And when only the police have guns....and decide the cartels pay better..they kill innocent people..

[Brain357]

that is Kleck's number and you know that....his is one of 19 studies....he lists 16 of the studies in his paper.....you can look it up.....

and those aren't even all of the research on guns...you saw the list of other defensive gun use studies by even more,researchers.......did you wake up grouchy?

Yes they all vary greatly. They can't all be right. So you say 2.5 now? And the ones that say 800k, those researchers were wrong then?And how are you accounting for changes in crime rates?

brain....no...I have said Kleck's study found 2.5 from the very beginning and post it along with all the other studies so people can analyze them themselves.....I average them because that seems fair.......I do think Kleck's methods are the most accurate...and you can actually see exactly what he did in his research by reading his paper....of course you know that.......having had it posted time after time.......

What all the research shows is that Americans use guns to stop or prevent violent attack and save lives a lot........that they do so with calm and restraint....as your number of violent monsters killed by victims show...238...right? and that depriving people of the most effective means of stopping violent attack would create even more victims......

Then you should use the 2.5 most debunked number. Otherwise your own studies are contradicting each other. And how do you account for the change in crime rates?

The 238 just means most are minor crimes defensed. There would be more if people were defending many violent attacks.

The 2.5 number is actually the gold standard of research...untouched by serious attempts to show it was wrong...the anti gunners...like you....say...hey...it was debunked....but have never actually shown how you can say that.......


I don't have to account for the change in crime rates....I'lll wait for the research to see what it says......I don't make things up...

And again......as low as the crime rate is now...and it has been coming down since the 90s...as more and more people own guns...not saying it is the complete cause...but owning guns does not increase gun crime......which was one of the biggest tenets of the anti gun religion and time has shown that they were wrong.....

As low as the crime rates get...there will always be criminals, and people who need guns to stop them......

Right 2.5 million defenses and only about 238 criminals shot and killed in defense each year. Does it really need more debunking than that?

Then the numbers have more crimes defensed than are committed, that's quite a problem.

Only about 50 reported defenses each year.

There are pages and pages of debunking.

Oh and if the number is 2.5 million then there have been 75 million defenses the last 30 years. That's more than one for every gun owners. Yet I don't know anyone who has had one even though I know a lot of gun owners. And even on these boards people who claim to have defenses are a small minority. And neither you or I have ever had one. Wow now how could that be if there is more than one for every gun owner in the country? Yes the 2.5 is a cartoonish number.

 

[Brain357]

Here are the studies for the studio audience.....

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409

Hart...1981...1.797,461

Mauser...1990...1,487,342

Gallup...1993...1,621,377

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000


Notice, the 3 different groupings of stats from the research listed so far.....not one of them approaches the NCVS number of 100,000

So you would say the. Terrance is very wrong?

I wouldn't say anything....I show the numbers of the studies.....I averaged them to get a better picture....since that seemed like the reasonable thing to do....Kleck says he used the methods he used to get a more accurate picture........

And also points out that the large number of studies that show defensive gun use is common...as opposed to the one study that shows it is uncommon....is a good sign that Americans are actually using guns to stop crimes....a lot........and that any attempt to disarm them will not make them safer.......

When they go from 100k to 3.6 million averaging isn't the reasonable thing to do. They aren't all right.

 

[Brain357]

The Harvard School of Public Health’s David Hemenway took on Kleck in Survey Research and Self Defense Gun Use: An Explanation of Extreme Overestimates (Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, 1997), demonstrating that because of the nature of the data, Kleck’s self-reported phone survey finding 2.5 million defensive uses of guns per year was wildly exaggerated. For example, Kleck says guns were used to defend against 845,000 burglaries in 1992, a year in which the National Crime Victimization Survey says there were fewer than 6 million burglaries.

Hemenway put together facts from the well-regarded NCVS—that someone was known to be home in just 22 percent of burglaries (1.3 million), and that fewer than half of U.S. households have firearms—and pointed out that Kleck “asks us to believe that burglary victims in gun-owning households use their guns in self-defense more than 100 percent of the time.”

