Agriculture Runoff Is Not Pollution

[Mr. H.]

U.S. District Judge John Preston Bailey said litter and manure washed by rain into Chesapeake Bay tributaries at Lois Alt's Hardy County farm is agricultural runoff, not a fixed pollution source such as a factory. That means it's exempt from the requirement that it be permitted and regulated under the federal Clean Water Act, he said.

How much longer are we going to cow-tow to Agriculture while they destroy our air, ground, and water?

W.Va. chicken farmer wins EPA lawsuit over runoff - Yahoo Finance

 

[Sallow]

Any that's ever seen an Algae bloom agrees with ya H..

 

[Mr. H.]

And a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico the size of Connecticut.

Gulf of Mexico "dead zone" puts seafood industry at risk - CBS News

The Ogallala aquifer drained and poisoned by agriculture...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/01/opinion/polluting-the-ogallala-aquifer.html?_r=0

Why isn't agriculture subject to the Spill Prevention, Control, and Countermeasure (SPCC) Rule?

SPCC Rule | Emergency Management | US EPA

 

[Abraham3]

I guess our legislators have grown overly fond of that food they put in their stomachs three times a day. They need to learn to do without, like... like...

I agree with you in theory. But farmers already operate on a hair-thin margin. If we want to enforce these sorts of restrictions on them, we need to be prepared to pay for it at the grocery store. Something else we could pick up from the Europeans.

 

[daveman]

And a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico the size of Connecticut.

Gulf of Mexico "dead zone" puts seafood industry at risk - CBS News

You can thank environmentalists and the methanol mandate they pushed for this.

 

[Mr. H.]

I guess our legislators have grown overly fond of that food they put in their stomachs three times a day. They need to learn to do without, like... like...

I agree with you in theory. But farmers already operate on a hair-thin margin. If we want to enforce these sorts of restrictions on them, we need to be prepared to pay for it at the grocery store. Something else we could pick up from the Europeans.

We already take it up the ass at the grocery store.

30% of ag products are exported. Maybe we should keep it at home and drive prices down.

Hair-thin margins?

 

[flacaltenn]

I guess our legislators have grown overly fond of that food they put in their stomachs three times a day. They need to learn to do without, like... like...

I agree with you in theory. But farmers already operate on a hair-thin margin. If we want to enforce these sorts of restrictions on them, we need to be prepared to pay for it at the grocery store. Something else we could pick up from the Europeans.

We already take it up the ass at the grocery store.

30% of ag products are exported. Maybe we should keep it at home and drive prices down.

Hair-thin margins?

No hairthin margins in the food industry in general..
But your mid class farmer? Yeah they are scraping by---- in the margin dept.

Push on them and there wont be small or mid farming anymore.. Itll be 4 giant megacorps.

Better idea than general regulation ---- prioritize by scale and pollution impact......

 

[Mr. H.]

I guess our legislators have grown overly fond of that food they put in their stomachs three times a day. They need to learn to do without, like... like...

I agree with you in theory. But farmers already operate on a hair-thin margin. If we want to enforce these sorts of restrictions on them, we need to be prepared to pay for it at the grocery store. Something else we could pick up from the Europeans.

We already take it up the ass at the grocery store.

30% of ag products are exported. Maybe we should keep it at home and drive prices down.

Hair-thin margins?

No hairthin margins in the food industry in general..
But your mid class farmer? Yeah they are scraping by---- in the margin dept.

Push on them and there wont be small or mid farming anymore.. Itll be 4 giant megacorps.

Better idea than general regulation ---- prioritize by scale and pollution impact......

So if the chicken farmer took a truck load of shit and dumped it in the river, is that different from his inability to contain the waste on site? I don't think so.

And I honestly don't care if we did have 4 megacorps providing the same amount of food in this country.

 

[flacaltenn]

We already take it up the ass at the grocery store.

30% of ag products are exported. Maybe we should keep it at home and drive prices down.

Hair-thin margins?

No hairthin margins in the food industry in general..
But your mid class farmer? Yeah they are scraping by---- in the margin dept.

Push on them and there wont be small or mid farming anymore.. Itll be 4 giant megacorps.

Better idea than general regulation ---- prioritize by scale and pollution impact......

So if the chicken farmer took a truck load of shit and dumped it in the river, is that different from his inability to contain the waste on site? I don't think so.

And I honestly don't care if we did have 4 megacorps providing the same amount of food in this country.

