At least 6 dead in random shooting in Kalamazoo County, Michigan, suspect under arrest

[bornright]

Guns aren't helping too much right now, are they? Nobody with guns helping stop the problem, are they?

How many of these victims were carrying guns when they were shot?

 

[Freewill]

Guns aren't helping too much right now, are they? Nobody with guns helping stop the problem, are they?

Actually, according to bill clinton and supported by obama's CDC, Americans use guns to stop violent criminal attack 1,500,000 times a year....I would say that that is stopping the problem of violent criminal attack for those people....

If I already provided I apologize for asking. Could you provide a link to this statistic? thanks.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Guns aren't helping too much right now, are they? Nobody with guns helping stop the problem, are they?

Actually, according to bill clinton and supported by obama's CDC, Americans use guns to stop violent criminal attack 1,500,000 times a year....I would say that that is stopping the problem of violent criminal attack for those people....

If I already provided I apologize for asking. Could you provide a link to this statistic? thanks.

It's a total bullshit number. No one has anything like a good one but he loves to use the highest possible one to protect his deadly toys.

 

[2aguy]

Guns aren't helping too much right now, are they? Nobody with guns helping stop the problem, are they?

Actually, according to bill clinton and supported by obama's CDC, Americans use guns to stop violent criminal attack 1,500,000 times a year....I would say that that is stopping the problem of violent criminal attack for those people....

If I already provided I apologize for asking. Could you provide a link to this statistic? thanks.

Here you go.,.....I never get tired of showing all of the studies conducted on defensive gun use...the 1.5 million number comes from bill clinton's study he commissioned the Department of Justice to do to refute Dr. Gary Kleck's study....and they came up with 1.5 million defensive gun uses each year.....here are the rest...

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[paulitician]

The ugly reality is, the owners (U.S. Government) are incredibly greedy violent people. The slaves are merely emulating their master's behavior. America is an ugly greedy violent place. It trickles down from the top. Many around the world don't get it. How can the wealthiest nation on earth have so many unhappy violent people?

There are various reasons why. But greed might be the #1 reason. The quest for that almighty dollar drives many mad. Most can't keep up. Most realize it'll never be enough and that they're broke. That breaks people. It makes them bitter and angry. But Americans are indoctrinated on hate & greed from childhood. They're told they must consume and buy more stuff they don't need. And that they must support constant war. It starts very early on in life.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

The ugly reality is, the owners (U.S. Government) are incredibly greedy violent people. The slaves are merely emulating their master's behavior. America is an ugly greedy violent place. It trickles down from the top. Many around the world don't get it. How can the wealthiest nation on earth have so many unhappy violent people?

There are various reasons why. But greed might be the #1 reason. The quest for that almighty dollar drives many mad. Most can't keep up. Most realize it'll never be enough and that they're broke. That breaks people. It makes them bitter and angry. But Americans are indoctrinated on hate & greed from childhood. They're told they must consume and buy more stuff they don't need. It starts very early on in life.

^^^^ close enough for government work...

 

[OldLady]

TV shows and movies glorify violence and revenge. Murderers are considered "cool". News and fiction about violent crime are among the most numerous things on TV. It has nothing to do with allowing gays to marry.

No one who's insane enough to go around shooting people did it because they saw murders on TV. Grow up

You are oversimplifying his statement; I disagree. Humans killing humans is all over our children's culture, from video games to the movies and tv shows their parents allow them to watch 24/7 on the electronic babysitter, TV. It doesn't convince anyone to kill, but it desensitizes children to taking human life and for some children, that is a very bad lesson to learn.

And then this guy would have killed what, 5 people instead of 6?

And what do we do with this information? Make violence on TV illegal?

What is the relevance of the point and the applicability to the discussion?

And what do we do with this information? Make violence on TV illegal?
It's a start.

Seriously? You would censor TV? What about Republicans? Too much hate? Should we edit their speech? Fox is all hate, shouldn't they be off the air? What censorship do you support and oppose? Who gets to decide?

