Amend Florida's 'stand your ground' law, says lawyer for Markeis McGlockton's family

[beagle9]

Nor did it allow "nerd parking lot cop" to pull his piece out of rage, and then exact vengence on the guy for the push down.

Wrong cat with a gun if it made him some kind of nerd cop who thought the gun made him, instead of him making the gun in which would mean being in control of himself and his weapon in any situation if possible.

Rage....didn't look like rage on the video....looked like he was responding to a violent, surprise attack, where the attacker stepped forward while the man was down..... you can try to pretend this wasn't a justified shooting all you want....but the elements are all there.

Rage has many looks as you well know or should know right ??? Have you not paid attention to the eye witness accounts of how these mass shooters looked or many other murderors or enraged people looked when they unleashed their vengence or hell on their victims afterwards ??

Actually, if you study mass public shooters, rage is not the emotion they show. From actual victim accounts of the all the public mass shooters the one thing they all had in common? Calm. They showed no emotion as they went about their killing. Read up on the accounts, watch the video from the shootings where they had security cameras, rage isn't what they were feeling and rage isn't what they told to the cops when they were captured.

The Aurora theater shooter stated to his court appointed psychiatrist that he didn't want any emotional connection to his victims. He stated that was why when he entered the theater, he didn't shoot the people in the rows closest to him, but fired over their heads into the farther seats. Also, he told his shrink that one girl was laying on the ground as he was leaving, she looked up and made eye contact with him.....he said she started laughing. He asked the shrink why she did that, and the shrink said it was likely nervous laughter....the killer agreed and said having made that eye conact, he didn't shoot her.

No such thing as an inward rage eh ?? Ok yeah, ok.

And another expert......the lack of rage.....

The Seven Myths of Mass Murder | Psychiatric Times

I have forensically evaluated a number of mass murderers in prison or forensic hospitals, and with few exceptions, there was no evidence of a high state of emotional arousal when the killings occurred. We have confirmed this by studying the interviews of witnesses who have survived mass murders, and they invariably describe the shooter as cool, calm, and deliberate: a lack of emotion that is a corollary of violence that is planned and purposeful.

This expert describing your shooter possibly ?? I mean you said he was calm right ?

 

[2aguy]

Rage....didn't look like rage on the video....looked like he was responding to a violent, surprise attack, where the attacker stepped forward while the man was down..... you can try to pretend this wasn't a justified shooting all you want....but the elements are all there.

Rage has many looks as you well know or should know right ??? Have you not paid attention to the eye witness accounts of how these mass shooters looked or many other murderors or enraged people looked when they unleashed their vengence or hell on their victims afterwards ??

Actually, if you study mass public shooters, rage is not the emotion they show. From actual victim accounts of the all the public mass shooters the one thing they all had in common? Calm. They showed no emotion as they went about their killing. Read up on the accounts, watch the video from the shootings where they had security cameras, rage isn't what they were feeling and rage isn't what they told to the cops when they were captured.

The Aurora theater shooter stated to his court appointed psychiatrist that he didn't want any emotional connection to his victims. He stated that was why when he entered the theater, he didn't shoot the people in the rows closest to him, but fired over their heads into the farther seats. Also, he told his shrink that one girl was laying on the ground as he was leaving, she looked up and made eye contact with him.....he said she started laughing. He asked the shrink why she did that, and the shrink said it was likely nervous laughter....the killer agreed and said having made that eye conact, he didn't shoot her.

No such thing as an inward rage eh ?? Ok yeah, ok.

No.... you said how rage looks...... I am telling you what actual witnesses in mass shootings saw from the attacker....and in truth, they don't feel rage, they are ice cold when they kill.

Slow down feller... You are moving the goal post left then right then back again. We can't get any more dizzy, but that might be your strategy eh ??

Nope, I am not moving any goal posts..... you stated that mass shooters exhibit "rage" when they attack, I am showing you that they do not...your quote...