How MUCH chicken shit are we talking about? And why would he dump it in the river when he can SELL it for profit? I'm more concerned about the chicken-packer downstream putting his MEGASTREAM of chicken awful into the water.

Look --- I generally agree that ag biz gets a pass. But I NEVER want to see giant mega-corps control that much land, jobs and market share. It would put us back in the sharecropper era. And it's not healthy for Foster Farms to have a chicken monopoly or for Archer Daniels to own the REST of the grain stocks.

EGREGIOUS polluters should be prosecuted. And this should be done with common sense and priorities. NOT by making it impossible for small and mid scale farms to compete.

 

[Mr. H.]

No hairthin margins in the food industry in general..
But your mid class farmer? Yeah they are scraping by---- in the margin dept.

Push on them and there wont be small or mid farming anymore.. Itll be 4 giant megacorps.

Better idea than general regulation ---- prioritize by scale and pollution impact......

So if the chicken farmer took a truck load of shit and dumped it in the river, is that different from his inability to contain the waste on site? I don't think so.

And I honestly don't care if we did have 4 megacorps providing the same amount of food in this country.

How MUCH chicken shit are we talking about? And why would he dump it in the river when he can SELL it for profit? I'm more concerned about the chicken-packer downstream putting his MEGASTREAM of chicken awful into the water.

Look --- I generally agree that ag biz gets a pass. But I NEVER want to see giant mega-corps control that much land, jobs and market share. It would put us back in the sharecropper era. And it's not healthy for Foster Farms to have a chicken monopoly or for Archer Daniels to own the REST of the grain stocks.

EGREGIOUS polluters should be prosecuted. And this should be done with common sense and priorities. NOT by making it impossible for small and mid scale farms to compete.

ADM is gaming the ethanol mandate. But they will soon get a wake up call due to the blend wall. EPA intends to grudgingly scale back blending volumes because of...

wait for it... reality.

We task our hydrocarbon industries with billions of dollars in private-capital expenditures for the sole purpose of complying with environmental regulation.

We PAY agriculture to destroy environments. For what? To keep "the little guy" afloat?

Fuck the little guy. Because if we don't fuck him, we fuck the environment.

No- the only way to stop the rampant ag pollution is to force small farms out of the equation and tax the mother fucking shit out of mega-ag.

Each and every farmer- no matter how large or small - IS an EGREGIOUS polluter.

There is no common sense nor are there priorities within the USDA.

The rule of the day is to get that goddamn incremental bushel of product to market ASAP at the best available price. At all cost.

 

[Mr. H.]

Fuck farmers, for they have fucked us- and the environment- UP the ass for over 100 years.

Boo hoo... the small family farm. Let them pollute... let them rape the land, water, and air.

Let them export 30% of their crop for profit.

Let them plant 39 million acres of ethanol-bound corn for a profit.

The lands of my home- Illinois - were once verdant pastures of prairie grass, vast forests of timbering oak, swamp as far as the eye could see.

Then... came the farmer. And God Made the Farmer. I know so, because Paul Harvey told me.

G'night John-boy, g'night Jim-Bob....

 

[flacaltenn]

So if the chicken farmer took a truck load of shit and dumped it in the river, is that different from his inability to contain the waste on site? I don't think so.

And I honestly don't care if we did have 4 megacorps providing the same amount of food in this country.

How MUCH chicken shit are we talking about? And why would he dump it in the river when he can SELL it for profit? I'm more concerned about the chicken-packer downstream putting his MEGASTREAM of chicken awful into the water.

Look --- I generally agree that ag biz gets a pass. But I NEVER want to see giant mega-corps control that much land, jobs and market share. It would put us back in the sharecropper era. And it's not healthy for Foster Farms to have a chicken monopoly or for Archer Daniels to own the REST of the grain stocks.

EGREGIOUS polluters should be prosecuted. And this should be done with common sense and priorities. NOT by making it impossible for small and mid scale farms to compete.

ADM is gaming the ethanol mandate. But they will soon get a wake up call due to the blend wall. EPA intends to grudgingly scale back blending volumes because of...

wait for it... reality.

We task our hydrocarbon industries with billions of dollars in private-capital expenditures for the sole purpose of complying with environmental regulation.

We PAY agriculture to destroy environments. For what? To keep "the little guy" afloat?

Fuck the little guy. Because if we don't fuck him, we fuck the environment.

No- the only way to stop the rampant ag pollution is to force small farms out of the equation and tax the mother fucking shit out of mega-ag.