I'm not talking about freedom of speech; I'm talking about graphic violence. Minimizing violence on television and in other media is an idea that has been around for decades and you are welcome to explore it via google or whatever else if you're interested. Your questions show that you have no idea, yet, what I'm referring to.
Actually, I wish we could return to an era of more civil discourse, but those days are over and it isn't up to me to teach manners.

 

[OldLady]

The ugly reality is, the owners (U.S. Government) are incredibly greedy violent people. The slaves are merely emulating their master's behavior. America is an ugly greedy violent place. It trickles down from the top. Many around the world don't get it. How can the wealthiest nation on earth have so many unhappy violent people?

There are various reasons why. But greed might be the #1 reason. The quest for that almighty dollar drives many mad. Most can't keep up. Most realize it'll never be enough and that they're broke. That breaks people. It makes them bitter and angry. But Americans are indoctrinated on hate & greed from childhood. They're told they must consume and buy more stuff they don't need. And that they must support constant war. It starts very early on in life.

Don't you think that 'greed' among most of us consumers is because without the urge to keep buying, capitalist economies would not work. We have to keep consuming in order for our businesses to thrive, so we are constantly encouraged to buy more. That's the system we have chosen, so when you head to WalMart, consider that you are doing your patriotic duty! (Except that 90% of it was made in China, but don't think about that)

 

[Freewill]

The ugly reality is, the owners (U.S. Government) are incredibly greedy violent people. The slaves are merely emulating their master's behavior. America is an ugly greedy violent place. It trickles down from the top. Many around the world don't get it. How can the wealthiest nation on earth have so many unhappy violent people?

There are various reasons why. But greed might be the #1 reason. The quest for that almighty dollar drives many mad. Most can't keep up. Most realize it'll never be enough and that they're broke. That breaks people. It makes them bitter and angry. But Americans are indoctrinated on hate & greed from childhood. They're told they must consume and buy more stuff they don't need. And that they must support constant war. It starts very early on in life.

America still leads the world in charitable giving and in foreign aid. Both do not sound greedy to me.

 

[paulitician]

The ugly reality is, the owners (U.S. Government) are incredibly greedy violent people. The slaves are merely emulating their master's behavior. America is an ugly greedy violent place. It trickles down from the top. Many around the world don't get it. How can the wealthiest nation on earth have so many unhappy violent people?

There are various reasons why. But greed might be the #1 reason. The quest for that almighty dollar drives many mad. Most can't keep up. Most realize it'll never be enough and that they're broke. That breaks people. It makes them bitter and angry. But Americans are indoctrinated on hate & greed from childhood. They're told they must consume and buy more stuff they don't need. And that they must support constant war. It starts very early on in life.

Don't you think that 'greed' among most of us consumers is because without the urge to keep buying, capitalist economies would not work. We have to keep consuming in order for our businesses to thrive, so we are constantly encouraged to buy more. That's the system we have chosen, so when you head to WalMart, consider that you are doing your patriotic duty! (Except that 90% of it was made in China, but don't think about that)

Yes, we're indoctrinated on the 'Trickle Down - you must consume' concept. But obviously it doesn't trickle down. It only trickles up to the Corporate Elite. Most continue to struggle along going broke. But it's all we know. We're slaves.

And then there's the indoctrination on supporting Permanent War. That starts when we're children too. The Owners are greedy violent people. And that's the only trickle down going on. The slaves are just doing what they know.

 

[paulitician]

The ugly reality is, the owners (U.S. Government) are incredibly greedy violent people. The slaves are merely emulating their master's behavior. America is an ugly greedy violent place. It trickles down from the top. Many around the world don't get it. How can the wealthiest nation on earth have so many unhappy violent people?

There are various reasons why. But greed might be the #1 reason. The quest for that almighty dollar drives many mad. Most can't keep up. Most realize it'll never be enough and that they're broke. That breaks people. It makes them bitter and angry. But Americans are indoctrinated on hate & greed from childhood. They're told they must consume and buy more stuff they don't need. And that they must support constant war. It starts very early on in life.

America still leads the world in charitable giving and in foreign aid. Both do not sound greedy to me.

