At this point, we know the differences are irreconcilable between libs and conservatives

[Ray From Cleveland]

Look how Dumb Donald is trying to jump on the Zelensky bandwagon. When Trump was in power, he withheld weapons from President Zelensky and urged him repeatedly to settle with Putin. A week ago he was praising Putin's invasion as a "genius move". Now Trump is cheering for Zelensky, even though he was completely prepared to throw him Zelensky under the bus last week when Putin invaded.

Trump never withheld weapons from Ukraine. Those weapons were delivered well before the deadline. Trump said Putin was a genius. Was he wrong? Putin waited for our leadership to be so weak he could walk all over us. I say that was pretty smart. It doesn't mean Trump is on his side. That's just more Communist propaganda by the MSM.

 

[AntonToo]

Yes, and he laughed his ass off as democrats used a ridiculous conspiracy theory to weaken a US President.

Bullshit, what "weakening"?? Trump had all the foreign policy tools he has always had. If he had wanted to deploy American troops to defend Ukraine (probably the only policy that would keep Putin from invasion) he could have done that, just like biden could have.

They didn't not, because almost everyone thought that wasn't a good idea.

Alot of rightwingers throw around this half-baked fluff, but have no clue when it comes to account for serious policy effects.

 

[AntonToo]

He is flush with Petrobucks thanks to Biden

You are flush with bullshit. Rubel has crashed 30% against $ and Russian interest rates have just jumped to 20%. People are lining up as far as the eye could see to withdraw cash out of their banks.

Russian central bank hikes rate to 20% in emergency move, tells firms to sell FX

The Russian central bank raised its key interest rate to 20% from 9.5% on Monday in an emergency move, and authorities told export-focused companies to sell foreign currency as the rouble tumbled to record lows.

www.reuters.com

Putin screwed his people hard. If this was happening in a country where leadership is held reponsibile to the people his ass would be out of power real soon.

 

[Dragonlady]

The reason Putin and Xi and Kim Jong Un and Khamenei didn't challenge Trump was because they couldn't predict his reaction.

Khamenei tried, and Trump killed his most popular general. We killed more than 100 Russian forces in Syria when they attacked a Kurdish base- Putin did nothing. When Trump sent cruise missiles from the Med, the Russians moved their ships and aircraft out of harms way.

They don't have Trump to deal with now, of course they are going to take advantage of the situation. They aren't even interested in meeting with Biden, he is completely sidelined.

Rationalize it however you like. There are a number of contemporaneous memos and transcripts from the highest levels, in multiple countries, that describe the assurances given. What we showed Russia is that we can't be trusted.

I imagine if China started entering into security agreements with our neighbors, and basing right on our borders, we would be pretty uptight about it.

So why didn't Obama do anything in 2014?

Putin has been laughing his ass off for the last 5 years as you dems fell all over yourselves with your Trump-Russia hoax. No one has done more to empower Putin than democrats.

Honestly, If you think Putin and Xi (and Iran and North Korea) are not going to take advantage of a helpless US President, you are naive. This is just the opening shot.

Neither the Ukraine nor the United States are the same countries they were 5 years ago. The corrupt Russian puppets are gone from the highest levels Ukrainian government, although they continue to lurk in opposition. The corrupt Russian puppets in the American government are also gone, with Trump's loss in the 2020 election.

Trump's attempts to fracture NATO and pull the USA out of its NATO Alliance Agreements, was completely unsuccessful. And despite Trump's failure to implement addition sanctions on the Russians, Please don't try to fool us with the list of Russian sanction Trump announced. Show us where he carried them out.

 

[para bellum]

...Trump's attempts to fracture NATO and pull the USA out of its NATO Alliance Agreements, was completely unsuccessful.

So goes the narrative. Lol. You guys are like myna birds.

It's s good thing Trump forced NATO-EU to pony up, they wouldn't even have the forces to deploy in their traditional speed bump formation. Other than a tiny QRF (with ammunition supplied by us), NATO-Europe can't even muster up enough troops to put on a good parade.

Europeans refused to maintain credible deterrent, and btw, they treat their veterans like crap. If they don't want to see to the defense of Europe, why the hell should I care?

You think flowery statements of NATO solidarity from defenseless European countries deters Putin?

You guys, with your stupid posturing, managed to take a country with an economy the size of Italy, and restore them to super power status. And also align them even more closely with China in the process...

And cooking on the back burner is Iran, newly flush with billions of $$$ thanks to Biden's sanctions relief. Nuclear arms race in the Mid-East likely, as KSA and Egypt will both have to get nukes from Pakistan or China.

Neither the Ukraine nor the United States are the same countries they were 5 years ago. The corrupt Russian puppets are gone from the highest levels Ukrainian government

Oh sure, lol. This is probably the funniest thing I have read all day. Do you know any Ukrainians?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Trump's attempts to fracture NATO and pull the USA out of its NATO Alliance Agreements, was completely unsuccessful. And despite Trump's failure to implement addition sanctions on the Russians, Please don't try to fool us with the list of Russian sanction Trump announced. Show us where he carried them out.

