CDZ A New and Improved Constitution for the USA

[Dan Daly]

The government has no respect for the law as it is...selectively enforcing or ignoring as suits them...so why would any sane person expect them to have any more respect for changes or additions to the law?

Till you can force the government to abide by the laws we have, this is all nothing but ideological masturbation.

I think structural change could help expolse those who try to manipulate the law.


its intercourse

It's jacking off with the same hand and expecting a different result.

ha.... but I dont think so...

so how do you hope for any change...do you see a need for change?

Of course I see a need for change...but changing words that are routinely ignored and expecting them to automagically be followed is a fool's errand. Change would be people holding their governments accountable to the existing laws. Accomplish that change and I'll be happy to start coming up with new and improved laws to keep the change-a-rollin.

 

[Foxfyre]

The debt has grown and is growing faster during President Obama's administration than it did in any previous administration. The deficits remain larger than would have been considered acceptable for the entire debt just a few decades ago. Again, please argue what I have said instead of implying that I insist something that I have not insisted.

In 1980, the national debt was less than $1 trillion. It is now more than $18 trillion and is not slowing down but is accelerating.

I would correct that by writing into the Constitution strict limits on what Congress could spend money on.

Amazing. Yes, that was what Bush's libertarian laissez-faire economics wrought, the damage it has done to the U.S. economy, and the revenue shortfall that ensued. Remember, I argued your point with precision: "they have done nothing to even slow it down"

Look, carefully:

As previously stated, your chart shows the national debt as a percentage of the GDP and does not go past the Bush administration.

While researching something else I ran across this graph that shows the national debt in dollar amounts. I am not wishing to enter into a partisan blame game here. My intention is to illustrate the problem and the necessity that we the people do something about it regardless of who is to blame for it. And my source here is the same as yours.

 

[DriftingSand]

A new, improved version would be the original version but with a stipulation that branded America as a Christian nation. Afterall, it was founded by a vast majority of Christians (of varying denominations). What the early Founders were opposed to was a government dominated by a single, particular, or specific denomination.

I think not.

You don't know until you try!

 

[DriftingSand]

We the people of the Christian United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, and encourage Christian values and ethics do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America under God's divine guidance and protection.

So much for separation of Church and state. Now, tell us again why pilgrims came to the shores of America. Right: to flee religious oppression.

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It's my Constitution so it's my rules.

 

[Foxfyre]

We the people of the Christian United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, and encourage Christian values and ethics do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America under God's divine guidance and protection.

So much for separation of Church and state. Now, tell us again why pilgrims came to the shores of America. Right: to flee religious oppression.

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It's my Constitution so it's my rules.

That's right. But could you please provide a rationale for the addition to the Preamble that will be written for all Americans and not just those of us who are Christians and/or believers in God. In a previous post an hour or so ago I provided an argument against this, but you are right. It is our Constitution and all points of view deserve to be heard.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

A new improved Constitution would simply make clearer what the Founders actual intent was, namely, to make liberalism illegal. Do you understand?

 

[Foxfyre]

A new improved Constitution would simply make clearer what the Founders actualy intent was, namely, to make liberalism illegal. Do you understand?

Oh lordy, don't say that or we'll have 17 pages of very unpleasant posts re the definition of 'liberalism'.

There was no such thing as 'liberalism' as it is generally understood in modern day America in the 18th century, so the Founders were much more interested in a government that would give the people all the power to govern themselves rather than to be governed by a feudal lord, despot, monarch, pope, or other totalitarian form of government. And the federal government was intended to be mostly limited to a role that would secure their rights so that they would have the liberty to govern themselves.

And yes, my argument is mostly to return to that concept with some things explained better so that opportunists cannot easily corrupt the original intent.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

There was no such thing as 'liberalism' .

of course thats totally idiotic. The philosophy of freedom from big liberal govt was started by Aristotle 2500 years ago and is alive and well today in the Republican/libertarian Party.

Here are some quotes from Jefferson to get you started with an understanding of the Founding:

17)A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor (read-taxes) and bread it has earned -- 18)this is the sum of good government.

-19)Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

-20)History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.

-21)I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

-22)I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

-23)My reading of history convinces me that bad government results from too much government.

-24)Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence.

 

[Foxfyre]

There was no such thing as 'liberalism' .

of course thats totally idiotic. The philosophy of freedom from big liberal govt was started by Aristotle 2500 years ago and is alive and well today in the Republican/libertarian Party.

Put my statement into its full context please before declaring it idiotic.

 

[PratchettFan]

The government has no respect for the law as it is...selectively enforcing or ignoring as suits them...so why would any sane person expect them to have any more respect for changes or additions to the law?

Till you can force the government to abide by the laws we have, this is all nothing but ideological masturbation.