Have you not paid attention to the eye witness accounts of how these mass shooters looked or many other murderors or enraged people looked when they unleashed their vengence or hell on their victims afterwards ??

I linked to experts and pointed you to information that shows that mass shooters are calm when they kill.

 

[PredFan]

Lawyer Benjamin Crump said Thursday that "it's still ludicrous" that a person can be an aggressor in a confrontation and then claim self-defense.

by Erik Ortiz / Jul.26.2018 / 4:48 PM ET / Updated Jul.26.2018 / 5:57 PM ET

McGlockton attorney speaks out against 'stand your ground'
Jul.26.201802:28

A prominent civil rights attorney on Thursday demanded Florida lawmakers amend the state's "stand your ground" law to prevent the person shown to be the aggressor in a confrontation from claiming immunity.

Lawyer Benjamin Crump joined the family of Markeis McGlockton, the 28-year-old father of three fatally shot by another man in a Clearwater parking lot, and argued there is enough evidence for state prosecutors to bring charges against the shooter.

"It's still ludicrous how you can claim you have fear for your life, yet you approach and start the confrontation with the individuals," Crump said at a news conference outside the Pinellas County Justice Center.

He also called for state legislators to take up stricter gun responsibility laws. Florida has some of the most lax gun laws in the nation, according to the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, a California-based organization started by former congresswoman Gabby Giffords.
​

The problem is not with the stand your ground law, it's the fact that in order for it to work properly they're relying on what is essentially an "honor" system that is being abused by individuals who have failured to complay with the requirements for the lethal use of force they've employed.

Too many of the individuals involved in committing these offenses initated the confrontation I'm sure bolden by the fact that they were carrying. Additionally, several bad rulings set precedence that from all appearances is next to impossible to undo.

As I've indicataed before, they teach you what to do and say in the training classes required for obtaining a concealed carry permit (state "I was in fear for my life") but they also teach you under what set of circumstances you can legally draw your weapon without it being considered brandishing and what level of threat allows you to respond with deadly force. And picking a fight just so that you can pull your weapon and shoot someone is not a valid legal basis but more importantly, that's not self-defense. In many cases It's the cowardly act of any individual who is unable to distinguish between an actual threat and an injury to their ego.

Yeah sorry about your bully son getting killed, but fuck you stay away from my rights.

 

[2aguy]

Rage....didn't look like rage on the video....looked like he was responding to a violent, surprise attack, where the attacker stepped forward while the man was down..... you can try to pretend this wasn't a justified shooting all you want....but the elements are all there.

Rage has many looks as you well know or should know right ??? Have you not paid attention to the eye witness accounts of how these mass shooters looked or many other murderors or enraged people looked when they unleashed their vengence or hell on their victims afterwards ??

Actually, if you study mass public shooters, rage is not the emotion they show. From actual victim accounts of the all the public mass shooters the one thing they all had in common? Calm. They showed no emotion as they went about their killing. Read up on the accounts, watch the video from the shootings where they had security cameras, rage isn't what they were feeling and rage isn't what they told to the cops when they were captured.

The Aurora theater shooter stated to his court appointed psychiatrist that he didn't want any emotional connection to his victims. He stated that was why when he entered the theater, he didn't shoot the people in the rows closest to him, but fired over their heads into the farther seats. Also, he told his shrink that one girl was laying on the ground as he was leaving, she looked up and made eye contact with him.....he said she started laughing. He asked the shrink why she did that, and the shrink said it was likely nervous laughter....the killer agreed and said having made that eye conact, he didn't shoot her.

No such thing as an inward rage eh ?? Ok yeah, ok.

And another expert......the lack of rage.....

The Seven Myths of Mass Murder | Psychiatric Times

I have forensically evaluated a number of mass murderers in prison or forensic hospitals, and with few exceptions, there was no evidence of a high state of emotional arousal when the killings occurred. We have confirmed this by studying the interviews of witnesses who have survived mass murders, and they invariably describe the shooter as cool, calm, and deliberate: a lack of emotion that is a corollary of violence that is planned and purposeful.

