Another Example of How Common Core Confuses People

[wavingrl]

I guess the people who unleashed the nightmare called "Common Core" never heard the expression: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

lots of problems--so many problems. I hope somewhere there are students that are thriving.

sigh--

eta: some further clarification on the subtraction problem--and yes, it still sounds like '15' was chosen arbitrarily---cannot imagine how kids are taught to select such a number.

http://boingboing.net/2014/03/10/a-math-teacher-explains-new.html

Given this explanation--I think I 'get it'--rounding off??? I would 'round off' to 10---but whatever.
<I admit it&#8217;s totally confusing but here&#8217;s what it&#8217;s saying:

If you want to subtract 12 from 32, there&#8217;s a better way to think about it. Forget the algorithm. Instead, count up from 12 to an &#8220;easier&#8221; number like 15. (You&#8217;ve gone up 3.) Then, go up to 20. (You&#8217;ve gone up another 5.) Then jump to 30. (Another 10). Then, finally, to 32. (Another 2.)

I know. That&#8217;s still ridiculous. Well, consider this: Suppose you buy coffee and it costs $4.30 but all you have is a $20 bill. How much change should the barista give you back? (Assume for a second the register is broken.)

You sure as hell aren&#8217;t going to get out a sheet of paper ...>

 

[Zoom-boing]

Theory?

Have you ever been to a store?

Have you ever heard a cashier count change?

Cahiers start from the subtrahend and ADD up until they reach the subtrahend.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT A CASHIER DOES EVERYTIME THEY COUNT CHANGE TO YOU, YA FUCKING IDIOT.


When you want to do 1000-99 in your head, do you actually line columns and borrow 1's ? I just add 1 + 900=901. That's the "theoretical" way of going it I suppose.

Well that's just it. Kids and younger people today don't learn how to 'count back/count forward' and most of them have no idea how to do this. The register gives them the amount to give back to the customer. If the register freezes they just stand there stupified. No kidding. They cannot figure out what the change back to the customer is without pencil/paper or a calculator.

My daughter is a GSA at Target and the vast majority of the cashiers have zero clue how to do this. If a customer gives them $20.02 cash for a $15.02 bill, most of them need a calculator to figure out that the change is $5. Seriously. Completely forget about giving the extra change, like if the bill is $3.76 and the customer gives you $5.01. Uh, they stare at you like zombies. And forget figuring percentages. The cashiers are to ask if the customer wants a red card (Target's debit card). They are to say 'you can save 10% off of your purchase today if you open one' But again, the vast majority if they needed to give what that percent actually is? No freaking clue. They need a calculator (and some can't even figure it out then!). It's sad really. I see this all over, not just at Target. This is coming from someone who is sucky at math! ... but even I can do this basic stuff without assistance. Why? Because I was taught it when I was a kid.

If a customer gives them $20.02 cash for a $15.02 bill,

Try handing someone $5 for a $4.76 purchase - and then handing them the penny AFTER they've already rung it up. It will blow their minds to pieces. Some just give up and hand you back two dimes and 5 pennies (emphasizing their stupidity).

Ha, ha I do this all the time on purpose then try to show them how to 'figure' my change. I did this not too long ago at an A.C. Moore and the cashier was at least 40. I gave her the change part after she rang me up. Her response to me was 'oh, I don't know how to do that I'm usually back in floral'. <blink, blink> I just said, nicely not condescendingly or anything, 'oh, everyone should know how to give change it's really not hard' then proceeded to count back and tell her how much she owed me. Yeah, she just looked at me with total blankness.

Of course - most cashiers these day get paid shit and have no ownership interests - so what do you expect? 60 years ago the cashier was the owner or it was a faithful employee that took pride in his work and who the owner treated with dignity and respect - or maybe it was the son of the owner who would one day own it - now cashiers are disposable commodities going for minimum wage or slightly more if you want one that can figure out 5 pennies and two dimes is a quarter if you add it all up.

Most cashiers get paid minimum wage because that's what the job is worth, ownership has nothing to do with it. I expect them to do their job as if they do have some ownership, that's how you do a good job. They can't count change back because they were never taught it in school because things like 'new math' or 'common core' (which teaches methods that are too complex to kids who have not developed enough to understand it) instead of teaching math basically and simply. Technology is also part of the problem but needn't be. Teach the basics, do not allow calculators for anything until high school.

 

[Zoom-boing]

So 32-12 = 20 because....
12 + 3 = 15
15+5 = 20
20+10 = 30
30+2 = 32.

3+5+10+2 = 20.


I guess I would need a tutor. I have no clue as to why you would 'arbitrarily' ? choose to add 3 to 12 to reach 15. It would never occur to me. Stuck in the Stone Age--I guess.

