform to break up the Rs and Ds

Perot was a one-off and the hurdles in many states are even higher now because of his candidacy....The debates are now closed to anyone but (R) & (D) because of him.

I worked in the trenches, while you're spitballing on a message board....You have next to zero chance of getting any new third party on enough ballots to do anything.

I never said I was working to do that I just said I think it would be a great thing for our country if we elected somebody outside of the Reps or Dems and ran our elections in a different way

And I'm telling you that it's a total pipe dream.....The (D)s and (R)s have erected enough barriers so as to make the prospect next to impossible.

That’s very sad if true

I'm afraid it is. I used to think that when the two major parties got bad enough, people would wake up. Clearly, that's not happening. People are stuck on the fear-game - lesser-of-two-evils. Until we neutralize that, by changing to ranked-choice or approval voting, idiot voters are going to keep voting for shitty candidates.

It would be interesting to see if a candidate could exist that pulls equally from
Both sides... my thoughts would be anti-establishment, Fiscal conservative, socially liberal, and able to recognize middle ground on all the major issues. Tough part is the wingnuts are ruling the day so compromise is a dirty word

Spending is the single major issue, and there is no middle ground on that. Immigration is a close second, and once again there is no middle ground.

There’s always middle ground. It’s assholes like yourself on both sides that make getting anything done impossible

There is no middle ground when one side wants nothing to do with it.

Look at this last bill that failed in the House. Democrats wanted 600 bucks extra unemployment. Republicans said they'd settle for 300. They wanted 30 billion for the Post Office. The Republicans said they'd go with ten billion. The Democrats wanted another $1,200 stimulus check and the Republicans didn't go for it, but Nancy didn't even try for any negotiations. It's their way or no way at all, and they refused to meet at this middle-ground you talk about.

Yes, Nancy is being stubborn and uncompromising. You must also include that she presented a plan months ago that got completely ignored by the senate. Both sides are doing the same thing to eachother.

It is true that the Republicans put it on the back burner, but they were not going to pass a bill that may have not been needed. They wanted to give it as much time as possible to see the results of the last boatload of money they spent, and if something was needed, to see what it was first. They were trying to be good stewards of our tax dollars. Good on them.

So when the time came up, the Republicans seen our economy going in the right direction. The market recovered and stable. New housing starts in July up 22.6%. Our hospitals were not overwhelmed with Covid patients. Good? Of course not. It may take many months for things to get good again, but we certainly don't need to go another 4 trillion into debt when we're heading in the right direction.

So when the time came to evaluate the situation, THEN decide how to act, the Republicans trimmed down the bill which the Democrats rejected. Once again, as so many times in the past when they had power, they exercised their motto: It's our way or no way.

Oh come on Ray you don’t really buy that BS do you? They ignored the Dems because they didn’t like their bill and weren’t going to give them the political win. Same reason the Dems are doing it to the republicans now

Why would they pass a bill several months before it was needed when they don't know what will be needed yet? The Democrats (like always) were not concerned with the issue at hand. They were concerned about bailing out their states and unions. They didn't care if the people a few months from then would need more or less aid. The economy could have froze, it could have went the other way, or as we are seeing, it's in the recovery direction.

With the heavily leaning MSM, it would be stupid for the Republicans to try and make political points with the public by not giving Democrats credit. It's the House. Everybody knows all appropriation bills start in the House. It's part of our Constitution.

They didn’t need to pass it but they could have started the debate and negotiations which always take forever. Instead they waited till last minute and are now stuck trying to get something passed

Sorry, Nancy never had any intention of "negotiating" anything.

Pelosi digs in ahead of coronavirus talks: 'We're not budging'
Pelosi digs in ahead of coronavirus talks: 'We're not budging'

She never does....It's her way or the highway....And if you're in her caucus, she'll bully the shit out of you to toe the line.