Hemenway noted that respondents may also have a distorted view of “self-defense”—e.g., mistakenly thinking they are legally defending themselves when they draw a gun during a minor altercation. As the Harvard researcher and his co-authors in another study pointed out (Injury Prevention, 12/00): “Guns are used to threaten and intimidate far more often than they are used in self-defense. Most self-reported self-defense gun uses may well be illegal and against the interests of society.”

The Self-Defense Self-Delusion FAIR

 

[2aguy]

Here are the studies for the studio audience.....

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409

Hart...1981...1.797,461

Mauser...1990...1,487,342

Gallup...1993...1,621,377

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000


Notice, the 3 different groupings of stats from the research listed so far.....not one of them approaches the NCVS number of 100,000

So you would say the. Terrance is very wrong?

I wouldn't say anything....I show the numbers of the studies.....I averaged them to get a better picture....since that seemed like the reasonable thing to do....Kleck says he used the methods he used to get a more accurate picture........

And also points out that the large number of studies that show defensive gun use is common...as opposed to the one study that shows it is uncommon....is a good sign that Americans are actually using guns to stop crimes....a lot........and that any attempt to disarm them will not make them safer.......

When they go from 100k to 3.6 million averaging isn't the reasonable thing to do. They aren't all right.

Actually...you know that the 100,000 number is from the National Crime Victimization Survey...which is not an actual gun study...it is a crime victim study that remotely touches on guns....so shouldn't be included in actual gun studies....I put it there to be nice to you and to save the time of having to find it every time you bring it up.......

So not including the NCVS which is not a study of the defensive use of guns....like the other 16......

The number at it's lowest is over 760,000 a year......and probably closer to Kleck's 2.5 million because his methods are more accurate.......so even at the lowest number of 760,000...that is still greater than the 8-9,000 intentional gun murders, mostly by gangs and drug criminals each year.......

so again...you and the other anti gunners are wrong on the issue......

 

[2aguy]

The Harvard School of Public Health’s David Hemenway took on Kleck in Survey Research and Self Defense Gun Use: An Explanation of Extreme Overestimates (Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, 1997), demonstrating that because of the nature of the data, Kleck’s self-reported phone survey finding 2.5 million defensive uses of guns per year was wildly exaggerated. For example, Kleck says guns were used to defend against 845,000 burglaries in 1992, a year in which the National Crime Victimization Survey says there were fewer than 6 million burglaries.

Hemenway put together facts from the well-regarded NCVS—that someone was known to be home in just 22 percent of burglaries (1.3 million), and that fewer than half of U.S. households have firearms—and pointed out that Kleck “asks us to believe that burglary victims in gun-owning households use their guns in self-defense more than 100 percent of the time.”

Hemenway noted that respondents may also have a distorted view of “self-defense”—e.g., mistakenly thinking they are legally defending themselves when they draw a gun during a minor altercation. As the Harvard researcher and his co-authors in another study pointed out (Injury Prevention, 12/00): “Guns are used to threaten and intimidate far more often than they are used in self-defense. Most self-reported self-defense gun uses may well be illegal and against the interests of society.”

The Self-Defense Self-Delusion FAIR

Brain...hemenway is a rabid, anti gun hack.....who lies in his research....

wrong article...that one talks about the hack kellerman.....

Public Health Pot Shots - Reason.com

 

[Brain357]

Here are the studies for the studio audience.....

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409

Hart...1981...1.797,461

Mauser...1990...1,487,342

Gallup...1993...1,621,377

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000


Notice, the 3 different groupings of stats from the research listed so far.....not one of them approaches the NCVS number of 100,000

So you would say the. Terrance is very wrong?

I wouldn't say anything....I show the numbers of the studies.....I averaged them to get a better picture....since that seemed like the reasonable thing to do....Kleck says he used the methods he used to get a more accurate picture........