This expert describing your shooter possibly ?? I mean you said he was calm right ?

Calm? Now you are mixing pre meditated mass shooters with a victim of a violent, surprise attack, who may have been injured in the initial violent push to the ground...

 

[2aguy]

Rage....didn't look like rage on the video....looked like he was responding to a violent, surprise attack, where the attacker stepped forward while the man was down..... you can try to pretend this wasn't a justified shooting all you want....but the elements are all there.

Rage has many looks as you well know or should know right ??? Have you not paid attention to the eye witness accounts of how these mass shooters looked or many other murderors or enraged people looked when they unleashed their vengence or hell on their victims afterwards ??

Actually, if you study mass public shooters, rage is not the emotion they show. From actual victim accounts of the all the public mass shooters the one thing they all had in common? Calm. They showed no emotion as they went about their killing. Read up on the accounts, watch the video from the shootings where they had security cameras, rage isn't what they were feeling and rage isn't what they told to the cops when they were captured.

The Aurora theater shooter stated to his court appointed psychiatrist that he didn't want any emotional connection to his victims. He stated that was why when he entered the theater, he didn't shoot the people in the rows closest to him, but fired over their heads into the farther seats. Also, he told his shrink that one girl was laying on the ground as he was leaving, she looked up and made eye contact with him.....he said she started laughing. He asked the shrink why she did that, and the shrink said it was likely nervous laughter....the killer agreed and said having made that eye conact, he didn't shoot her.

No such thing as an inward rage eh ?? Ok yeah, ok.

And another expert......the lack of rage.....

The Seven Myths of Mass Murder | Psychiatric Times

I have forensically evaluated a number of mass murderers in prison or forensic hospitals, and with few exceptions, there was no evidence of a high state of emotional arousal when the killings occurred. We have confirmed this by studying the interviews of witnesses who have survived mass murders, and they invariably describe the shooter as cool, calm, and deliberate: a lack of emotion that is a corollary of violence that is planned and purposeful.

This expert describing your shooter possibly ?? I mean you said he was calm right ?

And thanks for that.......

this makes me think about wether or not the man on the ground was actually injured..... did he break an arm, a knee...if he did, then that just increases the odds that the shoot was justified...facing an actual, angry guy, who just violently pushed you? And add to that a possible injury? Your case becomes even weaker.

 

[beagle9]

Rage has many looks as you well know or should know right ??? Have you not paid attention to the eye witness accounts of how these mass shooters looked or many other murderors or enraged people looked when they unleashed their vengence or hell on their victims afterwards ??

Actually, if you study mass public shooters, rage is not the emotion they show. From actual victim accounts of the all the public mass shooters the one thing they all had in common? Calm. They showed no emotion as they went about their killing. Read up on the accounts, watch the video from the shootings where they had security cameras, rage isn't what they were feeling and rage isn't what they told to the cops when they were captured.

The Aurora theater shooter stated to his court appointed psychiatrist that he didn't want any emotional connection to his victims. He stated that was why when he entered the theater, he didn't shoot the people in the rows closest to him, but fired over their heads into the farther seats. Also, he told his shrink that one girl was laying on the ground as he was leaving, she looked up and made eye contact with him.....he said she started laughing. He asked the shrink why she did that, and the shrink said it was likely nervous laughter....the killer agreed and said having made that eye conact, he didn't shoot her.

No such thing as an inward rage eh ?? Ok yeah, ok.

No.... you said how rage looks...... I am telling you what actual witnesses in mass shootings saw from the attacker....and in truth, they don't feel rage, they are ice cold when they kill.

Slow down feller... You are moving the goal post left then right then back again. We can't get any more dizzy, but that might be your strategy eh ??

Nope, I am not moving any goal posts..... you stated that mass shooters exhibit "rage" when they attack, I am showing you that they do not...your quote...

Have you not paid attention to the eye witness accounts of how these mass shooters looked or many other murderors or enraged people looked when they unleashed their vengence or hell on their victims afterwards ??

