A Tea Party Wants Mandatory Christmas Carols In Public Schools

[Foxfyre]

since its clear no one can explain to me why the carols would be unconstitutional....its time to see what the court has said:

To forbid the use of this one passive symbol - the creche - at the very time people are taking note of the season with Christmas hymns and carols in public schools and other public places, and while the Congress and legislatures open sessions with prayers by paid chaplains, would be a stilted overreaction contrary to our history and to our holdings. If the presence of the creche in this display violates the Establishment Clause, a host of other forms of taking official note of Christmas, and of our religious heritage, are equally offensive to the Constitution.

LYNCH v. DONNELLY, 465 U.S. 668 (1984)

while not a direct holding on christmas carols...i dare say this dicta would weigh heavily in any court's decision re christmas carols....at the court clearly doesn't have a problem with christmas carols in public schools

The problem is a THREAT of a lawsuit over this stuff. Because of a particularly onerous and stupid law on the federal books, an organization like the ACLU gets reimbursed by the taxpayer for their costs whenever they file or defend any kind of civil rights action. First Amendment violations would be included in that. So, all they have to do is encourage, bribe, or pay somebody to be a plaintiff, file the suit, and they will invariably settle out of court but only after the entity sued has incurred a good deal of legal costs. The ACLU gets paid win or lose so they don't care.

So, to avoid incurring a stack of legal costs defending a lawsuit, no matter how little merit it might have, schools take the threat of lawsuit very seriously and go to great lengths to be absolutely politically correct which means no Christmas in most cases. The school board gives orders to the superintendent who in turn directs the principals to watch it, and that's how the school choir director winds up with rules that he can only have so many Christmas carols or no Christmas carols in the winter concert. It is no longer called a Christmas concert.

And I just wonder how many of you are as appalled that it has come to this as I am?

 

[Yurt]

another case supporting christmas carols:

Florey v. Sioux Falls School District 49-5, 619 F.2d 1311 (8th Cir.), cert denied, 449 U.S. 987 (1980).


it being entirely clear to us that carols have achieved a cultural significance that justifies their being sung in the public schools of Sioux Falls, South Dakota, if done in accordance with the policy and rules adopted by that school district. (FN 5)


good case to read if you really want to get the nuts and bolts about christmas carols and our public schools....

and again, if anyone can show me how the initiative violates the constitution, i'm all ears....i've now given you some cases....so hopefully we can dispense with "retard" only comments and have some constructive debate on the issue

 

[Ravi]

And I just wonder how many of you are as appalled that it has come to this as I am?

That we have to follow the constitution? No, I am not appalled at all.

 

[bodecea]

Who is stopping the kids from singing carols now? Looks like the crazy cons want to take time out of the school day for the kids to sing these fairy tale songs, school is for reading and writing, kids can sing on their own time.

you must of had a shitty time in school at Christmas time Noose.....for christ sakes they only sing this stuff around Christmas week....it isnt interfering with anyones education....its called having a little fun singing songs about Santa,which im sure 95 % of the kids enjoy...take the stick out of your ass dude...liten up...

How many non-Christian children and families have you polled in this case?

 

[NYcarbineer]

asked and answered over half a dozen times....your idiocy is knows no bounds

You have not cited a single case.

thats because your question is a fucking strawman...i've already answered your strawman to humor you, but you keep ignoring it....you keep asking it as if this proves you right....it doesn't...just because you don't like my previous answers doesn't mean you haven't been answer you dishonest hack

You said that Christianity was distinct from other religions in this country because Christmas is a national holiday. I'm asking you for legal evidence of that. You have none.

Case closed.

 

[NYcarbineer]

On December 6, 1999, Federal District Judge Susan J. Dlott granted our motion to dismiss the case [challenging the constitutionality of Christmas being recognized as a federal holiday].. In her decision, she wrote, "The Court holds that under Sixth Circuit and Supreme Court precedent the establishment of Christmas Day as a legal public holiday does not violate the Establishment Clause because it has a valid secular purpose, it does not have the effect of endorsing religion in general or Christianity in particular, and it does not impermissibly cause excessive entanglement between church and state."

the case you're talking about, which you failed to cite is....Ganulin v. United States, 71 F. Supp. 2d 824

you probably don't even realize that you've just helped my position by finally presenting this case, though i admit, i didn't expect it to come from you, i think its possible you don't actually realize what this case actually did....i've been waiting for someone to show me why the initiative as proposed is unconstitutional....yet not a single person has (and ravi's continually you're retarded doesn't count)....you've unwittingly shown that the initiative has a decent chance of passing the lemon test...

thank you

I didn't cite it to help you. I cited it because it's a fact. It's not relevant to this case.

I'm still waiting for small government conservatives to tell me why they want this decision taken away from school boards and put in the hands of the State.