And also points out that the large number of studies that show defensive gun use is common...as opposed to the one study that shows it is uncommon....is a good sign that Americans are actually using guns to stop crimes....a lot........and that any attempt to disarm them will not make them safer.......

When they go from 100k to 3.6 million averaging isn't the reasonable thing to do. They aren't all right.

Actually...you know that the 100,000 number is from the National Crime Victimization Survey...which is not an actual gun study...it is a crime victim study that remotely touches on guns....so shouldn't be included in actual gun studies....I put it there to be nice to you and to save the time of having to find it every time you bring it up.......

So not including the NCVS which is not a study of the defensive use of guns....like the other 16......

The number at it's lowest is over 760,000 a year......and probably closer to Kleck's 2.5 million because his methods are more accurate.......so even at the lowest number of 760,000...that is still greater than the 8-9,000 intentional gun murders, mostly by gangs and drug criminals each year.......

so again...you and the other anti gunners are wrong on the issue......

The NCVS is the only one that would likely exclude thug on thug defenses.

So 2.5 then? You really believe there have been 75 million defenses in the last 30 years? You can't be serious. Anyone with a tiny amount of common sense can see that isn't right. But then again with only 230 or so criminals shot and killed in defense each year it's also obvious. More gun owners accidently shoot and kill themselves then shoot and kill criminals in defense? Wow you live in fantasy land.

 

[2aguy]

Here is Kleck responding to the hack...hemenway....

Although we systematically rebut each of Hemenwayls H claims we

 

[Brain357]

The Harvard School of Public Health’s David Hemenway took on Kleck in Survey Research and Self Defense Gun Use: An Explanation of Extreme Overestimates (Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, 1997), demonstrating that because of the nature of the data, Kleck’s self-reported phone survey finding 2.5 million defensive uses of guns per year was wildly exaggerated. For example, Kleck says guns were used to defend against 845,000 burglaries in 1992, a year in which the National Crime Victimization Survey says there were fewer than 6 million burglaries.

Hemenway put together facts from the well-regarded NCVS—that someone was known to be home in just 22 percent of burglaries (1.3 million), and that fewer than half of U.S. households have firearms—and pointed out that Kleck “asks us to believe that burglary victims in gun-owning households use their guns in self-defense more than 100 percent of the time.”

Hemenway noted that respondents may also have a distorted view of “self-defense”—e.g., mistakenly thinking they are legally defending themselves when they draw a gun during a minor altercation. As the Harvard researcher and his co-authors in another study pointed out (Injury Prevention, 12/00): “Guns are used to threaten and intimidate far more often than they are used in self-defense. Most self-reported self-defense gun uses may well be illegal and against the interests of society.”

The Self-Defense Self-Delusion FAIR

Brain...hemenway is a rabid, anti gun hack.....who lies in his research....

wrong article...that one talks about the hack kellerman.....

Public Health Pot Shots - Reason.com

You were just quoting an anti gunner? I guess you only use them when it helps your argument?

Being anti gun doesn't change the facts. And he does use facts, not just surveys with not a single confirmed defense. Nor did he survey only 5,000 people and extrapolate that to 2.5 million.

 

[2aguy]

Here are the studies for the studio audience.....

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409

Hart...1981...1.797,461

Mauser...1990...1,487,342

Gallup...1993...1,621,377

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000


Notice, the 3 different groupings of stats from the research listed so far.....not one of them approaches the NCVS number of 100,000

So you would say the. Terrance is very wrong?

I wouldn't say anything....I show the numbers of the studies.....I averaged them to get a better picture....since that seemed like the reasonable thing to do....Kleck says he used the methods he used to get a more accurate picture........

And also points out that the large number of studies that show defensive gun use is common...as opposed to the one study that shows it is uncommon....is a good sign that Americans are actually using guns to stop crimes....a lot........and that any attempt to disarm them will not make them safer.......

When they go from 100k to 3.6 million averaging isn't the reasonable thing to do. They aren't all right.