I linked to experts and pointed you to information that shows that mass shooters are calm when they kill.

And I described the inward rage that is hidden but you skated that analogy or ignored it. There are many faces of rage and you know it.

 

[beagle9]

Rage has many looks as you well know or should know right ??? Have you not paid attention to the eye witness accounts of how these mass shooters looked or many other murderors or enraged people looked when they unleashed their vengence or hell on their victims afterwards ??

Actually, if you study mass public shooters, rage is not the emotion they show. From actual victim accounts of the all the public mass shooters the one thing they all had in common? Calm. They showed no emotion as they went about their killing. Read up on the accounts, watch the video from the shootings where they had security cameras, rage isn't what they were feeling and rage isn't what they told to the cops when they were captured.

The Aurora theater shooter stated to his court appointed psychiatrist that he didn't want any emotional connection to his victims. He stated that was why when he entered the theater, he didn't shoot the people in the rows closest to him, but fired over their heads into the farther seats. Also, he told his shrink that one girl was laying on the ground as he was leaving, she looked up and made eye contact with him.....he said she started laughing. He asked the shrink why she did that, and the shrink said it was likely nervous laughter....the killer agreed and said having made that eye conact, he didn't shoot her.

No such thing as an inward rage eh ?? Ok yeah, ok.

And another expert......the lack of rage.....

The Seven Myths of Mass Murder | Psychiatric Times

I have forensically evaluated a number of mass murderers in prison or forensic hospitals, and with few exceptions, there was no evidence of a high state of emotional arousal when the killings occurred. We have confirmed this by studying the interviews of witnesses who have survived mass murders, and they invariably describe the shooter as cool, calm, and deliberate: a lack of emotion that is a corollary of violence that is planned and purposeful.

This expert describing your shooter possibly ?? I mean you said he was calm right ?

And thanks for that.......

this makes me think about wether or not the man on the ground was actually injured..... did he break an arm, a knee...if he did, then that just increases the odds that the shoot was justified...facing an actual, angry guy, who just violently pushed you? And add to that a possible injury? Your case becomes even weaker.

We'll go find out and get back to us..

Sort of like the little bumper scratch, but everyone is hauled off in ambulances.. lol.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Which, IMO, was a calculation by the prosecutors who knew they were overreaching on charges. Remember, they weren't even going to charge him until public outrage kicked in a month later.

I don't know why they didnt' go for manslaughter particularly since the 911 tapes proves Zimmerman under no lawful authority was tracking Martin's movements and erroneously profiled him.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

When will stand your ground apply to black people?

In the minds of racists It's never been anything other than a law that allows them to shoot black people and get away with it.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

In order to get a CCW permit, the class that a person has to take spells out the law in detail. I expect Crump to know.

I'm sure he does know.

Would you be suprised to know that the law is explained to everyone in class however some individuals disregard it completely? Or are unable to comprehend it.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Yes. Notice the flag in my signature, it is the Florida state flag.

Yeah I would have never guessed the way you defaced it all

So what credentials allow you to be more knowledgeable than me on this subject? You do criminal defense work?

 

[Marion Morrison]

Yes. Notice the flag in my signature, it is the Florida state flag.

Yeah I would have never guessed the way you defaced it all

So what credentials allow you to be more knowledgeable than me on this subject? You do criminal defense work?

I have studied the "Stand your ground" law, as it does apply to me. It does not apply to you.

While the shooter was within his rights, that was wrong what he did.
You just don't shoot a guy who's backing away with his hands up.

 

[2aguy]

Which, IMO, was a calculation by the prosecutors who knew they were overreaching on charges. Remember, they weren't even going to charge him until public outrage kicked in a month later.

I don't know why they didnt' go for manslaughter particularly since the 911 tapes proves Zimmerman under no lawful authority was tracking Martin's movements and erroneously profiled him.