 

[Slade3200]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

You have some very good points.
The problem is the Democrats have a major disadvantage. It is known as the MSM. Historically here is what the MSM did in 2016.
96% donated to Hillary, i.e. their choice and the ONLY way they could affect the aftermath was to present Trump in the worst light.
Honestly... where do you get most of your negative observations of Trump? From the MSM!
I've done this many times showing how a perception generated by the MSM has actually created more Trump supporters.
The perception the MSM has that "Trump is anti-immigrant". Google results: 48,900 "Trump is anti Illegal immigrant"..results 381.
So millions of Americans like me that have relatives OR are "Legal immigrants" are insulted and realize the MSM has fostered a totally
wrong image of Trump...who by the way is MARRIED to a LEGAL immigrant and had a LEGAL immigrant Grandmother.
So when the millions of us are insulted by the MSM making derogatory statements about Trump anti immigrant... WE KNOW that is a LIE!
And consequently we totally then disbelieve EVERYTHING the MSM puts out... sometimes even when it's true!
So the Democrats have a very bad ally with the MSM as it in the worst case that I heard today that could happen is that a vote in Congress would
determine the Presidency. The point the Democrats ALL know is this: There is only 1 vote per state in the House on this issue.

Contingent elections are extremely rare, having occurred only three times in American history, all in the early 1800s
Each state delegation votes en bloc, with each state having a single vote.

Contingent election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

YES each state has just ONE vote in case of contingent election.
So using 2016 as an example: Hillary Clinton won 20 states and DC Trump won 30 states.
So if this became a contingent election and the House determines the Presidency... based on today... Trump would win!
AGAIN just to remind you readers that THINK the electoral college in the case of a "Contingent election" is the end-all-be-all.. Wrong!
The House votes and each state gets just one vote. The candidate that won that state will get the vote.
So even Biden winning NY/CA/IL as Hillary did... the other states and NY/CA/IL all get just one vote!
FACTS..

View attachment 388694

Let’s dig into that. Here is an article by CNN trumps sworn enemy about his recent actions on legal immigration. Can you point out a few things that you think they are lying or misleading about?

Trump administration's swipe at legal immigration puts thousands of lives in limbo

The Trump administration's executive order this week dramatically curtailing legal immigration to the US sent hundreds of people and businesses into a scramble to understand whether their future plans are now derailed.

www.cnn.com

Well right away !

The Migration Policy Institute, a think tank based in Washington, DC, estimates some 167,000 temporary workers will be kept out of the United States as a result of the new restrictions, which took effect on Wednesday.
The administration argued, in the proclamation, that the "extraordinary circumstances" posed by coronavirus called for the suspension of employment-based visas

Trump administration's swipe at legal immigration puts thousands of lives in limbo

The Trump administration's executive order this week dramatically curtailing legal immigration to the US sent hundreds of people and businesses into a scramble to understand whether their future plans are now derailed.

www.cnn.com

So with today's unemployment under 8% you would prefer giving jobs to these people who haven't signed up to become Naturalized Citizens... but are Temporary workers... YOU want THEM to take jobs from people that WANT to be here?

And this anecdotal, heart wrenching oh so sad story...
"I have to work in the location I'm supposed to work, so I'm stuck in Austin," he told CNN. "I have no choice, but I have to stay here all alone."
Venugopal expects to be separated from his wife and 11-month-old daughter through the rest of the year.
Choices. That's what has to be done. It's hard I know!
Shit....! I've been separated from my better half for nearly 2 years! And I'm a natural citizen!
Big f...king woo!
As I pointed out CNN IS NOT a Trump supporter and finds anything... but this is just simply wrong!
Go to Venugopal's country of India... see how hard it is to become a citizen... if you are not in the right CASTE!
The U.S. has one of the world’s weaker laws for illegal entry, according to the data in a study by the Library of Congress, which surveyed statutes in more than 160 nations and released its findings amid a heated debate over whether America’s penalties are too stiff.