Actually...you know that the 100,000 number is from the National Crime Victimization Survey...which is not an actual gun study...it is a crime victim study that remotely touches on guns....so shouldn't be included in actual gun studies....I put it there to be nice to you and to save the time of having to find it every time you bring it up.......

So not including the NCVS which is not a study of the defensive use of guns....like the other 16......

The number at it's lowest is over 760,000 a year......and probably closer to Kleck's 2.5 million because his methods are more accurate.......so even at the lowest number of 760,000...that is still greater than the 8-9,000 intentional gun murders, mostly by gangs and drug criminals each year.......

so again...you and the other anti gunners are wrong on the issue......

The NCVS is the only one that would likely exclude thug on thug defenses.

So 2.5 then? You really believe there have been 75 million defenses in the last 30 years? You can't be serious. Anyone with a tiny amount of common sense can see that isn't right. But then again with only 230 or so criminals shot and killed in defense each year it's also obvious. More gun owners accidently shoot and kill themselves then shoot and kill criminals in defense? Wow you live in fantasy land.

Brain....the NCVS is not a defensive gun use study......it has no bearing on the actual research.....you use it because it is the only number you can find that is that low.....

And again...Kleck is the most accurate but he isn't the only researcher.....and his number isn't even the highest.....and yet you go after him alone......the L.A. times study, an anti gun paper...is even higher........

 

[Brain357]

Here is Kleck responding to the hack...hemenway....

Although we systematically rebut each of Hemenwayls H claims we

Is that the one where he states most defenses are at home? Then later he says they are in public contradicting himself. He changing his story depending on what he is trying to defend.

 

[2aguy]

On hemenway....

4. The Hemenway Critique of the National Self-Defense Survey

Hemenway’s paper was not an attempt to produce a balanced, intellectually serious assessment of estimates of defensive gun use. Instead, his critique served the narrow political purpose of “getting the estimate down,” for the sake of assisting the gun control cause. An honest, scientifically based critique would have given balanced consideration to both flaws that would tend to make the estimate too low (e.g., people concealing DGUs because they involved unlawful behavior, and the failure to count any DGUs by adolescents), and to those that contribute to making them too high. Equally important, it would have given greatest weight to relevant empirical evidence, and little or no weight to idle speculation about possible flaws. Hemenway’s approach was precisely the opposite––one-sided and almost entirely speculative. Readers who have any doubts about the degree to which Hemenway’s paper was imbalanced could carry out a simple exercise to assess this claim: count the number of lines Hemenway devoted to flaws tending to make the estimate too high and the number devoted to flaws making the estimate too low.

Hemenway’s one-sided determination to fixate only on possible sources of overestimation was so strong that he failed to recognize even the most conspicuous sources of underestimation. He claimed that Kleck and Gertz obtained an estimate of gun ownership prevalence in their sample that was “outside the range of all other national surveys” (p. 1434), to the low side, yet was oblivious to the implication of this for DGU estimates––since DGUs are obviously more common among gun owners, any underrepresentation of gun owners in the survey sample would contribute to an underestimate of DGUs.2

He likewise noted the underrepresentation of blacks in the NSDS sample (p. 1434), a problem nearly universal in national surveys, yet did not note the implication that underrepresentation of highly victimized subsets of the population would necessarily imply an underrepresentation of persons who had occasion to engage in acts of self-defense, including use of a gun for self-protection. Similarly, Hemenway asserted that the NSDS gives too much weight to persons who are the only adult in their household (p. 1434), yet apparently was not aware that persons who live alone or in smaller households areless likely than others to be victims of crimes like burglaries (U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics 1996, p. 28), and that he was therefore noting a problem likely to contribute to an underestimation of DGUs.

Likewise, Hemenway made no mention of the even more obvious fact that surveys confined to adults (as all of the DGU surveys were) by definition exclude all self-reports of DGU experiences by adolescents. Since rates of gun carrying are as high among adolescents as among adults (Kleck and Gertz 1998, pp. 200-201), and persons age 12-17 claim about 24% of all violent victimizations (U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics 1997, pp. 6, 8), this problem alone could cause surveys to miss as much as a quarter of all DGUs. Nor did Hemenway acknowledge other obvious sources of underestimation that Kleck and Gertz had explicitly noted, such as the omission of persons without telephones, who are poorer and thus more likely to be crime victims than others (Kleck and Gertz 1995, p. 170).