 

[NYcarbineer]

since its clear no one can explain to me why the carols would be unconstitutional....its time to see what the court has said:

To forbid the use of this one passive symbol - the creche - at the very time people are taking note of the season with Christmas hymns and carols in public schools and other public places, and while the Congress and legislatures open sessions with prayers by paid chaplains, would be a stilted overreaction contrary to our history and to our holdings. If the presence of the creche in this display violates the Establishment Clause, a host of other forms of taking official note of Christmas, and of our religious heritage, are equally offensive to the Constitution.

LYNCH v. DONNELLY, 465 U.S. 668 (1984)

while not a direct holding on christmas carols...i dare say this dicta would weigh heavily in any court's decision re christmas carols....at the court clearly doesn't have a problem with christmas carols in public schools

Ban on Christmas music in school upheld, last month, 3rd circuit court of appeals:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/3rd/083826p.pdf

 

[Yurt]

since its clear no one can explain to me why the carols would be unconstitutional....its time to see what the court has said:

To forbid the use of this one passive symbol - the creche - at the very time people are taking note of the season with Christmas hymns and carols in public schools and other public places, and while the Congress and legislatures open sessions with prayers by paid chaplains, would be a stilted overreaction contrary to our history and to our holdings. If the presence of the creche in this display violates the Establishment Clause, a host of other forms of taking official note of Christmas, and of our religious heritage, are equally offensive to the Constitution.

LYNCH v. DONNELLY, 465 U.S. 668 (1984)

while not a direct holding on christmas carols...i dare say this dicta would weigh heavily in any court's decision re christmas carols....at the court clearly doesn't have a problem with christmas carols in public schools

Ban on Christmas music in school upheld, last month, 3rd circuit court of appeals:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/3rd/083826p.pdf

do you even realize the school later amended their policy and now allows christmas music....and that their policy only limits christmas music or holiday music at the time of the holiday...

Moreover, the District Court also noted that “[a]lthough
the interpretation of Policy 2270 restricts the performance of
holiday music during the December concerts, music teachers
have indicated that they continue to teach those songs in the
classroom . . . and Director of Fine Arts Santoro has confirmed
the appropriateness of this practice.”

“Given the continued performance of religious songs
and the continued teaching of holiday music in the classroom,
the objective observer would not determine that the
implementation of Policy 2270 . . . sends a message of
disapproval of religion.” Id

further, this court's reasoning is unpersuasive, in fact it smacks of the same reasoning as the firefighter case where the government must have a strong basis in evidence for the fear of litigation...the court did not say they had a strong basis in evidence....so its possible this part will be overturned

there appears to be a split in the circuits and given the recent scotus case re the firefighters, i highly doubt this case would be upheld in scotus....and its clear this case was filed before that decision and it doesn't appear either side used the ricci case....

good case though, but i am not sure it will upheld....looks like this issue could end up on the scotus

 

[Yurt]

On December 6, 1999, Federal District Judge Susan J. Dlott granted our motion to dismiss the case [challenging the constitutionality of Christmas being recognized as a federal holiday].. In her decision, she wrote, "The Court holds that under Sixth Circuit and Supreme Court precedent the establishment of Christmas Day as a legal public holiday does not violate the Establishment Clause because it has a valid secular purpose, it does not have the effect of endorsing religion in general or Christianity in particular, and it does not impermissibly cause excessive entanglement between church and state."

the case you're talking about, which you failed to cite is....Ganulin v. United States, 71 F. Supp. 2d 824

you probably don't even realize that you've just helped my position by finally presenting this case, though i admit, i didn't expect it to come from you, i think its possible you don't actually realize what this case actually did....i've been waiting for someone to show me why the initiative as proposed is unconstitutional....yet not a single person has (and ravi's continually you're retarded doesn't count)....you've unwittingly shown that the initiative has a decent chance of passing the lemon test...

thank you

I didn't cite it to help you. I cited it because it's a fact. It's not relevant to this case.

I'm still waiting for small government conservatives to tell me why they want this decision taken away from school boards and put in the hands of the State.

lol....because it helps this case, its now not relevant, yet you cited it to bolster your argument

i fail to see how taking the authority away from school boards and giving the authority to the community/students is against small government....and again, by state do you mean the courts? you're not making sense....

 

[Yurt]

And I just wonder how many of you are as appalled that it has come to this as I am?

That we have to follow the constitution? No, I am not appalled at all.

is anyone surprised ravi once again failed to actually debate the constitutionality of this?

 

[Yurt]

You have not cited a single case.

thats because your question is a fucking strawman...i've already answered your strawman to humor you, but you keep ignoring it....you keep asking it as if this proves you right....it doesn't...just because you don't like my previous answers doesn't mean you haven't been answer you dishonest hack

You said that Christianity was distinct from other religions in this country because Christmas is a national holiday. I'm asking you for legal evidence of that. You have none.

Case closed.

you're a liar, i never said christianity was distinct

 

[NYcarbineer]

since its clear no one can explain to me why the carols would be unconstitutional....its time to see what the court has said:

To forbid the use of this one passive symbol - the creche - at the very time people are taking note of the season with Christmas hymns and carols in public schools and other public places, and while the Congress and legislatures open sessions with prayers by paid chaplains, would be a stilted overreaction contrary to our history and to our holdings. If the presence of the creche in this display violates the Establishment Clause, a host of other forms of taking official note of Christmas, and of our religious heritage, are equally offensive to the Constitution.