Each and every farmer- no matter how large or small - IS an EGREGIOUS polluter.

There is no common sense nor are there priorities within the USDA.

The rule of the day is to get that goddamn incremental bushel of product to market ASAP at the best available price. At all cost.

Does that include Michelle Obama?

There's some agreement here. Especially about the ethanol mandates and lack of common sense in the USDA..

What the statist suck-ups don't understand is that Depts like USDA have an inherent conflict of interest. Leftists think these agencies are there to REGULATE AND PUNISH. But each one of them has a PRIMARY MISSION of PROMOTING the product.

USDA coerces contributions from farmers to their massive advertising and promotion of Ag products here and abroad. Want to see the REAL LACK of common sense in "Govt. Regulators"???

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/us/07fat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Domino’s Pizza was hurting early last year. Domestic sales had fallen, and a survey of big pizza chain customers left the company tied for the worst tasting pies.

Then help arrived from an organization called Dairy Management. It teamed up with Domino’s to develop a new line of pizzas with 40 percent more cheese, and proceeded to devise and pay for a $12 million marketing campaign.


And Dairy Management, which has made cheese its cause, is not a private business consultant. It is a marketing creation of the United States Department of Agriculture — the same agency at the center of a federal anti-obesity drive that discourages over-consumption of some of the very foods Dairy Management is vigorously promoting.

THERE's the problem in a nutshell -- from the Libertarian perspective.. It's having the wrong expectations for government regulation and inherent conflict of interests in their missions.. AND................... no common sense..

 

[Mr. H.]

Fucking heartless farmers. Little farmers.. the ones who let their runoff kill the Gulf of Mexico.

The ones who's feedlots pollute freshwater aquifers with their cows and pigs shitting and pissing on our God-given ground.

Farmers are all about shit and piss. And pesticides, insecticides, phosphorous, fertilizers, and....

... profit.

At our expense.

 

[Mr. H.]

Word up, American farmer.

Your day is due.

We are calling you bluff.

Belly up, because America is bankrupt and your note is due.

 

[Mr. H.]

The farmer is the whore.

No matter how big or small. The farmer culls the sweet treats.

Then casts America aside in the name of profits.

 

[Abraham3]

I guess our legislators have grown overly fond of that food they put in their stomachs three times a day. They need to learn to do without, like... like...

I agree with you in theory. But farmers already operate on a hair-thin margin. If we want to enforce these sorts of restrictions on them, we need to be prepared to pay for it at the grocery store. Something else we could pick up from the Europeans.

We already take it up the ass at the grocery store.

30% of ag products are exported. Maybe we should keep it at home and drive prices down.

Hair-thin margins?

We have the cheapest food on the planet. We are NOT taking it up the ass.

If there is a demand for a product both at home and abroad and the producer chooses to sell it abroad, I am quite certain the reason is that the folks abroad are willing to pay more than the folks at home. So... what are you suggesting? Export tariffs?

You know what I see when I go to the store? I see imports. Food gets shipped all over the world because people have pretty much forgotten that not all crops are available at all locations year round.

I have to tell you that, reading your posts in this thread, I don't see a reasoned argument being made. I see a flaming troll. If you really want to make a case, how about toning down the rhetoric and throwing out a few facts?

 

[Mr. H.]

I guess our legislators have grown overly fond of that food they put in their stomachs three times a day. They need to learn to do without, like... like...

I agree with you in theory. But farmers already operate on a hair-thin margin. If we want to enforce these sorts of restrictions on them, we need to be prepared to pay for it at the grocery store. Something else we could pick up from the Europeans.

We already take it up the ass at the grocery store.

30% of ag products are exported. Maybe we should keep it at home and drive prices down.

Hair-thin margins?

We have the cheapest food on the planet. We are NOT taking it up the ass.

If there is a demand for a product both at home and abroad and the producer chooses to sell it abroad, I am quite certain the reason is that the folks abroad are willing to pay more than the folks at home. So... what are you suggesting? Export tariffs?

You know what I see when I go to the store? I see imports. Food gets shipped all over the world because people have pretty much forgotten that not all crops are available at all locations year round.

I have to tell you that, reading your posts in this thread, I don't see a reasoned argument being made. I see a flaming troll. If you really want to make a case, how about toning down the rhetoric and throwing out a few facts?

Hey- that's MISTER flaming troll to you, bub.

 

[martybegan]

No hairthin margins in the food industry in general..
But your mid class farmer? Yeah they are scraping by---- in the margin dept.