The political function of this sort of advocacy scholarship is clear. While high estimates of DGU frequency do not constitute an obstacle to moderate controls over guns such as laws requiring background checks, they constitute a very serious obstacle to advocacy of gun prohibition. Disarming the mass of noncriminal prospective crime victims would, if high DGU estimates are even approximately correct, result in large numbers of foregone opportunities for defensive uses of guns that could prevent deaths, injuries, and property loss. To acknowledge high DGU frequency would be to concede the most significant cost of gun prohibition. Hemenway’s paper was an attempt to neutralize concerns about such costs and to provide intellectual respectability for positions identified with Handgun Control Incorporated (HCI), the nation’s leading gun control advocacy group.

 

[Brain357]

So you would say the. Terrance is very wrong?

I wouldn't say anything....I show the numbers of the studies.....I averaged them to get a better picture....since that seemed like the reasonable thing to do....Kleck says he used the methods he used to get a more accurate picture........

And also points out that the large number of studies that show defensive gun use is common...as opposed to the one study that shows it is uncommon....is a good sign that Americans are actually using guns to stop crimes....a lot........and that any attempt to disarm them will not make them safer.......

When they go from 100k to 3.6 million averaging isn't the reasonable thing to do. They aren't all right.

Actually...you know that the 100,000 number is from the National Crime Victimization Survey...which is not an actual gun study...it is a crime victim study that remotely touches on guns....so shouldn't be included in actual gun studies....I put it there to be nice to you and to save the time of having to find it every time you bring it up.......

So not including the NCVS which is not a study of the defensive use of guns....like the other 16......

The number at it's lowest is over 760,000 a year......and probably closer to Kleck's 2.5 million because his methods are more accurate.......so even at the lowest number of 760,000...that is still greater than the 8-9,000 intentional gun murders, mostly by gangs and drug criminals each year.......

so again...you and the other anti gunners are wrong on the issue......

The NCVS is the only one that would likely exclude thug on thug defenses.

So 2.5 then? You really believe there have been 75 million defenses in the last 30 years? You can't be serious. Anyone with a tiny amount of common sense can see that isn't right. But then again with only 230 or so criminals shot and killed in defense each year it's also obvious. More gun owners accidently shoot and kill themselves then shoot and kill criminals in defense? Wow you live in fantasy land.

Brain....the NCVS is not a defensive gun use study......it has no bearing on the actual research.....you use it because it is the only number you can find that is that low.....

And again...Kleck is the most accurate but he isn't the only researcher.....and his number isn't even the highest.....and yet you go after him alone......the L.A. times study, an anti gun paper...is even higher........

I use it because it's the most possible number. For all the reasons already given 2.5 million is a joke.

 

[2aguy]

I wouldn't say anything....I show the numbers of the studies.....I averaged them to get a better picture....since that seemed like the reasonable thing to do....Kleck says he used the methods he used to get a more accurate picture........

And also points out that the large number of studies that show defensive gun use is common...as opposed to the one study that shows it is uncommon....is a good sign that Americans are actually using guns to stop crimes....a lot........and that any attempt to disarm them will not make them safer.......

When they go from 100k to 3.6 million averaging isn't the reasonable thing to do. They aren't all right.

Actually...you know that the 100,000 number is from the National Crime Victimization Survey...which is not an actual gun study...it is a crime victim study that remotely touches on guns....so shouldn't be included in actual gun studies....I put it there to be nice to you and to save the time of having to find it every time you bring it up.......

So not including the NCVS which is not a study of the defensive use of guns....like the other 16......

