CDZ Are anti gunners serious when they say they will stop at 10 round magazines?

[RetiredGySgt]

Should it be 10 rounds or 15 rounds?
I really don't care

But should you be able to go out and buy 50-100 round magazines?
No way

the 50 and 100 round magazines do not work that is why the military does not use them.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Now, suppose I want to shoot up a concert in Las Vegas

Ten rounds just doesn't cut it when I can get 45 rounds and a bump stock

Die suckers....Die

If it doesn't make a difference, why does the military ALWAYS use high capacity magazines in combat?

30 round magazines have been the standard for years.

only recently have 30 round magazine been called high capacity.

Military assault rifles are also capable of fully automatic and burst firing

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I never said I did.

But you missed the point that magazine size is irrelevant to anyone hell bent on killing people

But only people intent on killing lots of people want a 100 round magazine.

With a 100 round magazine you can look like a badass at the shooting range
But it serves you no practical purpose

It is highly desired by someone who wants to slaughter small children in an elementary school or shoot up a church

actually stupid, 100 round magazines are useless they are to heavy and jam too easy. you should hope some one tries to use them they will spend all their time unjamming the firearm.

If that is the case, you should have no issue with banning them

i oppose banning anything that you think should be banned because you are dishonest about your intentions.

 

[BULLDOG]

Now, suppose I want to shoot up a concert in Las Vegas

Ten rounds just doesn't cut it when I can get 45 rounds and a bump stock

Die suckers....Die

If it doesn't make a difference, why does the military ALWAYS use high capacity magazines in combat?

30 round magazines have been the standard for years.

only recently have 30 round magazine been called high capacity.

Military assault rifles are also capable of fully automatic and burst firing

Other than being being capable of fully automatic and burst firing, and the seer and bolt carrier differences that allow that, what is the difference between an M-16 and an AR-15?

 

[rightwinger]

Should it be 10 rounds or 15 rounds?
I really don't care

But should you be able to go out and buy 50-100 round magazines?
No way

the 50 and 100 round magazines do not work that is why the military does not use them.

Good to hear

Then lets ban them since they are good for nothing anyway

 

[RetiredGySgt]

the difference is one is legal and the other requires a license. already covered. the second amendment specifically covers weapons of use to the military.

 

[rightwinger]

I never said I did.

But you missed the point that magazine size is irrelevant to anyone hell bent on killing people

But only people intent on killing lots of people want a 100 round magazine.

With a 100 round magazine you can look like a badass at the shooting range
But it serves you no practical purpose

It is highly desired by someone who wants to slaughter small children in an elementary school or shoot up a church

actually stupid, 100 round magazines are useless they are to heavy and jam too easy. you should hope some one tries to use them they will spend all their time unjamming the firearm.

If that is the case, you should have no issue with banning them

i oppose banning anything that you think should be banned because you are dishonest about your intentions.

My intentions are clear

I do not want evil sons of bitches who want to shoot up a church or a school to have access to weaponry that gives them military-like firepower. And that goes for body armor also

 

[Skull Pilot]

Now, suppose I want to shoot up a concert in Las Vegas

Ten rounds just doesn't cut it when I can get 45 rounds and a bump stock

Die suckers....Die

If it doesn't make a difference, why does the military ALWAYS use high capacity magazines in combat?

30 round magazines have been the standard for years.

only recently have 30 round magazine been called high capacity.

Military assault rifles are also capable of fully automatic and burst firing

Other than being being capable of fully automatic and burst firing, and the seer and bolt carrier differences that allow that, what is the difference between an M-16 and an AR-15?

That's easy one is legal for civilians to own and one isn't without a class 3 license or even with a class 3 if it was manufactured after 1986

 

[Skull Pilot]

But only people intent on killing lots of people want a 100 round magazine.

With a 100 round magazine you can look like a badass at the shooting range
But it serves you no practical purpose

It is highly desired by someone who wants to slaughter small children in an elementary school or shoot up a church

actually stupid, 100 round magazines are useless they are to heavy and jam too easy. you should hope some one tries to use them they will spend all their time unjamming the firearm.

If that is the case, you should have no issue with banning them

i oppose banning anything that you think should be banned because you are dishonest about your intentions.

My intentions are clear

I do not want evil sons of bitches who want to shoot up a church or a school to have access to weaponry that gives them military-like firepower. And that goes for body armor also

So then no one can right?

I don't want evil sons of bitches to drive drunk maybe we should ban alcohol.