Illegal entry penalties in other countries include prison, labor camps, caning

Jumping the border in Singapore is punishable by six months in prison — and not less than three strokes with a cane. In Russia, it can earn you up to two years in a prison labor camp. Pakistan goes as high as 10 years in prison, while India allows for up to eight years behind bars for those who...

www.washingtontimes.com

You are making points sticking up for the policy instead of pointing out where CNN lied which is what I asked

You are right. I couldn't find anything in the CNN article where they lied.
But what they did is while they DIDN"T LIE... they didn't tell the whole story. Their emphasis was Trump bad. Here's how.
It wasn't an objective unbiased story. They said 167,000 temporary workers will be kept out of the United States as a result of the new restrictions, which took effect on Wednesday. BUT they didn't say the primary reason... COVID travel ban.
But immigrant advocates, industries, and experts say the administration is taking advantage of the pandemic to make sweeping changes to the nation's immigration system and advance its agenda to slash legal immigration.
And CNN thinks this is a bad idea!
Some companies had already spent thousands of dollars on visa processing. Nair said she's engaged in conversations with businesses who are wondering whether they should expand their operations overseas, instead of in the US.

So I agree they didn't lie. But what they did is make the article another "Bash Trump". More negatives and NO positives, i.e. that unemployed
Americans might be hired now. Or gasp the best idea... expand overseas.

Yes, Trump calls CNN fake news and the enemy of the people and they report critical stories about Trump and call him out on his lies. That’s the dynamic. But fact checking and being critical and negative does not make it fake news and if we are being honest you’d have to admit that Trump eggs it on. He likes having them as an enemy so he can discredit everything they say in the eyes of his supporters. That way when they report on his lies or irresponsible actions the Trumpsters can just dismiss it as CNN fake news.

that’s the game. You understand that don’t you?

Of course he eggs it on! But I thought the MSM was dignified. Was objective. Was professional.

There were 474 evaluative comments about President Trump during this period, and 445 were negative.
By contrast, there were only 85 evaluations of Biden, and 51 were negative (61%). They were nine times more negative about Trump.

Media ups the ante on negative coverage of Trump

So Trump like the rest of us True Americans don't tear America down...as the Democrats do. We are optimistic.
And we know from past performances the MSM besides having donated 96% to Hillary are easy on Democrats as this chart shows.
View attachment 388938

Trumpnis far more polarizing than anybody I’ve seen in office so yes he is going to get more negative coverage... again he eggs it on.

did you really just say that Trump doesn’t tear America down?!Have you ever heard on of his rallies?! His entire 2016 campaign was ripping on how bad we were and now all he does is paint doom and gloom for everything Democratic. It’s a joke

 

[Slade3200]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

And the majors pepper them with frivolous lawsuits challenging that access. Combine that with 'reality tv' media, and there's not much hope. But - the real issue is the stupidity of voters. You simply can't maintain a democracy when voters are so easily manipulated.

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

It’s gotta be a Perot, Cuban, Bloomberg type with the cash to do it and they have to run on Campaign reform to break up the Rs and Ds

Perot was a one-off and the hurdles in many states are even higher now because of his candidacy....The debates are now closed to anyone but (R) & (D) because of him.

I worked in the trenches, while you're spitballing on a message board....You have next to zero chance of getting any new third party on enough ballots to do anything.

I never said I was working to do that I just said I think it would be a great thing for our country if we elected somebody outside of the Reps or Dems and ran our elections in a different way

Republicans are doing that. Trump is different. The big State Republicans went to the Democrats and Republicans drew people like me in who hadn't been voting for them in decades. It's a new game.

On the other hand, you are supporting the party that's still run, run pass and punt that you're saying you'd like to change

No thanks to changing towards Trumps toxic America.

Democrats have acted this way for 40 years. Stop blaming it on Trump and grow a pair, Darlene

I blame Trump for what he deserves to be blamed for. Actions of Dems don’t excuse any of it.

Yes, you acted this way for 40 years towards the Republicans because of Trump. You're just putting blame where blame is due. Got it

I’ve been supportive of Republicans for most my life. You don’t know what you’re talking about

 

[Slade3200]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

And the majors pepper them with frivolous lawsuits challenging that access. Combine that with 'reality tv' media, and there's not much hope. But - the real issue is the stupidity of voters. You simply can't maintain a democracy when voters are so easily manipulated.

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

I’ve been talking to a lot of Republicans about this and I actually hear a lot of them say that they really don’t like the man Trump is or how he acts, but they dislike the Dems even more as they don’t believe in many of their extreme policy objectives. So they are voting for Trump because of the common enemy not because they support all he does and says.