I can grasp 10's--which according to another article on CC is the premise.

I believe one of the designers of CC said that 'curriculums vary'--the example he addressed was so confusing he wouldn't have included it.

ie---<Not surprisingly, the post was brought to the attention of one of the authors of the Common Core standards for mathematics, Bill McCallum of the University of Arizona. McCallum responded to the Facebook post in a recent blog entry. He states:

"So, this Common Core problem has been making the rounds. In it a student is asked to correct a number line method of subtraction, and the parent is basically saying why not do it the good old fashioned way? Of the two methods, the only one that is required by the Common Core is the parent's way:

4.NBT.4. Fluently add and subtract multi-digit whole numbers using the standard algorithm.

No previous state standards, including Indiana's, had such an explicit requirement for fluency with the standard algorithm. Now that Indiana has opted out of the Common Core, this parent had better hope they do not drop this requirement.

It is true that the standards also require students to understand place value, which I take as the goal of this problem. But there are many other ways to do that."
>
Why is this Common Core math problem so hard? Supporters respond to quiz that went viral | Hechinger Report

It isn't an arbitrary number. Adding 3 to 12 gives you 15, which then makes it easier to 'count back' 5 more to 20, 10 more to 30, plus 2.

I understand what they're trying to do but they need to teach math the most basic and simplest way so kids have a true understanding of how to do it of how it all works. The most basic and simplest way works for most people. Then if they want to show alternative methods that's ok. But also the age of the kids they are teaching comes into play. Some of this cc stuff is abstract and little kids (6-10 or so) just haven't developed enough in their brains to be able to grasp those kinds of concepts.

'Count back 5 more to 20'---sounds like a roundabout way to use place value/10's.

No--I don't understand why they chose 15, etc.

Because counting by 5's and 10's is easier. They added 3 to 12 to get 15, which then makes it easier to count (by 5's) to 20, then to count (by 10's) to 30, plus 2 ... again, which is exactly how you would 'count back' change being given.

How do you check if you're subtraction is correct? Add. 32-12=20. To check, add 20+12 and you get 32. That's basically what they're doing, just in a round-about way. Which is the problem, imo, unless they're also first teaching the simpler add-to-check way I just did.

 

[wavingrl]

It isn't an arbitrary number. Adding 3 to 12 gives you 15, which then makes it easier to 'count back' 5 more to 20, 10 more to 30, plus 2.

I understand what they're trying to do but they need to teach math the most basic and simplest way so kids have a true understanding of how to do it of how it all works. The most basic and simplest way works for most people. Then if they want to show alternative methods that's ok. But also the age of the kids they are teaching comes into play. Some of this cc stuff is abstract and little kids (6-10 or so) just haven't developed enough in their brains to be able to grasp those kinds of concepts.

'Count back 5 more to 20'---sounds like a roundabout way to use place value/10's.

No--I don't understand why they chose 15, etc.

Because counting by 5's and 10's is easier. They added 3 to 12 to get 15, which then makes it easier to count (by 5's) to 20, then to count (by 10's) to 30, plus 2.

That's fine--I am certain that there are reasonable explanations--and things must be 'working' somehow.

When I taught 4th grade--place value was very difficult for some--maybe this provides an alternative. I wouldn't want to try to explain this to kids--based on the little I know of it from the media.

 

[hangover]

Go to first new post Another Example of How Common Core Confuses People

This is Jim Bowie's excuse for his confusion.

 

[Zoom-boing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldyl_uYrojs&feature=player_embedded

CC is wanting the kids to add numbers to the remainder until it adds to the original amount, then add up all the numbers added.

So 32-12 = 20 because....
12 + 3 = 15
15+5 = 20
20+10 = 30
30+2 = 32.

3+5+10+2 = 20.

Add the numbers up till you get a tens digit, then add tens till you get to the tens digit of the original amount, then add ones till you get the total starting amount. Then add it all up.

We need to teach kids just how to do the fucking math and leave the theory to the academics who love playing with numbers. The rest of us just want to know what 32-12 is and don't need all the bullshit.

Theory?

Have you ever been to a store?

Have you ever heard a cashier count change?

Not in the last twenty years, no I haven't.

Cahiers start from the subtrahend and ADD up until they reach the subtrahend.

No, they don't. I had never heard it given that way.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT A CASHIER DOES EVERYTIME THEY COUNT CHANGE TO YOU, YA FUCKING IDIOT.

Maybe where you are from, but not where I am from. They see the change indicated by the register and then count the change out to the same total. Haven't even seen that done in a long time. Now they just put the change, bills an receipt into your hand and say 'have a good day.'

When you want to do 1000-99 in your head, do you actually line columns and borrow 1's ?

Yes, I do.