That's to only benefit the Government/Corporate Elite. 'Foregn Aid' is another ugly scam. It's just the Elites buying off corrupt foreigners for their own self-interests.

 

[Freewill]

Guns aren't helping too much right now, are they? Nobody with guns helping stop the problem, are they?

Actually, according to bill clinton and supported by obama's CDC, Americans use guns to stop violent criminal attack 1,500,000 times a year....I would say that that is stopping the problem of violent criminal attack for those people....

If I already provided I apologize for asking. Could you provide a link to this statistic? thanks.

Here you go.,.....I never get tired of showing all of the studies conducted on defensive gun use...the 1.5 million number comes from bill clinton's study he commissioned the Department of Justice to do to refute Dr. Gary Kleck's study....and they came up with 1.5 million defensive gun uses each year.....here are the rest...

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

I am not arguing with you I am just trying to get to the truth. Myself I worry about people carrying guns and being paranoid. A friend of mine whose wife dropped a Glock and it discharged, no safety on a Glock. He had been paranoid for years about the government and other things. I am sure he blamed the wife for dropping the weapon.

My brother carries everywhere he goes, church, hospitals, anywhere. When asked why all he says is just in case.

I guess one could make statistics that say all crime that might have been perpetrated by someone was stopped just because a person had a gun.

Any way, the 2 million number seems to be crazy high. That would equal about 10 percent of all crime, sorry not believing that. Here is an article from the DOJ about this very subject.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

 

[Little-Acorn]

But what people hear most about is shootings like this where there was no effecive defense to be used against a surprise attack.

The main need for people to own and carry guns, is not to defend against surprise attacks.

If slime like this shooter knew that there would probably be some armed people among those he wants to shoot, he'll be a little less likely to start shooting, knowing he won't get the high body counts he wants before someone stops him. That won't stop all such shooters, some of them being crazier than others, but it will stop some. And so lives will be saved (in those cases) without any law-abiding citizens firing a shot.

Deterrence is the most important reason why all law-abiding adults should be allowed to own and carry guns, usually concealed. Most of them still won't bother, but a few will. And potential shooters know it. So some of those shooters (at least) will decide not to start shooting in the first place.

 

[Freewill]

But what people hear most about is shootings like this where there was no effecive defense to be used against a surprise attack.

The main need for people to own and carry guns, is not to defend against surprise attacks.

If slime like this shooter knew that there would probably be some armed people among those he wants to shoot, he'll be a little less likely to start shooting, knowing he won't get the high body counts he wants before someone stops him. That won't stop all such shooters, some of them being crazier than others, but it will stop some. And so lives will be saved (in those cases) without any law-abiding citizens firing a shot.

Deterrence is the most important reason why all law-abiding adults should be allowed to own and carry guns, usually concealed. Most of them still won't bother, but a few will. And potential shooters know it. So some of those shooters (at least) will decide not to start shooting in the first place.

What if what you are saying is absolutely true already?

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

 

[namvet]

SOS diff day

 

[PredFan]

Kalamazoo already has tough gun laws. They didn't work.

Bustle

They never do work. There has never been any evidence that they do anything.

Work great in Japan. A handfull of gun murders a year.

Japan has a different demographic. Plus, they aren't afraid to employ the death penalty.

Japan also isn't as violent as we are.

Actually they would be but they actually put criminals in jail.

There are likely many reasons, and that is certainly one of them.

 

[2aguy]

Guns aren't helping too much right now, are they? Nobody with guns helping stop the problem, are they?

Actually, according to bill clinton and supported by obama's CDC, Americans use guns to stop violent criminal attack 1,500,000 times a year....I would say that that is stopping the problem of violent criminal attack for those people....

If I already provided I apologize for asking. Could you provide a link to this statistic? thanks.

Here you go.,.....I never get tired of showing all of the studies conducted on defensive gun use...the 1.5 million number comes from bill clinton's study he commissioned the Department of Justice to do to refute Dr. Gary Kleck's study....and they came up with 1.5 million defensive gun uses each year.....here are the rest...