I think you’re right about the way the wings play into this. If the Dems go hard on the progressive causes... anti-gun, PC, cancel culture, raising taxes, regulating energy etc they are going to isolate many swing voters and push them into Trumps camp.

The problem is, if Trump wins again, the Dems STILL won't look in the mirror.

This is madness.

If the Dems lose and trump goes for another 4 then it’s rip for a third party to come in 2024. I’d love to see a strong play for that if that’s the situation

What do you need a third party for?...Better you purge your own party of the Marxist crackpots that are infesting it.

Because the Reps and Dems are too big, too powerful and too corrupt. People need to run on ideas and accomplishments not on a party line. We don’t need parties anymore except to raise millions of dollars to campaign with which is the root of the problem.

You have NFI what you're up against.

I worked with the Libertarian Party for two cycles...You'll never get your third party over the ballot access restrictions imposed by the states.....The LP spends millions and millions every year just to get on the ballot.

It’s gotta be a Perot, Cuban, Bloomberg type with the cash to do it and they have to run on Campaign reform to break up the Rs and Ds

Perot was a one-off and the hurdles in many states are even higher now because of his candidacy....The debates are now closed to anyone but (R) & (D) because of him.

I worked in the trenches, while you're spitballing on a message board....You have next to zero chance of getting any new third party on enough ballots to do anything.

I never said I was working to do that I just said I think it would be a great thing for our country if we elected somebody outside of the Reps or Dems and ran our elections in a different way

And I'm telling you that it's a total pipe dream.....The (D)s and (R)s have erected enough barriers so as to make the prospect next to impossible.

That’s very sad if true

I'm afraid it is. I used to think that when the two major parties got bad enough, people would wake up. Clearly, that's not happening. People are stuck on the fear-game - lesser-of-two-evils. Until we neutralize that, by changing to ranked-choice or approval voting, idiot voters are going to keep voting for shitty candidates.

It would be interesting to see if a candidate could exist that pulls equally from
Both sides... my thoughts would be anti-establishment, Fiscal conservative, socially liberal, and able to recognize middle ground on all the major issues. Tough part is the wingnuts are ruling the day so compromise is a dirty word

Spending is the single major issue, and there is no middle ground on that. Immigration is a close second, and once again there is no middle ground.

There’s always middle ground. It’s assholes like yourself on both sides that make getting anything done impossible

There is no middle ground when one side wants nothing to do with it.

Look at this last bill that failed in the House. Democrats wanted 600 bucks extra unemployment. Republicans said they'd settle for 300. They wanted 30 billion for the Post Office. The Republicans said they'd go with ten billion. The Democrats wanted another $1,200 stimulus check and the Republicans didn't go for it, but Nancy didn't even try for any negotiations. It's their way or no way at all, and they refused to meet at this middle-ground you talk about.

Yes, Nancy is being stubborn and uncompromising. You must also include that she presented a plan months ago that got completely ignored by the senate. Both sides are doing the same thing to eachother.

It is true that the Republicans put it on the back burner, but they were not going to pass a bill that may have not been needed. They wanted to give it as much time as possible to see the results of the last boatload of money they spent, and if something was needed, to see what it was first. They were trying to be good stewards of our tax dollars. Good on them.

So when the time came up, the Republicans seen our economy going in the right direction. The market recovered and stable. New housing starts in July up 22.6%. Our hospitals were not overwhelmed with Covid patients. Good? Of course not. It may take many months for things to get good again, but we certainly don't need to go another 4 trillion into debt when we're heading in the right direction.

So when the time came to evaluate the situation, THEN decide how to act, the Republicans trimmed down the bill which the Democrats rejected. Once again, as so many times in the past when they had power, they exercised their motto: It's our way or no way.

Oh come on Ray you don’t really buy that BS do you? They ignored the Dems because they didn’t like their bill and weren’t going to give them the political win. Same reason the Dems are doing it to the republicans now

Why would they pass a bill several months before it was needed when they don't know what will be needed yet? The Democrats (like always) were not concerned with the issue at hand. They were concerned about bailing out their states and unions. They didn't care if the people a few months from then would need more or less aid. The economy could have froze, it could have went the other way, or as we are seeing, it's in the recovery direction.