Push on them and there wont be small or mid farming anymore.. Itll be 4 giant megacorps.

Better idea than general regulation ---- prioritize by scale and pollution impact......

So if the chicken farmer took a truck load of shit and dumped it in the river, is that different from his inability to contain the waste on site? I don't think so.

And I honestly don't care if we did have 4 megacorps providing the same amount of food in this country.

How MUCH chicken shit are we talking about? And why would he dump it in the river when he can SELL it for profit? I'm more concerned about the chicken-packer downstream putting his MEGASTREAM of chicken awful into the water.

Look --- I generally agree that ag biz gets a pass. But I NEVER want to see giant mega-corps control that much land, jobs and market share. It would put us back in the sharecropper era. And it's not healthy for Foster Farms to have a chicken monopoly or for Archer Daniels to own the REST of the grain stocks.

EGREGIOUS polluters should be prosecuted. And this should be done with common sense and priorities. NOT by making it impossible for small and mid scale farms to compete.

The chicken plant actually has to either treat its waste if it discharges directly to a waterway, or pre-treat before it can send it to a municipal plant for further treatment. Plants are "point sources" and thus regulated by discharge permits.

Taking care of runoff is a bigger problem due to two things, the nature of the flow, and the volume of the flow. If one takes 1" of rain over 100 acres is 2.7 million gallons of water. Even if you assume 75% absorption that is 680,000 gallons of water that would need treatment in a short time period. So a farmer would need 1) a method to collect all of that runoff over 100 acres, 2) a treatment method, or 3) a connection to a municipal wastewater treatment plant with a heavy surge capacity. Given the distances, the land requirements (remember whatever acerage you take for treatment reduces yield as well as costs money) and the nature of the flow, (lots of sediment, various consitutients) then the treatment costs become prohibitive.

It is far easier to treat point sources due to thier limited discharge point, as well as thier usually more predictable flow.

 

[martybegan]

Fuck farmers, for they have fucked us- and the environment- UP the ass for over 100 years.

Boo hoo... the small family farm. Let them pollute... let them rape the land, water, and air.

Let them export 30% of their crop for profit.

Let them plant 39 million acres of ethanol-bound corn for a profit.

The lands of my home- Illinois - were once verdant pastures of prairie grass, vast forests of timbering oak, swamp as far as the eye could see.

Then... came the farmer. And God Made the Farmer. I know so, because Paul Harvey told me.

G'night John-boy, g'night Jim-Bob....

Methinks someone needs thier dose of Soylent Green.

No need for farmers with that stuff.

 

[Old Rocks]

And a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico the size of Connecticut.

Gulf of Mexico "dead zone" puts seafood industry at risk - CBS News

The Ogallala aquifer drained and poisoned by agriculture...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/01/opinion/polluting-the-ogallala-aquifer.html?_r=0

Why isn't agriculture subject to the Spill Prevention, Control, and Countermeasure (SPCC) Rule?

SPCC Rule | Emergency Management | US EPA

And there are certain crops that create a toxic air pollution. Portland State University is studying the atmospheric affects of some of the crops used in biofuels right now.

Considering the Air Quality Impacts of Bioenergy Crop Production: A Case Study Involving Arundo donax - Environmental Science & Technology (ACS Publications)

The expanding production of bioenergy crops may impact regional air quality through the production of volatile organic compounds such as isoprene. To investigate the effects of isoprene-emitting crops on air quality, specifically ozone (O3) and secondary organic aerosol (SOA) formation, we performed a series of model runs using the Weather Research and Forecasting model with Chemistry (WRF/Chem) coupled with the Model of Emissions of Gases and Aerosols from Nature (MEGAN) simulating a proposed cropland conversion to the giant cane Arundo donax for biomass production. Cultivation of A. donax in the relatively clean air of northeastern Oregon resulted in an average increase in 8 h O3 levels of 0.52 ppb, while SOA was largely unaffected (<+0.01 &#956;g m–3). Conversions in U.S. regions with reduced air quality (eastern Texas and northern Illinois) resulted in average 8 h O3 increases of 2.46 and 3.97 ppb, respectively, with daily increases up to 15 ppb in the Illinois case, and daytime SOA increases up to 0.57 &#956;g m–3. While cultivation of isoprene-emitting bioenergy crops may be appropriate at some scales and in some regions, other areas may experience increased O3 and SOA, highlighting the need to consider isoprene emissions when evaluating potential regional impacts of bioenergy crop production.