Oh yeah we all know how that worked out

 

[hunarcy]

The left always says they just want common sense gun control....and one of those measures they always want is a limit on 10 bullets for all magazines

Now, keep in mind, this will not limit the deaths in mass shootings, as actual research shows. The killers, like the guy in Texas had plenty of magazines and changed them 14 times while he was murdering those people.

And Criminals won't care about a 10 round limit because they will just get theirs illegally, and they can rape a woman just as easily with a 10 round magazine, murder a rival or rob someone.

The only people a 10 round magazine limit effects is the law abiding gun owner, who does not commit any crime or murder. People who have guns that take 15-19 rounds in their pistols...will now be criminals if they don't do something with their guns.....dittos rifles that will take 30 round magazines.....

I have listed the points made by David Kopel on why law abiding people need more than 10 rounds, in other places and would happily do so again. I have also posted the ruling by the California judge placing a hold on the new California magazine ban where he accurately takes apart all of the arguments made against 10 round magazines.

The question, however, is this.........if the anti gunners get all the 15-30 round magazines....will they leave the 10 round magazines alone?

Keep in mind, the Santa Barbara shooter used 10 round magazines to murder 6 people.......

No, because when the next massacre occurred, they'd say it shows we should ban all magazines but 5 round..

 

[rightwinger]

With a 100 round magazine you can look like a badass at the shooting range
But it serves you no practical purpose

It is highly desired by someone who wants to slaughter small children in an elementary school or shoot up a church

actually stupid, 100 round magazines are useless they are to heavy and jam too easy. you should hope some one tries to use them they will spend all their time unjamming the firearm.

If that is the case, you should have no issue with banning them

i oppose banning anything that you think should be banned because you are dishonest about your intentions.

My intentions are clear

I do not want evil sons of bitches who want to shoot up a church or a school to have access to weaponry that gives them military-like firepower. And that goes for body armor also

So then no one can right?

I don't want evil sons of bitches to drive drunk maybe we should ban alcohol.

Oh yeah we all know how that worked out

Yes, that is the way society works
I can drive drunk without getting in an accident why should I be punished because others kill people?

 

[rightwinger]

The Heller decision was a gift to the anti-gun control crowd

They found that the DC restrictions on handguns were excessive and were not supported by a pressing government interest

But even Heller made it clear that the government had a right to ban certain firearms if they could prove a pressing societal reason for the ban

Given the preference of mass murderers to use assault type weapons with large capacity magazines and the lack of a pressing reason why private citizens need so much firepower...Even Heller would agree with the ban

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Are anti gunners serious when they say they will stop at 10 round magazines?

Only a fool would believe so. If those people are ever given an inch they'll take the mile and then some.

 

[2aguy]

remind me again how Britain did it right but crimes involving the use of firearms skyrocketed after the ban and murder with firearms went up as well.

26 Gun murders (equiv. 130) in England vs. *11,004* in US Annually
26 Gun murders (equiv. 130) in England vs. *11,004* in US Annually
Published on
Tuesday, October 03, 2017

Yes....we get it....even though British criminals now have more guns than they had before the gun ban, and they are using them more and more often...gun crime across England and Wales is up another 27%....and in London, it is up 42%.....their criminals do not murder their victims......we get it...but that isn't the point....the point is that they have more gun crime and murder after they banned guns....they are an island nation...........and now have more violent crime than we do...

 

[2aguy]

Then tell the government clerks to press "send" when they are updating criminal records....

Or actually do REAL background checks, and not rely on a database that is designed to be faulty.

Or better yet. Make the gun industry responsible, just like bars are when they serve drunks. No "checking a database". If the guy looks too drunk to drive, you don't serve him. If he looks too crazy to have a gun, you don't sell him one.

If you sell him one anyway, lawsuit time.

I promise you, the first time a gun manufacturer starts paying out big bucks from one of their "elite customer's" actions, they'll clean up their act.

Yes....gun makers who are at least two points removed from the sale of the gun to the buyer.....punish them.....but let violent gun criminals with long histories of violence out of jail over and over again...

Got it.

 

[2aguy]

The Heller decision was a gift to the anti-gun control crowd

They found that the DC restrictions on handguns were excessive and were not supported by a pressing government interest

But even Heller made it clear that the government had a right to ban certain firearms if they could prove a pressing societal reason for the ban

Given the preference of mass murderers to use assault type weapons with large capacity magazines and the lack of a pressing reason why private citizens need so much firepower...Even Heller would agree with the ban

Yeah....no. Considering there are 13 million AR-15 rifles in private hands...and 2 were used for crimes......one by a guy who was already banned from owning one and who the government screwed up in his background check.....and no, you don't get to ban them.....