With the heavily leaning MSM, it would be stupid for the Republicans to try and make political points with the public by not giving Democrats credit. It's the House. Everybody knows all appropriation bills start in the House. It's part of our Constitution.

They didn’t need to pass it but they could have started the debate and negotiations which always take forever. Instead they waited till last minute and are now stuck trying to get something passed

Sorry, Nancy never had any intention of "negotiating" anything.

Pelosi digs in ahead of coronavirus talks: 'We're not budging'
Pelosi digs in ahead of coronavirus talks: 'We're not budging'

Nor did Mitch... as I’ve been saying, both sides

 

[bripat9643]

This is just a guess, of course, but somewhere around 48% of those who vote in November will be voting for Donald Trump. Without going into the laundry list of obvious examples or any of the standard talking points, there are certainly plenty of reasons not to. Yet he has a perfectly reasonable chance of winning.

Right now, polls show that about 43% of Americans approve of the job he's doing. This, after everything that has happened, and that number should be a very sobering indication of where this country is right now. Personally, I try to understand how these people can do this, but I still only understand some of it.

Anyway, here's the point: Elections are about contrasts. Choices. How can that many people support this disaster of a person? For many of them, they're looking at the alternative. And when those who provide their information and opinions for them point at things like PC and Identity Politics and Cancel Culture and an overall culture in decay, they can make reasonable points not to vote for the Democratic party. Even with, amazingly, this profoundly damaged person in the White House.

It's certainly too late to make any changes before November, but the Democratic party had a chance to take over the middle, and I don't see that happening. There is no excuse, zero, none, for the race to be this close. Regardless of who wins, the Democrats have too often allowed the wrong voices to represent them. It allows the Trumpsters to tie all the silliest crap coming from the hardcore Left to the milquetoast, feeble Biden.

This should be a learning experience, but I'm doubtful.

You have some very good points.
The problem is the Democrats have a major disadvantage. It is known as the MSM. Historically here is what the MSM did in 2016.
96% donated to Hillary, i.e. their choice and the ONLY way they could affect the aftermath was to present Trump in the worst light.
Honestly... where do you get most of your negative observations of Trump? From the MSM!
I've done this many times showing how a perception generated by the MSM has actually created more Trump supporters.
The perception the MSM has that "Trump is anti-immigrant". Google results: 48,900 "Trump is anti Illegal immigrant"..results 381.
So millions of Americans like me that have relatives OR are "Legal immigrants" are insulted and realize the MSM has fostered a totally
wrong image of Trump...who by the way is MARRIED to a LEGAL immigrant and had a LEGAL immigrant Grandmother.
So when the millions of us are insulted by the MSM making derogatory statements about Trump anti immigrant... WE KNOW that is a LIE!
And consequently we totally then disbelieve EVERYTHING the MSM puts out... sometimes even when it's true!
So the Democrats have a very bad ally with the MSM as it in the worst case that I heard today that could happen is that a vote in Congress would
determine the Presidency. The point the Democrats ALL know is this: There is only 1 vote per state in the House on this issue.

Contingent elections are extremely rare, having occurred only three times in American history, all in the early 1800s
Each state delegation votes en bloc, with each state having a single vote.

Contingent election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

YES each state has just ONE vote in case of contingent election.
So using 2016 as an example: Hillary Clinton won 20 states and DC Trump won 30 states.
So if this became a contingent election and the House determines the Presidency... based on today... Trump would win!
AGAIN just to remind you readers that THINK the electoral college in the case of a "Contingent election" is the end-all-be-all.. Wrong!
The House votes and each state gets just one vote. The candidate that won that state will get the vote.
So even Biden winning NY/CA/IL as Hillary did... the other states and NY/CA/IL all get just one vote!
FACTS..

View attachment 388694

Let’s dig into that. Here is an article by CNN trumps sworn enemy about his recent actions on legal immigration. Can you point out a few things that you think they are lying or misleading about?

Trump administration's swipe at legal immigration puts thousands of lives in limbo

The Trump administration's executive order this week dramatically curtailing legal immigration to the US sent hundreds of people and businesses into a scramble to understand whether their future plans are now derailed.

www.cnn.com

Well right away !