The number at it's lowest is over 760,000 a year......and probably closer to Kleck's 2.5 million because his methods are more accurate.......so even at the lowest number of 760,000...that is still greater than the 8-9,000 intentional gun murders, mostly by gangs and drug criminals each year.......

so again...you and the other anti gunners are wrong on the issue......

The NCVS is the only one that would likely exclude thug on thug defenses.

So 2.5 then? You really believe there have been 75 million defenses in the last 30 years? You can't be serious. Anyone with a tiny amount of common sense can see that isn't right. But then again with only 230 or so criminals shot and killed in defense each year it's also obvious. More gun owners accidently shoot and kill themselves then shoot and kill criminals in defense? Wow you live in fantasy land.

Brain....the NCVS is not a defensive gun use study......it has no bearing on the actual research.....you use it because it is the only number you can find that is that low.....

And again...Kleck is the most accurate but he isn't the only researcher.....and his number isn't even the highest.....and yet you go after him alone......the L.A. times study, an anti gun paper...is even higher........

I use it because it's the most possible number. For all the reasons already given 2.5 million is a joke.

Brain you use it because it is the only number that matches what you come up in your head.......the NCVS is not a gun study...

it is the same accuracy as doing a study on attendance at professional sporting events and then asking one question about "Did you by a drink at the stadium" and then claiming that the study is the definitive work on soft drink consumption in the United States..........

The NCVS is the least accurate because it isn't an actual gun study........

Now I have to go visit the imaginary sky person.......

 

[Brain357]

When they go from 100k to 3.6 million averaging isn't the reasonable thing to do. They aren't all right.

Actually...you know that the 100,000 number is from the National Crime Victimization Survey...which is not an actual gun study...it is a crime victim study that remotely touches on guns....so shouldn't be included in actual gun studies....I put it there to be nice to you and to save the time of having to find it every time you bring it up.......

So not including the NCVS which is not a study of the defensive use of guns....like the other 16......

The number at it's lowest is over 760,000 a year......and probably closer to Kleck's 2.5 million because his methods are more accurate.......so even at the lowest number of 760,000...that is still greater than the 8-9,000 intentional gun murders, mostly by gangs and drug criminals each year.......

so again...you and the other anti gunners are wrong on the issue......

The NCVS is the only one that would likely exclude thug on thug defenses.

So 2.5 then? You really believe there have been 75 million defenses in the last 30 years? You can't be serious. Anyone with a tiny amount of common sense can see that isn't right. But then again with only 230 or so criminals shot and killed in defense each year it's also obvious. More gun owners accidently shoot and kill themselves then shoot and kill criminals in defense? Wow you live in fantasy land.

Brain....the NCVS is not a defensive gun use study......it has no bearing on the actual research.....you use it because it is the only number you can find that is that low.....

And again...Kleck is the most accurate but he isn't the only researcher.....and his number isn't even the highest.....and yet you go after him alone......the L.A. times study, an anti gun paper...is even higher........

I use it because it's the most possible number. For all the reasons already given 2.5 million is a joke.

Brain you use it because it is the only number that matches what you come up in your head.......the NCVS is not a gun study...

it is the same accuracy as doing a study on attendance at professional sporting events and then asking one question about "Did you by a drink at the stadium" and then claiming that the study is the definitive work on soft drink consumption in the United States..........

The NCVS is the least accurate because it isn't an actual gun study........

Now I have to go visit the imaginary sky person.......

It would seem being a gun study may cause the errors of your studies.

 

[JoeB131]

That was the actual number from Bill clinton's Department Of Justice study...their actual number was 1.5 million times guns were used to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives...and Bill clinton is no friend to gun ownership.

There was no such study. and frankly, it defies logic.

Let's look at the numbers of ACTUAL Violent crimes.

the reported crime rate is 300 crimes committed per 100,000 people.

Reported violent crime rate in the U.S. 1990-2013 Timeline

So for there to be 1.5 million crimes thwarted by "Good guys with guns', that would mean the attempted crime rate would be 1500 per 100,000 people.

Really? Seriously?