And magazine size has nothing to do with how many people die.....you have seen the research...here it is again...

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----

How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?

First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.

Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.

Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.

Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.

Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.


It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.

For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.

In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.

In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.


In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.

After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.

The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).


The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.

This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.

Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.

According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).

It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because

(1) the shooter was reloading, or because

(2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.

Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.

One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.

In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).

Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.

Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)

. If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.

Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

-----

In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.

 

[BULLDOG]

remind me again how Britain did it right but crimes involving the use of firearms skyrocketed after the ban and murder with firearms went up as well.

26 Gun murders (equiv. 130) in England vs. *11,004* in US Annually
26 Gun murders (equiv. 130) in England vs. *11,004* in US Annually
Published on
Tuesday, October 03, 2017

Yes....we get it....even though British criminals now have more guns than they had before the gun ban, and they are using them more and more often...gun crime across England and Wales is up another 27%....and in London, it is up 42%.....their criminals do not murder their victims......we get it...but that isn't the point....the point is that they have more gun crime and murder after they banned guns....they are an island nation...........and now have more violent crime than we do...

That is another lie.

 

[2aguy]

Yeah...they did this......they had a guy who a co worker said was spouting jihadi sentiments...they did. 10 month detailed background check, including an under cover approach, talked to people who knew the guy, talked to him 3 different times using trained FBI agents....and on top of that the guy passed a background check for his security job, and passed a federally mandated background check for ecru gun he owned.....

After all of that....he was cleared.......and he would clear your idea for a background check too...

No, he wouldn't have. That's the point. The problem is, the standard for denying someone a gun is so high that even that level of crazy isn't enough to deny one.

This is the problem when you declare something a 'right'. Taking it away becomes REALLY DIFFICULT. All the stuff you list here should have been a reason to deny him a gun. But it wasn't.

No......the guy in Texas wasn't allowed to buy, own or carry a gun.....he met the standard, and then your god, government, failed. It wasn't really difficult to ban him....it seems to have been difficult for the Air Force clerk to press "send" on his records going to the FBI......

 

[2aguy]

Moron...we told you over and over, they get their guns from straw buyers and they steal them. They stay away from private sellers because they think they could be police.

And if a straw buyer can pass a background check for a gun store, where they get their guns.....they will pass a background check for a private sale......making your universal background check pointless...

OK. We can add stealing them to their list of sources if you want to. Where is the proof that crooks ONLY get guns those two ways? Want to add more sources?

And more.....

How Criminals Get Guns: In Short, All Too Easily

When they cannot find them in the grass, gangs get guns by trickery and by theft, by bribery and by intimidation. They often pay or force men who are legally entitled to buy guns to buy weapons for them at gun stores or shows.


Such a transaction is called a "straw man" purchase, but girlfriends and other women, often desperate to feed their children or a drug habit, are also used to buy weapons over the counter.

"We've found people who do it as a kind of side business," said Stephen P. Sinnott, an assistant United States Attorney in Chicago.

One gun-running ring at the city's western limits paid off its buyers with guns. For every half-dozen guns or so a straw man bought, he was allowed to keep one. In about 16 months, Mr. Singer said, the ring put more than 110 illegal guns on the streets. More than 20 of the guns have been recovered in drive-by shootings and drug deals gone bad.

The gangs and other criminals also get weapons through barter, or "trade-ins." The gangs trade narcotics for the guns of drug-addicted burglars, who will sell a $500 pistol fo

More reason why we need to register guns

Registering guns doesn't do anything.....it doesn't solve crimes it doesn't stop crimes...and mass shooters will register their guns all day long.

It shows where mass shooters and criminals are getting their guns

You will be more careful about who you sell your gun to if you realize the gun can be traced back to you

No.....if they cared who they sold their guns to they wouldn't sell the guns to those people....as the article shows...and you missed the part where the gangs threaten people to buy their guns........

 

[2aguy]

I never said I did.

But you missed the point that magazine size is irrelevant to anyone hell bent on killing people

But only people intent on killing lots of people want a 100 round magazine.

They can kill more people with a rental Truck.....the Vegas shooter had standard magazines and murdered 58 in 11 minutes of shooting......the rental truck in France murdered 89 people in 5 minutes.......

Magazines have nothing to do with the number murdered......