Anarchists and libertarians - Please click here

[Harpy Eagle]

Why do people always do this? Terms like this evolve, and the guy is telling you what he means when he uses it, so there’s no confusion anyway. In anarchist circles, “statist” means anyone who supports government. I know it originally had a more radical connotation, but anarchists rightly perceive any support of violent coercion as radical, and thus use the term more broadly now than in the past.

In your anarchist world if someone wanted to rape your wife, how would you stop them? Would you use violent coercion to stop them?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

So if your house is burning or you're being assaulted, you should give a credit card number when calling the fire department or police?

You'd probably have a subscription to a fire service, whether from contract services, community covenants, or through your freely purchased insurance policy.

Call to 911: My house is on fire ! My son is trapped on the third floor!
What agency do you contract with?
Shit! I don't know! Oh Fire services Inc.
I'll try them. Getting their answering service. Oh OK got them
Fire Service inc. That credit card is expired . Do you have an update
May son is trapped !!
I understand but we must arrange payment first
OK, oK! Here is my new number
Sorry but you are only subscribed to the silver plan that provides protection and rescue up to the second floor. Would you like to upgrade now?
My son is dead!

YOU PEOPEL ARE MORONS AND MAKE ME SICK!

 

[Oddball]

Call to 911: My house is on fire ! My son is trapped on the third floor!
What agency do you contract with?
Shit! I don't know! Oh Fire services Inc.
I'll try them. Getting their answering service. Oh OK got them
Fire Service inc. That credit card is expired . Do you have an update
May son is trapped !!
I understand but we must arrange payment first
OK, oK! Here is my new number
Sorry but you are only subscribed to the silver plan that provides protection and rescue up to the second floor. Would you like to upgrade now?
My son is dead!

YOU PEOPEL ARE MORONS AND MAKE ME SICK!

Fictitious scenario is fictitious....So many holes and preposterous presumptions in that mess to even try to take it seriously.

Methinks you don't even want to bother to listen and learn, from a place that's disconnected from knee-jerk emotional responses.

 

[Oddball]

In your anarchist world if someone wanted to rape your wife, how would you stop them? Would you use violent coercion to stop them?

Reciprocal force isn't aggression....Acts of physical violence violate the non-aggression principle (NAP), and the rapist would possibly end up justifiably physically damaged, if not killed.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

In your anarchist world if someone wanted to rape your wife, how would you stop them? Would you use violent coercion to stop them?

Reciprocal force isn't aggression....Acts of physical violence violate the non-aggression principle (NAP), and the rapist would possibly end up justifiably physically damaged, if not killed.

I did not mention agression, I said violent coercion.

There is no such thing as a non-aggression principle. That is about as real as santa clause.

 

[Flash]

I understand your points and am in sympathy with your basic concept.

I can't believe I defending government. I hate government. I wish the Federal government was 1/20th the size that it is now. I wish human nature was such that we didn't need a military and police and courts and things like that. I wish the government would get out of my life. Government robs us of liberty and is a mechanisms for state sponsored thievery

Good.

Maybe if there were only a few of us we could live like you suggest. However, in a population of over 300 million in the US and seven billion in the world then we do need some collective services.

So, you don't believe that you can have such collective services, free of aggression and coercion?

I wish we could. Like I said, if there were fewer of us maybe we could. The problem with having billions of humans on earth is that there are billions of assholes.

For instance, you and I could contribute to private fund for a national defense to prevent the Chinese or Russians or whoever from killing us but hundreds of millions more would not so we wouldn't have an effective national defense.

I wouldn't mind privately funding many things but not everything. How do you privately fund courts and a State Department and an effective police and intelligence gathering efforts?

Remember, I am not defending big government. Only necessary minimal government.

Anarchy sounds good when you are young and vibrant and can pretty well take care of yourself. However, as you get older you understand that just like the pipe dream of socialism that young idealistic kids have it just ain't gonna work.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

So if your house is burning or you're being assaulted, you should give a credit card number when calling the fire department or police?

You'd probably have a subscription to a fire service, whether from contract services, community covenants, or through your freely purchased insurance policy.

So, those that could not afford the subscription service would just lose their houses to the fire?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

So if your house is burning or you're being assaulted, you should give a credit card number when calling the fire department or police?

You'd probably have a subscription to a fire service, whether from contract services, community covenants, or through your freely purchased insurance policy.

Call to 911: My house is on fire ! My son is trapped on the third floor!
What agency do you contract with?
Shit! I don't know! Oh Fire services Inc.
I'll try them. Getting their answering service. Oh OK got them
Fire Service inc. That credit card is expired . Do you have an update
May son is trapped !!
I understand but we must arrange payment first
OK, oK! Here is my new number
Sorry but you are only subscribed to the silver plan that provides protection and rescue up to the second floor. Would you like to upgrade now?
My son is dead!