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

I am not arguing with you I am just trying to get to the truth. Myself I worry about people carrying guns and being paranoid. A friend of mine whose wife dropped a Glock and it discharged, no safety on a Glock. He had been paranoid for years about the government and other things. I am sure he blamed the wife for dropping the weapon.

My brother carries everywhere he goes, church, hospitals, anywhere. When asked why all he says is just in case.

I guess one could make statistics that say all crime that might have been perpetrated by someone was stopped just because a person had a gun.

Any way, the 2 million number seems to be crazy high. That would equal about 10 percent of all crime, sorry not believing that. Here is an article from the DOJ about this very subject.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

The violence policy center is DOJ......it is a rabid anti gun org.

And I gave you all of the studies....including the Dept. of Justice Study, and all the others........

And Glocks have drop safeties and trigger safeties...so I doubt it fired when it was dropped.

 

[2aguy]

Guns aren't helping too much right now, are they? Nobody with guns helping stop the problem, are they?

Actually, according to bill clinton and supported by obama's CDC, Americans use guns to stop violent criminal attack 1,500,000 times a year....I would say that that is stopping the problem of violent criminal attack for those people....

If I already provided I apologize for asking. Could you provide a link to this statistic? thanks.

Here you go.,.....I never get tired of showing all of the studies conducted on defensive gun use...the 1.5 million number comes from bill clinton's study he commissioned the Department of Justice to do to refute Dr. Gary Kleck's study....and they came up with 1.5 million defensive gun uses each year.....here are the rest...

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

I am not arguing with you I am just trying to get to the truth. Myself I worry about people carrying guns and being paranoid. A friend of mine whose wife dropped a Glock and it discharged, no safety on a Glock. He had been paranoid for years about the government and other things. I am sure he blamed the wife for dropping the weapon.

My brother carries everywhere he goes, church, hospitals, anywhere. When asked why all he says is just in case.

I guess one could make statistics that say all crime that might have been perpetrated by someone was stopped just because a person had a gun.

Any way, the 2 million number seems to be crazy high. That would equal about 10 percent of all crime, sorry not believing that. Here is an article from the DOJ about this very subject.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

This "study" is not even a real study......Justifiable Homicide only looks at criminals killed by armed citizens....the smallest number of defensive gun uses...that is why this "study" is crap. The actual research which I listed, captures all defensive gun uses, even the most common where no shots are fired and the criminal runs away.

Never trust the Violence Policy Center, they have been caught lying more than a few times.....

 

[2aguy]

Guns aren't helping too much right now, are they? Nobody with guns helping stop the problem, are they?

Actually, according to bill clinton and supported by obama's CDC, Americans use guns to stop violent criminal attack 1,500,000 times a year....I would say that that is stopping the problem of violent criminal attack for those people....

If I already provided I apologize for asking. Could you provide a link to this statistic? thanks.

Here you go.,.....I never get tired of showing all of the studies conducted on defensive gun use...the 1.5 million number comes from bill clinton's study he commissioned the Department of Justice to do to refute Dr. Gary Kleck's study....and they came up with 1.5 million defensive gun uses each year.....here are the rest...

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

I am not arguing with you I am just trying to get to the truth. Myself I worry about people carrying guns and being paranoid. A friend of mine whose wife dropped a Glock and it discharged, no safety on a Glock. He had been paranoid for years about the government and other things. I am sure he blamed the wife for dropping the weapon.

My brother carries everywhere he goes, church, hospitals, anywhere. When asked why all he says is just in case.

I guess one could make statistics that say all crime that might have been perpetrated by someone was stopped just because a person had a gun.

Any way, the 2 million number seems to be crazy high. That would equal about 10 percent of all crime, sorry not believing that. Here is an article from the DOJ about this very subject.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

And Hemenway is an actual, discredited researcher....he uses the National Crime Victimization Survey for his number on guns self defense...

Do you realize that the National Crime Victimization Survey is not a gun self defense survey......it looks at victims of crime, not self defense. It does not ask about gun self defense and does not have the words gun self defense anywhere in the survey.....

Not only is it not a gun self defense survey, it has been documented that the National Crime Victimization Survey under reports the actual crimes it is supposed to be reporting on.........