There was no case for manslaughter either..... he was in his own neighborhood and following people isn't against the law...considering he lost martin and was heading back to his car when martin attacked him there was no case for manslaughter either.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

can't someone with a pistol go around starting shit like this?
key point as made before, and you do also, most people would not confront people over petty crap
so, this guy is different...

He's no different than Zimmerman. Zimmerman thought because he was neighbor watch captain that he could play wanna be cop and actively patrol the whole place while armed which is a violation of the neighborhood watch regulations.

This guy was patrolling a parking space, in a parking lot on property that he doesn't own again, while armed.

I've had conversations with armed individuals who were more than happy to explain their philosophies and points of view of what their licenses allowed them to do to other people and some were quite frankly bordering on the insane.

Yes, having a weapon makes some people do things that they would not do were they not armed however the state of Florida used to have posted right on their website the following statement (paraphrased), I've tried to locate but have been unable to do so. They expect their CCW holders to read and understand the laws on use of force, escalation of force, self-defense, stand your ground, etc. in addition to any CCW specific laws:
"Having a license to carry a concealed weapon is not a license to use it"

 

[2aguy]

Yes. Notice the flag in my signature, it is the Florida state flag.

Yeah I would have never guessed the way you defaced it all

So what credentials allow you to be more knowledgeable than me on this subject? You do criminal defense work?

I have studied the "Stand your ground" law, as it does apply to me. It does not apply to you.

While the shooter was within his rights, that was wrong what he did.
You just don't shoot a guy who's backing away with his hands up.

You assume the victim could tell the attacker was backing up.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Lawyer Benjamin Crump said Thursday that "it's still ludicrous" that a person can be an aggressor in a confrontation and then claim self-defense.

by Erik Ortiz / Jul.26.2018 / 4:48 PM ET / Updated Jul.26.2018 / 5:57 PM ET

McGlockton attorney speaks out against 'stand your ground'
Jul.26.201802:28

A prominent civil rights attorney on Thursday demanded Florida lawmakers amend the state's "stand your ground" law to prevent the person shown to be the aggressor in a confrontation from claiming immunity.

Lawyer Benjamin Crump joined the family of Markeis McGlockton, the 28-year-old father of three fatally shot by another man in a Clearwater parking lot, and argued there is enough evidence for state prosecutors to bring charges against the shooter.

"It's still ludicrous how you can claim you have fear for your life, yet you approach and start the confrontation with the individuals," Crump said at a news conference outside the Pinellas County Justice Center.

He also called for state legislators to take up stricter gun responsibility laws. Florida has some of the most lax gun laws in the nation, according to the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, a California-based organization started by former congresswoman Gabby Giffords.
​

The problem is not with the stand your ground law, it's the fact that in order for it to work properly they're relying on what is essentially an "honor" system that is being abused by individuals who have failured to complay with the requirements for the lethal use of force they've employed.

Too many of the individuals involved in committing these offenses initated the confrontation I'm sure bolden by the fact that they were carrying. Additionally, several bad rulings set precedence that from all appearances is next to impossible to undo.

As I've indicataed before, they teach you what to do and say in the training classes required for obtaining a concealed carry permit (state "I was in fear for my life") but they also teach you under what set of circumstances you can legally draw your weapon without it being considered brandishing and what level of threat allows you to respond with deadly force. And picking a fight just so that you can pull your weapon and shoot someone is not a valid legal basis but more importantly, that's not self-defense. In many cases It's the cowardly act of any individual who is unable to distinguish between an actual threat and an injury to their ego.

Yeah sorry about your bully son getting killed, but fuck you stay away from my rights.

Not gonna happen AND you're stupid.

 

[hunarcy]

Crump was never the sharpest knife in the drawer. I have no idea how he passed the bar.

Under what circumstances an aggressor can claim self defense is first year criminal law stuff.

Stand your ground means might makes right

Once a fight starts, you can use your gun to resolve it

No troll, it means you don't have to run when a criminal attacks you. That is all it means.

And what if you are the one who initiated the confrontation?