YOU PEOPEL ARE MORONS AND MAKE ME SICK!

They are no morons, they are playing make believe. A society of anarchists is a oxymoron. You will notice how they had to water down the meaning of the word anarchy to just refer to governments and not all authority as was its original meaning. The funny thing is they are not actually changing anything, they are just transferring who has authority and calling it something different.

Sort of like..."no dear, I am not going to Kentucky Fried Chicken, I am going to KFC"

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I understand your points and am in sympathy with your basic concept.

I can't believe I defending government. I hate government. I wish the Federal government was 1/20th the size that it is now. I wish human nature was such that we didn't need a military and police and courts and things like that. I wish the government would get out of my life. Government robs us of liberty and is a mechanisms for state sponsored thievery

Good.

Maybe if there were only a few of us we could live like you suggest. However, in a population of over 300 million in the US and seven billion in the world then we do need some collective services.

So, you don't believe that you can have such collective services, free of aggression and coercion?

I wish we could. Like I said, if there were fewer of us maybe we could. The problem with having billions of humans on earth is that there are billions of assholes.

For instance, you and I could contribute to private fund for a national defense to prevent the Chinese or Russians or whoever from killing us but hundreds of millions more would not so we wouldn't have an effective national defense.

I wouldn't mind privately funding many things but not everything. How do you privately fund courts and a State Department and an effective police and intelligence gathering efforts?

Remember, I am not defending big government. Only necessary minimal government.

Anarchy sounds good when you are young and vibrant and can pretty well take care of yourself. However, as you get older you understand that just like the pipe dream of socialism that young idealistic kids have it just ain't gonna work.

Anarchy is social evolution at its finest, if you have the power or resources to defend yourself you will survive, those without the resources will be killed off by those with it. The only rule that fits anarchy is "might makes right".

 

[Oddball]

I did not mention agression, I said violent coercion.

There is no such thing as a non-aggression principle. That is about as real as santa clause.

Well, that might be the stupidest post you've made in this thread...And brother, there's a shit ton of stupid to choose from.

 

[Oddball]

So, those that could not afford the subscription service would just lose their houses to the fire?

They can afford a whole house (including the property taxes under the current model), but not a fee-for-service way to protect it?...I'd ask if you could really be that dumb, if you hadn't already demonstrated so for the last couple days.

 

[Oddball]

I wish we could. Like I said, if there were fewer of us maybe we could. The problem with having billions of humans on earth is that there are billions of assholes.

I can't see where the principles would change just because of the number of people involved...That's a lot like the progressive argument of "yeah but the Constitution was written way-back-when, and times are sooo modern now"...And that there are billions of assholes in the world plays into the argument that it's best to not have the kind of centralized power that The State wields, lest they get their grimy mitts on it.

For instance, you and I could contribute to private fund for a national defense to prevent the Chinese or Russians or whoever from killing us but hundreds of millions more would not so we wouldn't have an effective national defense.

There are more than enough guns in the country to arm every man, woman, and child...Trying to mount a land war here would be an historical military blunder...And let's let other people worry about their own nation's defense.

I wouldn't mind privately funding many things but not everything. How do you privately fund courts and a State Department and an effective police and intelligence gathering efforts?

Remember, I am not defending big government. Only necessary minimal government.

Courts could be privately funded through insurance, fee-for-service, and a myriad of other free market models...Of course, this would necessarily precipitate the total end of victimless "crimes" that are currently clogging up the court system, which would free up a lot of revenue and greatly shrink the whole mess.

Anarchy sounds good when you are young and vibrant and can pretty well take care of yourself. However, as you get older you understand that just like the pipe dream of socialism that young idealistic kids have it just ain't gonna work.

Your say-so doesn't make it so.

 

[Oddball]

So if your house is burning or you're being assaulted, you should give a credit card number when calling the fire department or police?

You'd probably have a subscription to a fire service, whether from contract services, community covenants, or through your freely purchased insurance policy.

Call to 911: My house is on fire ! My son is trapped on the third floor!
What agency do you contract with?
Shit! I don't know! Oh Fire services Inc.
I'll try them. Getting their answering service. Oh OK got them
Fire Service inc. That credit card is expired . Do you have an update
May son is trapped !!
I understand but we must arrange payment first
OK, oK! Here is my new number
Sorry but you are only subscribed to the silver plan that provides protection and rescue up to the second floor. Would you like to upgrade now?
My son is dead!

YOU PEOPEL ARE MORONS AND MAKE ME SICK!

BTW, the overwhelming majority of fire departments in America are VOLUNTARY.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I did not mention agression, I said violent coercion.

There is no such thing as a non-aggression principle. That is about as real as santa clause.

Well, that might be the stupidest post you've made in this thread...And brother, there's a shit ton to choose from.