LYNCH v. DONNELLY, 465 U.S. 668 (1984)

while not a direct holding on christmas carols...i dare say this dicta would weigh heavily in any court's decision re christmas carols....at the court clearly doesn't have a problem with christmas carols in public schools

Ban on Christmas music in school upheld, last month, 3rd circuit court of appeals:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/3rd/083826p.pdf

do you even realize the school later amended their policy and now allows christmas music....and that their policy only limits christmas music or holiday music at the time of the holiday...

Moreover, the District Court also noted that “[a]lthough
the interpretation of Policy 2270 restricts the performance of
holiday music during the December concerts, music teachers
have indicated that they continue to teach those songs in the
classroom . . . and Director of Fine Arts Santoro has confirmed
the appropriateness of this practice.”

“Given the continued performance of religious songs
and the continued teaching of holiday music in the classroom,
the objective observer would not determine that the
implementation of Policy 2270 . . . sends a message of
disapproval of religion.” Id

further, this court's reasoning is unpersuasive, in fact it smacks of the same reasoning as the firefighter case where the government must have a strong basis in evidence for the fear of litigation...the court did not say they had a strong basis in evidence....so its possible this part will be overturned

there appears to be a split in the circuits and given the recent scotus case re the firefighters, i highly doubt this case would be upheld in scotus....and its clear this case was filed before that decision and it doesn't appear either side used the ricci case....

good case though, but i am not sure it will upheld....looks like this issue could end up on the scotus

So the courts have decided that you may have Christmas music, or you may not have Christmas music, your choice.

So why not leave it up to the individual school districts and school boards to make that choice?

 

[NYcarbineer]

thats because your question is a fucking strawman...i've already answered your strawman to humor you, but you keep ignoring it....you keep asking it as if this proves you right....it doesn't...just because you don't like my previous answers doesn't mean you haven't been answer you dishonest hack

You said that Christianity was distinct from other religions in this country because Christmas is a national holiday. I'm asking you for legal evidence of that. You have none.

Case closed.

you're a liar, i never said christianity was distinct

You need to go back and read your own post #47 for starters.

I swear I don't know why in the world people think they can deny what they've said on a message board when it's all on record for all to see. What IS that affliction?

 

[Yurt]

You said that Christianity was distinct from other religions in this country because Christmas is a national holiday. I'm asking you for legal evidence of that. You have none.

Case closed.

you're a liar, i never said christianity was distinct

You need to go back and read your own post #47 for starters.

I swear I don't know why in the world people think they can deny what they've said on a message board when it's all on record for all to see. What IS that affliction?

liar...i never said what you claimed

 

[Modbert]

I see Carb posting evidence, Yurt calling people liars.

 

[bodecea]

they are mandating an option,, don't want your kids to hear about religious songs,,send them to study hall. See? Other people are now tired of your mandating what they can and cannot sing.

Then they also need to provide an option to hear Islamic chants for Ramadan and Jewish chants for any Jewish holiday. Maybe a Buddha in the cafeteria and a sacred cow on the playground. Or face litigation if they do not.

are those national holidays ravi?

As opposed to a CHRISTIAN national holiday?

 

[NYcarbineer]

you're a liar, i never said christianity was distinct

You need to go back and read your own post #47 for starters.

I swear I don't know why in the world people think they can deny what they've said on a message board when it's all on record for all to see. What IS that affliction?

liar...i never said what you claimed

You never claimed a distinction between Christianity and Buddhism, Judaism in this thread, as part of your argument? Are you sure?

 

[Yurt]

I see Carb posting evidence, Yurt calling people liars.

lmao...what evidence? be specific

 

[Yurt]

Then they also need to provide an option to hear Islamic chants for Ramadan and Jewish chants for any Jewish holiday. Maybe a Buddha in the cafeteria and a sacred cow on the playground. Or face litigation if they do not.

are those national holidays ravi?

As opposed to a CHRISTIAN national holiday?

well...according to the courts and the liberals, it is no longer a christian federal or state holiday....

 

[Yurt]

You need to go back and read your own post #47 for starters.

I swear I don't know why in the world people think they can deny what they've said on a message board when it's all on record for all to see. What IS that affliction?

liar...i never said what you claimed

You never claimed a distinction between Christianity and Buddhism, Judaism in this thread, as part of your argument? Are you sure?

absolutely....i never said there was a distinction....you're confusing yourself....of course judiasm is distinct from christianity and vica versa, but you're claiming i said christianity enjoyed distinction due to christmas....i never said that and you have yet to provide evidence i did say that....

i is simply claimed factual that christmas was a christian holiday, but now the courts and liberals claim it is not....if you actually read what i said, my point all along has been the denial to sing about a federal or state holiday....

perhaps you would like to actually discuss the topic again...maybe respond to my reply about your 3rd circuit case....or are you really going to focus on this non issue?