The Migration Policy Institute, a think tank based in Washington, DC, estimates some 167,000 temporary workers will be kept out of the United States as a result of the new restrictions, which took effect on Wednesday.
The administration argued, in the proclamation, that the "extraordinary circumstances" posed by coronavirus called for the suspension of employment-based visas

Trump administration's swipe at legal immigration puts thousands of lives in limbo

The Trump administration's executive order this week dramatically curtailing legal immigration to the US sent hundreds of people and businesses into a scramble to understand whether their future plans are now derailed.

www.cnn.com

So with today's unemployment under 8% you would prefer giving jobs to these people who haven't signed up to become Naturalized Citizens... but are Temporary workers... YOU want THEM to take jobs from people that WANT to be here?

And this anecdotal, heart wrenching oh so sad story...
"I have to work in the location I'm supposed to work, so I'm stuck in Austin," he told CNN. "I have no choice, but I have to stay here all alone."
Venugopal expects to be separated from his wife and 11-month-old daughter through the rest of the year.
Choices. That's what has to be done. It's hard I know!
Shit....! I've been separated from my better half for nearly 2 years! And I'm a natural citizen!
Big f...king woo!
As I pointed out CNN IS NOT a Trump supporter and finds anything... but this is just simply wrong!
Go to Venugopal's country of India... see how hard it is to become a citizen... if you are not in the right CASTE!
The U.S. has one of the world’s weaker laws for illegal entry, according to the data in a study by the Library of Congress, which surveyed statutes in more than 160 nations and released its findings amid a heated debate over whether America’s penalties are too stiff.

Illegal entry penalties in other countries include prison, labor camps, caning

Jumping the border in Singapore is punishable by six months in prison — and not less than three strokes with a cane. In Russia, it can earn you up to two years in a prison labor camp. Pakistan goes as high as 10 years in prison, while India allows for up to eight years behind bars for those who...

www.washingtontimes.com

You are making points sticking up for the policy instead of pointing out where CNN lied which is what I asked

You are right. I couldn't find anything in the CNN article where they lied.
But what they did is while they DIDN"T LIE... they didn't tell the whole story. Their emphasis was Trump bad. Here's how.
It wasn't an objective unbiased story. They said 167,000 temporary workers will be kept out of the United States as a result of the new restrictions, which took effect on Wednesday. BUT they didn't say the primary reason... COVID travel ban.
But immigrant advocates, industries, and experts say the administration is taking advantage of the pandemic to make sweeping changes to the nation's immigration system and advance its agenda to slash legal immigration.
And CNN thinks this is a bad idea!
Some companies had already spent thousands of dollars on visa processing. Nair said she's engaged in conversations with businesses who are wondering whether they should expand their operations overseas, instead of in the US.

So I agree they didn't lie. But what they did is make the article another "Bash Trump". More negatives and NO positives, i.e. that unemployed
Americans might be hired now. Or gasp the best idea... expand overseas.

Yes, Trump calls CNN fake news and the enemy of the people and they report critical stories about Trump and call him out on his lies. That’s the dynamic. But fact checking and being critical and negative does not make it fake news and if we are being honest you’d have to admit that Trump eggs it on. He likes having them as an enemy so he can discredit everything they say in the eyes of his supporters. That way when they report on his lies or irresponsible actions the Trumpsters can just dismiss it as CNN fake news.

that’s the game. You understand that don’t you?

Of course he eggs it on! But I thought the MSM was dignified. Was objective. Was professional.

There were 474 evaluative comments about President Trump during this period, and 445 were negative.
By contrast, there were only 85 evaluations of Biden, and 51 were negative (61%). They were nine times more negative about Trump.

Media ups the ante on negative coverage of Trump

So Trump like the rest of us True Americans don't tear America down...as the Democrats do. We are optimistic.
And we know from past performances the MSM besides having donated 96% to Hillary are easy on Democrats as this chart shows.
View attachment 388938

The MSM is largely not dignified and professional. I thought the president of our country was supposed to be those things but I guess y’all gave up on that expectation with Trump

When you're wrestling with pigs, you're bound to get mud on your cloths.