A Prediction. The Dems will romp in the next election.

[The Rabbi]

Build a fence, mine it, turn America into a police state.

Is protecting your borders a police state? If true, we already are a police state.

Mark

Protecting the border is not the same as militarizing it. Look at places that have high walls, mines and soldiers trained to shoot. China. North Korea. The old Soviet Union. Is that really what we want here?
Change the law so people who legitimately want to come here to work can. That will cut illegal crossings by a serious magnitude.

Um, those walls are used to keep their people in. Not a valid comparison.

Mark

It prevents free movement of people, which is a basic conservative principle.

Open borders is not a conservative principle.

Never said it was.
Strawman argument.
Rabbi Rules!

 

[bripat9643]

border fence is up ... errrr, surf is up ... swim around Juan the rest of the fence is complete.

How stupid do you imagine people are? How hard would it be to put a guard tower at the end of the fence and arrest anyone coming around?

Would make perfect sense! We spend how much on defense???

We're talking about Homeland Security, here, not the Defense Dept. How much would it cost to have a single guard in a single guard tower?

 

[westwall]

The GOP doesnt have to do anything on immigration. They probably will. And with any luck they will dodge the two extremes. Those would be the "Build a bigger fence and deport all illegals" on one side and "let everyone in and sign them up for welfare at the door" on the other.

I say let them in and let them work, no welfare for them, no welfare for any American that refuses a job an immigrant applies for.

If we can track every Americans entire medical life through PP/ACA, we can keep track of who wants to work, and who wants to starve.

OK so you're basically in favor of documenting every American as well. Because you can't really distinguish an illegal immigrant from a legal American any other way.

Every American is already documented at the State level. What we don't have is a national data base. That's all you need is the State level ID's. The criminal element would be the easiest to send back, obviously. But the rest aren't nearly as hard as you think. Additionally the majority of identity theft in this country is to support the illegal population. My social security number is being used by 7
illegals as it is. Every one of them is committing a crime in addition to their merely being here. That shit needs to stop.

OK so you want a Nazi or Soviet style system where every American is able to tracked via unique IDs. And you expect that the goverment, which never abuses its power via the IRS, ICE, EPA or Dept of Labor will also not abuse this information.
No thanks.

Where did I say that? I said the STATE level ID's and drivers licenses that we already have, are plenty. We don't need a national ID to accomplish the goal.

 

[ScienceRocks]

And even the state level id's are now racist. This is what the upcoming Att general just said.

I bet building a fence across our border is also racist!

 

[80zephyr]

Immigrants are a much better deal than our under-educated trash classes that want to sit on their asses.

If the GOP offered a comprehensive immigration program with a sealed border and made it public, Obama would sign it.

So then, why do we persist in allowing them to sit on their ass? Hunger is a strong motivator to work.

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

OK. What do I think it would cost? Billions less than we spend every year supporting the illegals that are here. Do you think thats a fair trade off?

Mark

The cost of illegal immigration is not easily determined. Plenty of sources say we actually come out better. So we would be spending trillions, because we already spend billions, on something that will bring no real benefit.

Studies huh? You're right. Some studies say that illegals are a net gain to the economy. When I hear differing opinions on a problem, I stand back, open my eyes, and let reality sink in.

Know what reality tells me? That if our own poor are a net drag on society, the illegal poor will be as well. Until someone can point out to me how having more uneducated, poor folks in our country is a help, I will continue to let reality be my guide.

Mark

You missed the fact that most illegals are working jobs and earning money.

No, I didn't. Unless they earn middle class pay, at the very least, they become a net drain. Just like poor Americans with jobs are.

Mark

And yet one of the complaints is illegals send millions of dollars back home. Where do you think they got millions of dollars from? They stole it?

Are you really trying to say that our government forces our poor to spend their own money on their welfare? Are you also trying to say that the illegals make so much money, that they are a net gain to our society?

I want proof. I want a link. I want you to show me that they make more than enough to be a net gain, because if they are uneducated and can do it, we should scrap our welfare system today.

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

As the GOP takes control of both Houses, we have a president that is forcing them to get immigration reform done or he will take unilateral action.

My prediction is that the GOP controlled Congress will send Obama a bill he will sign, that will include some kind of path to citizenship for those illegals already here.

In conservative circles, immigration is a hot button issue. If passed a good many people will either break away from the GOP and form a new party to combat the "Democratic Lite" GOP party, or they will refuse to vote for them in 2016. With this type of split, the Dems are virtually guaranteed to win almost every race.

My hope is that the GOP see's this issue as being absolutely crucial to their hold on power, and they don't do what I think they are going to.

Mark

The democrats claimed that the republicans were done in 2008 that the party was over and would never win another election. Lets see? How did that work out again?