Because of the alternative. I keep saying this because it really is an important point. The government is people. "The government" is really a myth we use, it does not actually exist. What we have is a gathering of people, all working together or at cross purposes, but they are all people. No different than any other people. So the very reason you distrust the government is the reason I distrust any group of people. When you make it difficult or impossible for the government to counteract those others groups, you place your life in the hands of people who not only don't care about it but are in no way capable of being controlled by you. I see that as extremely dangerous.

Nice wall of meaningless words, but I'll play along. Why would you expect people to adhere to new or modified laws when they don't adhere to the existing laws?

Until you can force those people you are working with to actually obey the existing laws, new laws and modifications to the laws exercises in futility. So how about we show that we can hold people accountable for the laws we have before wasting all of our time trying to make modifications or pass new ones. Crazy, I know.

The point of this thread is the creation of a new constitution.

I expect people to use the law in their own self-interest. No matter what system you put in that is going to be the case. What do you suggest? We kill everyone, since that is the only way to get around that problem.

 

[PratchettFan]

A new, improved version would be the original version but with a stipulation that branded America as a Christian nation. Afterall, it was founded by a vast majority of Christians (of varying denominations). What the early Founders were opposed to was a government dominated by a single, particular, or specific denomination.

I think not.

You don't know until you try!

I don't see the point of Christianity and have no desire to try. But thank you for another example of why local governments really need to be subservient.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

There was no such thing as 'liberalism' .

of course thats totally idiotic. The philosophy of freedom from big liberal govt was started by Aristotle 2500 years ago and is alive and well today in the Republican/libertarian Party.

Put my statement into its full context please before declaring it idiotic.

ok I did and it still seems to be idiotic. Our Founders were very very conservative exactly like modern Republicans and libertarians. Big govt Liberals have been with us since Plato and before

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I don't see the point of Christianity

to replace Rome and start civilization.

 

[DriftingSand]

We the people of the Christian United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, and encourage Christian values and ethics do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America under God's divine guidance and protection.

So much for separation of Church and state. Now, tell us again why pilgrims came to the shores of America. Right: to flee religious oppression.

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It's my Constitution so it's my rules.

That's right. But could you please provide a rationale for the addition to the Preamble that will be written for all Americans and not just those of us who are Christians and/or believers in God. In a previous post an hour or so ago I provided an argument against this, but you are right. It is our Constitution and all points of view deserve to be heard.

Here's my rationale: If America followed the biblical tenets of New Testament Christianity we would not only be a more prosperous nation but a GOOD nation. Folks who chose not to adapt to those tenets would be free to form their own nation abroad or seek a more secular nation like Cuba or Russia which would better suit their personal beliefs and needs.

 

[DriftingSand]

A new, improved version would be the original version but with a stipulation that branded America as a Christian nation. Afterall, it was founded by a vast majority of Christians (of varying denominations). What the early Founders were opposed to was a government dominated by a single, particular, or specific denomination.

I think not.

You don't know until you try!

I don't see the point of Christianity and have no desire to try. But thank you for another example of why local governments really need to be subservient.

So you don't want to be "subservient" but you believe that everyone else should be. Thanks for your honest input.

 

[DriftingSand]

We the people of the Christian United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, and encourage Christian values and ethics do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America under God's divine guidance and protection.

So much for separation of Church and state. Now, tell us again why pilgrims came to the shores of America. Right: to flee religious oppression.

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

Oh ... and one more thing ... the original intent was to protect religion from Government but not necessarily the other way around. The original Congress was wholly Christian and even sponsored the printing of the first Bible printed in America. That's a fact, jack.

This exhibition demonstrates that many of the colonies that in 1776 became the United States of America were settled by men and women of deep religious convictions who in the seventeenth century crossed the Atlantic Ocean to practice their faith freely. That the religious intensity of the original settlers would diminish to some extent over time was perhaps to be expected, but new waves of eighteenth century immigrants brought their own religious fervor across the Atlantic and the nation's first major religious revival in the middle of the eighteenth century injected new vigor into American religion. The result was that a religious people rose in rebellion against Great Britain in 1776, and that most American statesmen, when they began to form new governments at the state and national levels, shared the convictions of most of their constituents that religion was, to quote Alexis de Tocqueville's observation, indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. The efforts of the Founders of the American nation to define the role of religious faith in public life and the degree to which it could be supported by public officials that was not inconsistent with the revolutionary imperatives of the equality and freedom of all citizens is the central question which this exhibition explores.

Religion and the Founding of the American Republic Exhibitions Library of Congress

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war. Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people. This agreement stipulated that they "should be prosperous or afflicted, according as their general Obedience or Disobedience thereto appears." Wars and revolutions were, accordingly, considered afflictions, as divine punishments for sin, from which a nation could rescue itself by repentance and reformation.