The funniest thing about the made up NAP is that it would only be enforceable using violence!

You live in a fantasy world, you seem to have lost all connection to reality.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

 

[Oddball]

The funniest thing about the made up NAP is that it would only be enforceable using violence!

You live in a fantasy world, you seem to have lost all connection to reality.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

If you can't make the distinction between proactive aggressive force and reciprocal defensive action, you're too willingly stupid to deal with any further.

Buzz off, troll.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

So you don't have a problem with extortion, as long as you approve of (or deem "necessary") the subsequent expenditure?

I don't paying for the roads that ride on because if I don't pay they ain't gonna get built. I don't mind paying for police protection and don't mind paying the soldiers that protect my country providing that is what they are really doing.

I am not a greedy welfare queen that wants somebody else to pay for them.

I prefer user fees to general taxation.

I don't mind paying for certain things either, I just believe it's wrong to demand I do so by threat of violence. So, would you be willing to take the position that you're anti-taxation? Saying you don't prefer it is a point of contention because I'm citing it as a moral issue. To me, that's like saying, "I don't prefer that people be mugged" as opposed to saying, "I'm anti-mugging". Sort of a fence position, and I want to be clear about what you think.

Are you suggesting that taxation for the few necessary government functions should be optional?

For the kind of minimal government services I am talking about that would be very close to being impossible. How do we pay for a military on an optional basis? Most people would take the protection but not belly up the payment. The same with courts and police.

I prefer most things be based upon a user fee but there are a few (very few) things that should be collective.

We could have a very Libertarian or even an anarchy society that could work but not with the population that we have.

I am for very small government and a Libertarian and I hate government but I am not an anarchist. Maybe if the US had a population of 5 million it would be feasible but not with 330 million.

Thank you for explaining yourself so thoroughly.

Considering our upbringing, it feels as though by saying “there should be no coercive taxation” that we are making a pro-active decision. But in reality, no coercive taxation is the natural state of things, and in every moment that we support something else, we are pro-actively making that choice.

In other words, if things were in their natural, free state, when would be a good time to say “Hey, you know what we should do to get funding for what we deem important? We should threaten everyone with violence. Then we’ll get all the funding we need, and we don’t have to bother convincing people that what we want is important!”

You see how a paradigm shift reveals the true nature of our actions. Immorality always has short-sighted benefits that circumvent the hard work of doing things the right way. But there are no shortcuts, and we pay, one way or another.

There’s no reason why things have to be organized across 325 million people. If the Federal Government was dissolved, we may be connected by a shared culture and commercial market, but we could generally have our voluntary society organized more locally. In any case, moral people really don’t have the option to rob people, regardless of the problems that creates. I trust that mankind can find new solutions to new challenges, just as it always has.

I understand your points and am in sympathy with your basic concept.

I can't believe I defending government. I hate government. I wish the Federal government was 1/20th the size that it is now. I wish human nature was such that we didn't need a military and police and courts and things like that. I wish the government would get out of my life. Government robs us of liberty and is a mechanisms for state sponsored thievery.

Maybe if there were only a few of us we could live like you suggest. However, in a population of over 300 million in the US and seven billion in the world then we do need some collective services.

I feel your pain. Quite literally, as I read your words. How I wish that people would snap out of their stupor and understand that their immorality is preventing a paradise on this planet. There’s enough for everyone, and we can cooperate and be happier, and shouldn’t even need to exercise force for self-defense because no one would ever feel so desperate that they would desire harm for another.

Such as things are, some are not ready. However, I will not be among them. I will not allow speculative fears to guide my behavior. I will not point to their immorality to justify my own, such that others may point to mine and feel justified themselves.

Everything in you is screaming “this is wrong”. You know it is wrong. You only think that we need it.

We cannot cite human nature because we don’t know human nature. It’s never been free enough in recorded history to show its true quality. Technology has liberated us from many hardships of our environment, and widespread sharing of information has made the height of man’s knowledge available at our fingertips.

Now, just one thing remains - to learn the self-responsibility of living morally without bonds upon our wrists. To be both moral and free, through the knowledge that this is not only within man’s potential, but is our destiny.

But we must leave the nest to fly. We don’t get any guarantees before we head out. We need faith that we can do it on our own, and seeing what man has accomplished, even while in bondage, I am confident that he will soar to meet any challenge once free.

Will you keep him bound and deny him that opportunity? If people like you - who understand so well - will keep him bound, who’s left that we can we turn to, to set him free?

 

[Oddball]

We cannot cite human nature because we don’t know human nature. It’s never been free enough in recorded history to show its true quality. Technology has liberated us from many hardships of our environment, and widespread sharing of information has made the height of man’s knowledge available at our fingertips.

There's an aspect of human nature that I believe explains a lot: The limbic cortex, aka the "lizard brain".