They were wrong. But in this case, they would be committing suicide. If even 10% of conservatives refused to back them, they would probably lose 80% of the races.

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

border fence is up ... errrr, surf is up ... swim around Juan the rest of the fence is complete.

How stupid do you imagine people are? How hard would it be to put a guard tower at the end of the fence and arrest anyone coming around?

Would make perfect sense! We spend how much on defense???

We're talking about Homeland Security, here, not the Defense Dept. How much would it cost to have a single guard in a single guard tower?

My guess is the cost would be much less than covering schooling, medical, welfare, etc. that immigrants suck out of our system.

Agree?

Mark

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Thats not an answer to my question.

OK. What do I think it would cost? Billions less than we spend every year supporting the illegals that are here. Do you think thats a fair trade off?

Mark

The cost of illegal immigration is not easily determined. Plenty of sources say we actually come out better. So we would be spending trillions, because we already spend billions, on something that will bring no real benefit.

Studies huh? You're right. Some studies say that illegals are a net gain to the economy. When I hear differing opinions on a problem, I stand back, open my eyes, and let reality sink in.

Know what reality tells me? That if our own poor are a net drag on society, the illegal poor will be as well. Until someone can point out to me how having more uneducated, poor folks in our country is a help, I will continue to let reality be my guide.

Mark

Prove that "our own poor" are a "net drag" on the economy.

You're kidding, right? Welfare programs, food stamps, tax breaks, etc. provide a safety net for the poor. As a matter of fact, MOST Americans are a net drain on our "welfare state". The poorer you are the worse it is, obviously.

Mark

Prove that a safety net for the poor is a "net drain" on the economy.

Keep in mind that "the economy" is not the same as "the government's bank accounts".

 

[The Rabbi]

The cost of illegal immigration is not easily determined. Plenty of sources say we actually come out better. So we would be spending trillions, because we already spend billions, on something that will bring no real benefit.

Studies huh? You're right. Some studies say that illegals are a net gain to the economy. When I hear differing opinions on a problem, I stand back, open my eyes, and let reality sink in.

Know what reality tells me? That if our own poor are a net drag on society, the illegal poor will be as well. Until someone can point out to me how having more uneducated, poor folks in our country is a help, I will continue to let reality be my guide.

Mark

You missed the fact that most illegals are working jobs and earning money.

No, I didn't. Unless they earn middle class pay, at the very least, they become a net drain. Just like poor Americans with jobs are.

Mark

And yet one of the complaints is illegals send millions of dollars back home. Where do you think they got millions of dollars from? They stole it?

Are you really trying to say that our government forces our poor to spend their own money on their welfare? Are you also trying to say that the illegals make so much money, that they are a net gain to our society?

I want proof. I want a link. I want you to show me that they make more than enough to be a net gain, because if they are uneducated and can do it, we should scrap our welfare system today.

Mark

What I wrote should be pretty self explanatory. If it is not evident to you there is no point continuing the conversation.
Again, an often heard complaint is illegals send millions of dollars back to their home countries. If so how can they be a net drain?
And yes, we should scrap our welfare system. Not today. But yesterday.

 

[The Rabbi]

OK. What do I think it would cost? Billions less than we spend every year supporting the illegals that are here. Do you think thats a fair trade off?

Mark

The cost of illegal immigration is not easily determined. Plenty of sources say we actually come out better. So we would be spending trillions, because we already spend billions, on something that will bring no real benefit.

Studies huh? You're right. Some studies say that illegals are a net gain to the economy. When I hear differing opinions on a problem, I stand back, open my eyes, and let reality sink in.

Know what reality tells me? That if our own poor are a net drag on society, the illegal poor will be as well. Until someone can point out to me how having more uneducated, poor folks in our country is a help, I will continue to let reality be my guide.

Mark

Prove that "our own poor" are a "net drag" on the economy.

You're kidding, right? Welfare programs, food stamps, tax breaks, etc. provide a safety net for the poor. As a matter of fact, MOST Americans are a net drain on our "welfare state". The poorer you are the worse it is, obviously.

Mark

Prove that a safety net for the poor is a "net drain" on the economy.

Keep in mind that "the economy" is not the same as "the government's bank accounts".

Well it depends on what you mean by "the poor." If you mean people who are not working and dependent on gov't programs for subsistence then it is obvious they are a drain on the economy. How do they contribute otherwise?

 

[80zephyr]

OK. What do I think it would cost? Billions less than we spend every year supporting the illegals that are here. Do you think thats a fair trade off?

Mark

The cost of illegal immigration is not easily determined. Plenty of sources say we actually come out better. So we would be spending trillions, because we already spend billions, on something that will bring no real benefit.

Studies huh? You're right. Some studies say that illegals are a net gain to the economy. When I hear differing opinions on a problem, I stand back, open my eyes, and let reality sink in.