I just add 1 + 900=901. That's the "theoretical" way of going it I suppose.

Why not subtract 100 from 1001 instead?[/quote]

I added 1 to 99 to get 100, subtracted that from 1000 to get 900, then added the 1 back to get 901. I do this all the time because if I have to do math in my head, that makes it easier for me even though it's an extra step. I can't do the 'column' stuff in my head, I have a hard time visualizing the numbers (and yet when people tell me their names I visualize their name spelled in my head. Weird) so I do the extra step way because that's what works for me.

Which just goes to show that there are more than one ways to do this, none are 'more right' than the other, everyone's brains work differently is all. Which is why I don't have a problem with them teaching different ways but they need to teach them in addition to the basic way, not in place of it.

 

[jon_berzerk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldyl_uYrojs&feature=player_embedded

CC is wanting the kids to add numbers to the remainder until it adds to the original amount, then add up all the numbers added.

So 32-12 = 20 because....
12 + 3 = 15
15+5 = 20
20+10 = 30
30+2 = 32.

3+5+10+2 = 20.

Add the numbers up till you get a tens digit, then add tens till you get to the tens digit of the original amount, then add ones till you get the total starting amount. Then add it all up.

We need to teach kids just how to do the fucking math and leave the theory to the academics who love playing with numbers. The rest of us just want to know what 32-12 is and don't need all the bullshit.

we teach good old math out here

 

[wavingrl]

I think I round off to the nearest 10.

Not certain.

I would have to see the curriculum guide.

It sounds like that is where many problems are occurring---worksheets sent home and parents don't know what has been said at school?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

this mother nails it...

 

[JakeStarkey]

I agree that Common Core is not only confusing...but does not fulfill it's stated objective...which is to instill A "core" of learned cognitive skills that all students can build on to enhance learning.
The way it's being implemented does not take into account a child's developmental ability to acquire specific cognitive skills at different stages of growth....
For example: Unless they are rare geniuses, children typically to not have the brain development necessary for abstract reasoning until @ age 12...So being forced to do algebraic equations and discern inferences and analogies at age 8 is invariably futile.
So.. In order to help kids pass the tests that measure stipulated "common core" acquisition, teachers are forced to instruct rote memorization of the kinds of answers required...which does not at all promote true learning unless the child is at the appropriate of stage of cognitive development.

Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

Yes, this is the problem: the children's age and the teaching of certain critical thinking skills far too early in their lives.

Not that it is a "federal conspiracy" against the American population.

 

[ogibillm]

do any of you really have an issue with the states deciding on a grade by grade set of standards for what a child should learn?

As for the given example, yes, it's easier and quicker just to subtract 12 from 32 and get 20. However, doing it the described way involves a deeper understanding of why the answer is 20, and thinking that way can help them with more advanced math in later years.

 

[wavingrl]

do any of you really have an issue with the states deciding on a grade by grade set of standards for what a child should learn?

As for the given example, yes, it's easier and quicker just to subtract 12 from 32 and get 20. However, doing it the described way involves a deeper understanding of why the answer is 20, and thinking that way can help them with more advanced math in later years.

I haven't become as informed on CC as perhaps I should be. No kids in school, etc.

From what I have seen online--parents are concerned about the extensive testing and reporting of test scores and somehow issues of sex education are tied to Common Core?????

as for the deeper understanding--perhaps this one problem isn't a good example?

It seems like --for lack of a better term--a 'device' is being utilized. I'm not opposed to different strategies that might enable a student to grasp a concept. This one seems unusual and I feel fairly certain I don't have all the fyi needed to even discuss it.

Elsewhere there was a complicated discussion on spelling. Provided with more information I would probably agree with what is proposed--couldn't get much from this discussion.

ie--http://www.readingrockets.org/article/80

from a brief scan there is nothing exceptional being described--certain that these methods have been around for quite some time.

an excerpt--
<To implement word study effectively, teachers and students alike must become word detectives, engaged in an ongoing attempt to make sense of word patterns and their relationships to one another. Spelling "rules" are not dictated by the teacher for students to memorize. Rather, spelling patterns and generalizations are discovered by students.>
This might be more time consuming--I found grammar rules in general helpful. Who knows. 'the kitchen sink approach'---sometimes use one strategy and then use another. I have a feeling it always gets back to this.


Parents seem frustrated with worksheets sent home for homework. Some say their districts have offered some programs for parents--and that seems to help.

Also--it seems CC is more complicated for those in upper elementary grades--who started with a different sort of curriculum. That's about all I've got.

If I had a child in school I would leave no stone unturned until I understood how I could support the school's efforts.

 

[skookerasbil]

common core is ghey........my 2 kids opted out. Shit is so stoopid.......and dangerous as well.