You can start a fight, then pull your gun and fire, claiming you feared for your life and stood your ground

The shooter didn't start a fight. Yes, he was yelling at the driver, but there was no physicality or violence until the man approached him and laid his hands upon the shooter. So, the guy who got killed actually started a fight.

 

[MacTheKnife]

Crump was never the sharpest knife in the drawer. I have no idea how he passed the bar.

Under what circumstances an aggressor can claim self defense is first year criminal law stuff.

Stand your ground means might makes right

Once a fight starts, you can use your gun to resolve it

No troll, it means you don't have to run when a criminal attacks you. That is all it means.

And what if you are the one who initiated the confrontation?

You can start a fight, then pull your gun and fire, claiming you feared for your life and stood your ground

The shooter didn't start a fight. Yes, he was yelling at the driver, but there was no physicality or violence until the man approached him and laid his hands upon the shooter. So, the guy who got killed actually started a fight.

There was no fight though the fake news claims it was a fight over a parking space. There was a argument and there was an assault.

 

[MacTheKnife]

Oh, a mind reader now, huh?

The white guy claimed he was in fear of his life and why would he not be? He was a lone white guy in a black neighborhood known for its crime and violence, had just been violently attacked and had no idea what his black attacker might do next? The police conducted an intensive investigation and concluded the white man was in reasonable fear of his life and justified in using deadly force. End of story.

Funny, according to the store owner, uhh he frequented the store quite often, so either he wasn't scared of being in that neighborhood or somebody's lying. On top of that he was armed, and alledgedly was playing parking lot cop in according to the store owners account and/or knowledge of the guy.

And none of that allows the attacker to physically assault him....

Try containing yourself if some stranger is going off on your girlfriend or wife while your kids are in the car. Yeah you might get shot over it, but that didn't make the guy any less wrong for starting the situation in which he wasn't ever suited for (needed a gun), and ultimately made him pull that weapon, and then fire that weapon out of fear, rage or whatever the reason was for doing so.

Now an innocent man who just came to the store with his lady and kids to purchase some things (lay dead) because of this un-nessesarily created situation.

It doesn't matter what the guy said to the woman about the handicapped spot..... the only part that matters to the attack is the one who first began the violence, and that was the black guy and the push.

That wasn't an innocent man, he attacked a complete stranger with over the top violence. Again, has anyone seen the background on the attacker....his violence was very natural and I suspect he may have had problems with the actual police.

He had been arrested for assault before this incident.

 

[MacTheKnife]

I saw a video once of a black guy who broke into a womans home...she pulled a gun on the guy and what did he do even though he was 20 to 30 ft. away? --he charged her and she started shooting unfortunately for her she missed him. He took her gun and beat her to death with it.

Aside from the fact that you felt the need to identify the intruder as black, this case isn't even close to one of a home invasion in which the residence is occupied. If you find an intruder in your home there is no need to hesititate or have conversation. If he moves in any direction other than away where you'd essentially be shooting him in the back as he's fleeing, you'd be justified as the fact that he's breached your locked doors & windows establishes his threat to you.

I was trained that you don't wait until you find yourself in a situation to try to figure out what you should do, you practice and run scenarios and determine ahead of time what to do.

The point being that just because you have a pistol in your hand does not mean the threat will go away...that in fact the situation may get much worse.

All these Saturday morning quarter backs with hindsight think they know what the shooter should have done. Put any of these snowflakes in the same or a similar situation and they would most likely shit their pants and scream for their mamas.

Non of your hypotheticals are of any value, but what everyone does know if they believe their own eyes, is that the shot when taken was wrong to be taken at that point.

Without a proper investigation of the matter, and the witnesses gathered up to testify, then we will never know the outcome of the case as it would have been reviewed in a court setting by the professionals on both sides.

There was a proper investigation, all the witnesses were interviewed and interrogated, the outcome has been decided by law enforcement professionals and there will be no arrest, as in no charges will be filed. Case Closed