One of its jobs is to be vigilant for mortal danger....But we in the modern world don't need to escape cheetahs or protect ourselves from marauding bands of barbarians, so we make them up...This is how all modern neuroses originate...There's no real threat, so one must be built in so that the function is fulfilled.

I think the people in the seats of power know this and exploit it to their greatest advantage...But if enough people learned to just let go....

 

[Brian Blackwell]

I’m not talking about the rules of the board. I’m talking about MY assertion of what your action implies. I’m stating that you imply your consent to the aforementioned terms by posting here. So do you accept this or not? If not, why not?

You are making no sense. How can I imply my consent to rules that do not exist?

Why don’t they exist? I just stated them plainly.

But they are make believe, they are not part of the rules of this board.

I have rules in my house, but government’s rules still apply - you cannot smoke crack here, even if I say it’s OK. The board has their rules, but I have mine too. Just because these rules apply in the same space is a matter of no concern at all.

I have said what, according to me, constitutes your consent to my action. Not the board’s action, MY action. This is what I will do if you post here, and if you post here, that is what you consent to.

Do you accept these terms as valid? If not, why not?

 

[Brian Blackwell]

So if your house is burning or you're being assaulted, you should give a credit card number when calling the fire department or police?

You'd probably have a subscription to a fire service, whether from contract services, community covenants, or through your freely purchased insurance policy.

Call to 911: My house is on fire ! My son is trapped on the third floor!
What agency do you contract with?
Shit! I don't know! Oh Fire services Inc.
I'll try them. Getting their answering service. Oh OK got them
Fire Service inc. That credit card is expired . Do you have an update
May son is trapped !!
I understand but we must arrange payment first
OK, oK! Here is my new number
Sorry but you are only subscribed to the silver plan that provides protection and rescue up to the second floor. Would you like to upgrade now?
My son is dead!

YOU PEOPEL ARE MORONS AND MAKE ME SICK!

Is that how hospitals work?

 

[bripat9643]

So you don't have a problem with extortion, as long as you approve of (or deem "necessary") the subsequent expenditure?

I don't paying for the roads that ride on because if I don't pay they ain't gonna get built. I don't mind paying for police protection and don't mind paying the soldiers that protect my country providing that is what they are really doing.

I am not a greedy welfare queen that wants somebody else to pay for them.

I prefer user fees to general taxation.

I don't mind paying for certain things either, I just believe it's wrong to demand I do so by threat of violence. So, would you be willing to take the position that you're anti-taxation? Saying you don't prefer it is a point of contention because I'm citing it as a moral issue. To me, that's like saying, "I don't prefer that people be mugged" as opposed to saying, "I'm anti-mugging". Sort of a fence position, and I want to be clear about what you think.

Are you suggesting that taxation for the few necessary government functions should be optional?

For the kind of minimal government services I am talking about that would be very close to being impossible. How do we pay for a military on an optional basis? Most people would take the protection but not belly up the payment. The same with courts and police.

I prefer most things be based upon a user fee but there are a few (very few) things that should be collective.

We could have a very Libertarian or even an anarchy society that could work but not with the population that we have.

I am for very small government and a Libertarian and I hate government but I am not an anarchist. Maybe if the US had a population of 5 million it would be feasible but not with 330 million.

Thank you for explaining yourself so thoroughly.

Considering our upbringing, it feels as though by saying “there should be no coercive taxation” that we are making a pro-active decision. But in reality, no coercive taxation is the natural state of things, and in every moment that we support something else, we are pro-actively making that choice.

In other words, if things were in their natural, free state, when would be a good time to say “Hey, you know what we should do to get funding for what we deem important? We should threaten everyone with violence. Then we’ll get all the funding we need, and we don’t have to bother convincing people that what we want is important!”

You see how a paradigm shift reveals the true nature of our actions. Immorality always has short-sighted benefits that circumvent the hard work of doing things the right way. But there are no shortcuts, and we pay, one way or another.

There’s no reason why things have to be organized across 325 million people. If the Federal Government was dissolved, we may be connected by a shared culture and commercial market, but we could generally have our voluntary society organized more locally. In any case, moral people really don’t have the option to rob people, regardless of the problems that creates. I trust that mankind can find new solutions to new challenges, just as it always has.

I understand your points and am in sympathy with your basic concept.

I can't believe I defending government. I hate government. I wish the Federal government was 1/20th the size that it is now. I wish human nature was such that we didn't need a military and police and courts and things like that. I wish the government would get out of my life. Government robs us of liberty and is a mechanisms for state sponsored thievery.

Maybe if there were only a few of us we could live like you suggest. However, in a population of over 300 million in the US and seven billion in the world then we do need some collective services.

Luke. Feel the force. Come over to the dark side . . . . . . .