Know what reality tells me? That if our own poor are a net drag on society, the illegal poor will be as well. Until someone can point out to me how having more uneducated, poor folks in our country is a help, I will continue to let reality be my guide.

Mark

Prove that "our own poor" are a "net drag" on the economy.

You're kidding, right? Welfare programs, food stamps, tax breaks, etc. provide a safety net for the poor. As a matter of fact, MOST Americans are a net drain on our "welfare state". The poorer you are the worse it is, obviously.

Mark

Prove that a safety net for the poor is a "net drain" on the economy.

Keep in mind that "the economy" is not the same as "the government's bank accounts".

"The economy" is the sum total of all economic activity. Those government "bank accounts" are part and parcel of that total, and what happens to them has a direct affect on our economy.

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

Studies huh? You're right. Some studies say that illegals are a net gain to the economy. When I hear differing opinions on a problem, I stand back, open my eyes, and let reality sink in.

Know what reality tells me? That if our own poor are a net drag on society, the illegal poor will be as well. Until someone can point out to me how having more uneducated, poor folks in our country is a help, I will continue to let reality be my guide.

Mark

You missed the fact that most illegals are working jobs and earning money.

No, I didn't. Unless they earn middle class pay, at the very least, they become a net drain. Just like poor Americans with jobs are.

Mark

And yet one of the complaints is illegals send millions of dollars back home. Where do you think they got millions of dollars from? They stole it?

Are you really trying to say that our government forces our poor to spend their own money on their welfare? Are you also trying to say that the illegals make so much money, that they are a net gain to our society?

I want proof. I want a link. I want you to show me that they make more than enough to be a net gain, because if they are uneducated and can do it, we should scrap our welfare system today.

Mark

What I wrote should be pretty self explanatory. If it is not evident to you there is no point continuing the conversation.
Again, an often heard complaint is illegals send millions of dollars back to their home countries. If so how can they be a net drain?
And yes, we should scrap our welfare system. Not today. But yesterday.

I don't see why this is hard to understand. If an illegal gets paid "under the table" for work, he sends the money home. Since the government doesn't know about that money, he gets government help.

Oh, BTW, every dollar he sends home is also a drain on our economy, so its a double whammy.

Mark

 

[The Rabbi]

You missed the fact that most illegals are working jobs and earning money.

No, I didn't. Unless they earn middle class pay, at the very least, they become a net drain. Just like poor Americans with jobs are.

Mark

And yet one of the complaints is illegals send millions of dollars back home. Where do you think they got millions of dollars from? They stole it?

Are you really trying to say that our government forces our poor to spend their own money on their welfare? Are you also trying to say that the illegals make so much money, that they are a net gain to our society?

I want proof. I want a link. I want you to show me that they make more than enough to be a net gain, because if they are uneducated and can do it, we should scrap our welfare system today.

Mark

What I wrote should be pretty self explanatory. If it is not evident to you there is no point continuing the conversation.
Again, an often heard complaint is illegals send millions of dollars back to their home countries. If so how can they be a net drain?
And yes, we should scrap our welfare system. Not today. But yesterday.

I don't see why this is hard to understand. If an illegal gets paid "under the table" for work, he sends the money home. Since the government doesn't know about that money, he gets government help.

Oh, BTW, every dollar he sends home is also a drain on our economy, so its a double whammy.

Mark

You understand that with some exceptions illegals are not eligible for government help, right?

 

[JakeStarkey]

That's why ^^^ #150 The Rabbii is considered a babbler.

 

[Two Thumbs]

As the GOP takes control of both Houses, we have a president that is forcing them to get immigration reform done or he will take unilateral action.

My prediction is that the GOP controlled Congress will send Obama a bill he will sign, that will include some kind of path to citizenship for those illegals already here.

In conservative circles, immigration is a hot button issue. If passed a good many people will either break away from the GOP and form a new party to combat the "Democratic Lite" GOP party, or they will refuse to vote for them in 2016. With this type of split, the Dems are virtually guaranteed to win almost every race.

My hope is that the GOP see's this issue as being absolutely crucial to their hold on power, and they don't do what I think they are going to.

Mark

That might work, but I think long term the gop will hold the House for a long time while trading Congress back and forth. The WH is lost for the next 3 cycles

 

[Roadrunner]

As the GOP takes control of both Houses, we have a president that is forcing them to get immigration reform done or he will take unilateral action.

My prediction is that the GOP controlled Congress will send Obama a bill he will sign, that will include some kind of path to citizenship for those illegals already here.

In conservative circles, immigration is a hot button issue. If passed a good many people will either break away from the GOP and form a new party to combat the "Democratic Lite" GOP party, or they will refuse to vote for them in 2016. With this type of split, the Dems are virtually guaranteed to win almost every race.