Or to put it another way, since only 200 'justifiable homicides" were committed with guns, that would mean that a gun was only fired 1 out of 7500 incidents.

So untrained gun owners apparently can show more restraint and judgement than the police.

No, really.

 

[JoeB131]

They aren't covered in the research brain and you know that......the studies interviewed actual people involved as victims in attacks and they had to admit to using guns to strangers......and felons do not admit to strangers they used guns...even for self defense because that is another felony......

So that begs the question, why would they talk to Kleck but not the FBI? Did Kleck give them the secret Gun Nut Handshake and they knew he was cool?

Or is it more likely that Kleck's one time study of 5000 was less accruate than the FBI's Annual study which includes 90,000 households and only extrapolated 56,000 DGU's a year?

 

[JoeB131]

The number at it's lowest is over 760,000 a year......and probably closer to Kleck's 2.5 million because his methods are more accurate.......so even at the lowest number of 760,000...that is still greater than the 8-9,000 intentional gun murders, mostly by gangs and drug criminals each year.......

Kleck's methods were not accurate.

Here's the thing. I know of two people who committed suicides with guns. I know of one person who was murdered with a gun. Since those numbers are 19K and 11K, that's about consistant. I would would know two suicides and one murder victim.

Okay. So by that logic, if there were 2.5 million, I should know 83 people who have fended off violent crime with a gun.

I know exactly. Zero.

 

[2aguy]

The number at it's lowest is over 760,000 a year......and probably closer to Kleck's 2.5 million because his methods are more accurate.......so even at the lowest number of 760,000...that is still greater than the 8-9,000 intentional gun murders, mostly by gangs and drug criminals each year.......

Kleck's methods were not accurate.

Here's the thing. I know of two people who committed suicides with guns. I know of one person who was murdered with a gun. Since those numbers are 19K and 11K, that's about consistant. I would would know two suicides and one murder victim.

Okay. So by that logic, if there were 2.5 million, I should know 83 people who have fended off violent crime with a gun.

I know exactly. Zero.

Yeah....I have never see a Yak in person....so they obviously don't exist....moron....

 

[2aguy]

They aren't covered in the research brain and you know that......the studies interviewed actual people involved as victims in attacks and they had to admit to using guns to strangers......and felons do not admit to strangers they used guns...even for self defense because that is another felony......

So that begs the question, why would they talk to Kleck but not the FBI? Did Kleck give them the secret Gun Nut Handshake and they knew he was cool?

Or is it more likely that Kleck's one time study of 5000 was less accruate than the FBI's Annual study which includes 90,000 households and only extrapolated 56,000 DGU's a year?

An anonymous phone survey.......but felons still won't participate because they don't know who they are talking to on the phone ...and if they have their phone number they can get their address and in the questions....they would have to admit they used a gun...which felons are by law not allowed to touch....

And Klecks methods are in his study and have been reproduced and examined all these years and no one can touch them.....other than anti-gun nuts who simply say they don't count.......

 

[2aguy]

That was the actual number from Bill clinton's Department Of Justice study...their actual number was 1.5 million times guns were used to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives...and Bill clinton is no friend to gun ownership.

There was no such study. and frankly, it defies logic.

Let's look at the numbers of ACTUAL Violent crimes.

the reported crime rate is 300 crimes committed per 100,000 people.

Reported violent crime rate in the U.S. 1990-2013 Timeline

So for there to be 1.5 million crimes thwarted by "Good guys with guns', that would mean the attempted crime rate would be 1500 per 100,000 people.

Really? Seriously?

Or to put it another way, since only 200 'justifiable homicides" were committed with guns, that would mean that a gun was only fired 1 out of 7500 incidents.

So untrained gun owners apparently can show more restraint and judgement than the police.

No, really.

Moron...the clinton Dept. of Justice study is not imaginary........are you that warped........it found 1.5 million uses...and clinton is as anti gun as they come........

And normal people faced with criminals don't have to make an arrest or pursue the criminal...once the attacker runs away, they don't have to pursue....moron....