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic Exhibitions Library of Congress

 

[Foxfyre]

We the people of the Christian United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, and encourage Christian values and ethics do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America under God's divine guidance and protection.

So much for separation of Church and state. Now, tell us again why pilgrims came to the shores of America. Right: to flee religious oppression.

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

It's my Constitution so it's my rules.

That's right. But could you please provide a rationale for the addition to the Preamble that will be written for all Americans and not just those of us who are Christians and/or believers in God. In a previous post an hour or so ago I provided an argument against this, but you are right. It is our Constitution and all points of view deserve to be heard.

Here's my rationale: If America followed the biblical tenets of New Testament Christianity we would not only be a more prosperous nation but a GOOD nation. Folks who chose not to adapt to those tenets would be free to form their own nation abroad or seek a more secular nation like Cuba or Russia which would better suit their personal beliefs and needs.

The problem with your rationale though is that history doesn't really bear it out. The Constitutional provisions that recognized and protected the people's free exercise of their religious faith was unprecedented in scope in world history and did allow the people to promote a culture that made us the most free and most benevolent people on earth. But it also allowed the people to be punished in the Puritan stocks and it allowed for the Salem witch burnings. But as the Founders predicted would happen with a free people, those kinds of societies would soon reform themselves and dissolve the little theocracies that promoted such injustice. Just as the more lawless societies like Deadwood would eventually weary of the meanness and uncertainties that promoted and established new social contracts to create more peaceful societies.

We cannot have liberty alongside a mandate of what biblical tenets of New Testament Christianity must be.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Here's my rationale: If America followed the biblical tenets of New Testament Christianity we would not only be a more prosperous nation but a GOOD nation. .

yes lets not forget the most important work of the 20th Century by Max Weber The Protestant Ethic and the Spirt of Capitalism. It was well understood that working hard to create a business,jobs, and products was Christian and basic to survival.

Some, Calvinists, even saw it as insuring higher place in heaven.

 

[Foxfyre]

We the people of the Christian United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, and encourage Christian values and ethics do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America under God's divine guidance and protection.

So much for separation of Church and state. Now, tell us again why pilgrims came to the shores of America. Right: to flee religious oppression.

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

Oh ... and one more thing ... the original intent was to protect religion from Government but not necessarily the other way around. The original Congress was wholly Christian and even sponsored the printing of the first Bible printed in America. That's a fact, jack.

This exhibition demonstrates that many of the colonies that in 1776 became the United States of America were settled by men and women of deep religious convictions who in the seventeenth century crossed the Atlantic Ocean to practice their faith freely. That the religious intensity of the original settlers would diminish to some extent over time was perhaps to be expected, but new waves of eighteenth century immigrants brought their own religious fervor across the Atlantic and the nation's first major religious revival in the middle of the eighteenth century injected new vigor into American religion. The result was that a religious people rose in rebellion against Great Britain in 1776, and that most American statesmen, when they began to form new governments at the state and national levels, shared the convictions of most of their constituents that religion was, to quote Alexis de Tocqueville's observation, indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. The efforts of the Founders of the American nation to define the role of religious faith in public life and the degree to which it could be supported by public officials that was not inconsistent with the revolutionary imperatives of the equality and freedom of all citizens is the central question which this exhibition explores.

Religion and the Founding of the American Republic Exhibitions Library of Congress

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war. Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people. This agreement stipulated that they "should be prosperous or afflicted, according as their general Obedience or Disobedience thereto appears." Wars and revolutions were, accordingly, considered afflictions, as divine punishments for sin, from which a nation could rescue itself by repentance and reformation.

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic Exhibitions Library of Congress

Promoted the first printing along with a Congressional resolution that it would be the recommended version in public schools - BUT - not a dime of public money was invested in that project and there was no government mandate of what any school must do. You are quite right that members of Congress were free to be as religious as they wished to be--they held worship services in the halls of Congress--but they were prevented by the Constitution from imposing their religious faith on each other or anybody else and participation in such activities were purely voluntary. And they took away absolutely nothing from the people.

 

[Foxfyre]

Here's my rationale: If America followed the biblical tenets of New Testament Christianity we would not only be a more prosperous nation but a GOOD nation. .

yes lets not forget the most important work of the 20th Century by Max Weber The Protestant Ethic and the Spirt of Capitalism. It was well understood that working hard to create a business,jobs, and products was Christian and basic to survival.

Some, Calvinists, even saw it as insuring higher place in heaven.

The Constitution allowed Weber complete freedom to believe what he believed and put what he believed into a book. But what does that have to do with what is or should be in the Constitution?