My hope is that the GOP see's this issue as being absolutely crucial to their hold on power, and they don't do what I think they are going to.

Mark

That might work, but I think long term the gop will hold the House for a long time while trading Congress back and forth. The WH is lost for the next 3 cycles

"Hold the House for a long time while trading Congress back and forth?"

What a prime example of American Idol Nation idiocy.

The House is a part of Congress.

Congress is the House of Representatives AND the Senate.

I guess you meant to say trading the Senate back and forth, but, just don't have the knowledge to express yourself.

Very grating on the nerves to read shit like that.

 

[80zephyr]

No, I didn't. Unless they earn middle class pay, at the very least, they become a net drain. Just like poor Americans with jobs are.

Mark

And yet one of the complaints is illegals send millions of dollars back home. Where do you think they got millions of dollars from? They stole it?

Are you really trying to say that our government forces our poor to spend their own money on their welfare? Are you also trying to say that the illegals make so much money, that they are a net gain to our society?

I want proof. I want a link. I want you to show me that they make more than enough to be a net gain, because if they are uneducated and can do it, we should scrap our welfare system today.

Mark

What I wrote should be pretty self explanatory. If it is not evident to you there is no point continuing the conversation.
Again, an often heard complaint is illegals send millions of dollars back to their home countries. If so how can they be a net drain?
And yes, we should scrap our welfare system. Not today. But yesterday.

I don't see why this is hard to understand. If an illegal gets paid "under the table" for work, he sends the money home. Since the government doesn't know about that money, he gets government help.

Oh, BTW, every dollar he sends home is also a drain on our economy, so its a double whammy.

Mark

You understand that with some exceptions illegals are not eligible for government help, right?

Yep. I also understand that an anchor baby changes the picture.

Mark

 

[The Rabbi]

And yet one of the complaints is illegals send millions of dollars back home. Where do you think they got millions of dollars from? They stole it?

Are you really trying to say that our government forces our poor to spend their own money on their welfare? Are you also trying to say that the illegals make so much money, that they are a net gain to our society?

I want proof. I want a link. I want you to show me that they make more than enough to be a net gain, because if they are uneducated and can do it, we should scrap our welfare system today.

Mark

What I wrote should be pretty self explanatory. If it is not evident to you there is no point continuing the conversation.
Again, an often heard complaint is illegals send millions of dollars back to their home countries. If so how can they be a net drain?
And yes, we should scrap our welfare system. Not today. But yesterday.

I don't see why this is hard to understand. If an illegal gets paid "under the table" for work, he sends the money home. Since the government doesn't know about that money, he gets government help.

Oh, BTW, every dollar he sends home is also a drain on our economy, so its a double whammy.

Mark

You understand that with some exceptions illegals are not eligible for government help, right?

Yep. I also understand that an anchor baby changes the picture.

Mark

Lets move those goalposts, shall we?

The truth is our immigration system is worthless. It runs at odds to the reality of our economy and creates gross inefficiencies. Businesses that need highly skilled workers from overseas are starved of talent, while agriculture loses money for lack of affordable labor. The system incentivizes cheating and encourages permanent settlement here instead of the temporary residence many immigrants would probably prefer. Start with replacing this crap system and the trillions contemplated for creating a police state will become unnecessary.

 

[80zephyr]

Are you really trying to say that our government forces our poor to spend their own money on their welfare? Are you also trying to say that the illegals make so much money, that they are a net gain to our society?

I want proof. I want a link. I want you to show me that they make more than enough to be a net gain, because if they are uneducated and can do it, we should scrap our welfare system today.

Mark

What I wrote should be pretty self explanatory. If it is not evident to you there is no point continuing the conversation.
Again, an often heard complaint is illegals send millions of dollars back to their home countries. If so how can they be a net drain?
And yes, we should scrap our welfare system. Not today. But yesterday.

I don't see why this is hard to understand. If an illegal gets paid "under the table" for work, he sends the money home. Since the government doesn't know about that money, he gets government help.

Oh, BTW, every dollar he sends home is also a drain on our economy, so its a double whammy.

Mark

You understand that with some exceptions illegals are not eligible for government help, right?

Yep. I also understand that an anchor baby changes the picture.

Mark

Lets move those goalposts, shall we?

The truth is our immigration system is worthless. It runs at odds to the reality of our economy and creates gross inefficiencies. Businesses that need highly skilled workers from overseas are starved of talent, while agriculture loses money for lack of affordable labor. The system incentivizes cheating and encourages permanent settlement here instead of the temporary residence many immigrants would probably prefer. Start with replacing this crap system and the trillions contemplated for creating a police state will become unnecessary.

In the "old days" you would have a point. Since the dawn of the welfare state, people that get here understand that they live a life not possible "back home".

So they stay. Illegally.

So, I'll ask, replace this "crap" system with what?


Mark