The Trump administration’s policy actions often seemed at odds with the President’s rhetoric. To set the record on policy actions, rather than rhetoric, Alina Polyakova and Filippos Letsas tracked the administration’s concrete actions on Russia from 2017 to 2019.

Trump Administration actions on Russia​

Total number of policy actions: 52
*Policy actions in black, relevant events in red below.

On the record: The U.S. administration’s actions on Russia | Brookings

What has the administration actually done on Russia? Below is a chronological list of its actions and official statements since January 20, 2017. During that period, the administration has taken 27 actions on Russia.

www.brookings.edu

 

[Flopper]

Yeah, I don't think any of that would accessible to the general public. Russia and Ukraine both are pretty secretive about their finances. I'm still looking. I found one site, but it wanted me to pay for information. I wasn't sure I could get what I was looking for, so I didn't bother.


Yeltsin was the end of the old guard. Just my opinion. Yours may be different. I've seen nothing from Putin to make me think he wants Russia to return to communism. I'm sure he'd like his land back though.
Russia has an election coming up in 2024. We'll see if the people still want him. It's their choice.

The most influential men that surround Putin is his inter circle, Sergei Shoigu, Alexander Bortnikov, Nikolai Patrushev and Sergei Naryshkin. They are all close advisers and allies to Vladimir Putin. These people rose up through the ranks of the KGB and FSI as did Putin and have a hawkish, Cold War mindset. They believe themselves in an existential battle with the West where the ultimate goal of the US is regime change. These are the true old guard with an undying hatred of America and western democracy. I have no doubt that these men see a Putin victory in Ukraine as an essential step in the rise of new Soviet Union.

In the last few years, their influence has grown as Putin has shifted his focus from economic and social issues towards perceived security-related threats, including the crushing of civil society and internal dissent.

Vladimir Putin: The security men, officials, and friends who are in his inner circle

His close associates include the Siloviki - the security men around Putin, most of whom rose up through the ranks of the KGB as he did and have a hawkish, Cold War mindset.

news.sky.com

Putin enjoys wide spread support of people although his policies are far less popular. Thanks to an overwhelming vote of confidence from about three-fourths of the Russian electorate, Vladimir Putin now can remain president of Russia until 2036. He will be 84 years old when he completes the second of the two additional six-year terms that Russian voters awarded him in a referendum that ended on June 30.

With 12 years in office he has the time to rebuilt a new Russia empire. He doesn't have to be concerned with things like sanctions damaging his chance for reelection. He no longer has to pay homage to the democratic gains over last two decades.

 

[Dragonlady]

The reason Putin and Xi and Kim Jong Un and Khamenei didn't challenge Trump was because they couldn't predict his reaction.

Khamenei tried, and Trump killed his most popular general. We killed more than 100 Russian forces in Syria when they attacked a Kurdish base- Putin did nothing. When Trump sent cruise missiles from the Med, the Russians moved their ships and aircraft out of harms way.

They don't have Trump to deal with now, of course they are going to take advantage of the situation. They aren't even interested in meeting with Biden, he is completely sidelined.

Bullshit. They didn't challenge Trump because they didn't have to. They flattered him, bribed him, and made him feel like a member of the "strongman's club".

The Iranians came within inches of declaring war on the USA over this despicable breach of international law.

American forces killed 200 Russian mercenaries, not regular soldiers. Likely so tools like you could point to Americans killing Russian to prove Trump wasn't Putin's Puppet.

Putin has chosen to believe Republicans and the the right wing media which portrays Joe Biden as mentally diminished, weak, and lacking in support from the American people. Biden has completely out-manouvered Vladimir Putin in regards to rebuilding NATO, and managing the sanctions and other response to Putin's aggression.

Republicans are once again, putting party over country, and cheering on Putin in the hopes it will help them in the mid-terms.

 

[Flopper]

Nope, Putin certainly did not "embrace democratic government". He embraced authroritarianism with a pretense to democracy.

People putting their vote in IS NOT A DEMOCRACY MAKE.

There are no competetive elections in Russia,
no serious political opposition,
no true separation of power and Judicial independance
no peaceful transfer of power,
no true choices being made in the market of ideas.

This power hungry thug sustains his regime by subjugating media and squashing his political opposition with tactics which include jailings and assasinations.

Embraced democratic governmet? What a joke.

Maybe I chose the wrong word. Putin certain did not oppose the democratic changes in the 1990's. In fact he advocated a philosophy of managed democracy and cautioned against moving too rapidly. In his election campaign of 2012, he agreed with demonstrators seeking more freedom. After he won the election, the term managed democracy was no longer in his vocabulary. The more popular he became the more he moved to undermine the gains over the past 25 years.

 

[Flopper]

I'm not quite sure I can agree with your prognosis but in any case I'm not going to get into fighting andy armchair wars with any of you. Fwiw, I think you're buying into a little too much propaganda.

I wonder if Zelensky is making any of the decisions now? But I don't think any possible settlement will be seen as throwing in the towel by either side. If peace talks succeed, if will need to be politically spun as a victory for both sides.

If the losses Russia has suffered are anywhere near true, I would say that Putin will take it all and then demilitarize the Ukraine. Contrary to US/Nato propaganda, the Ukraine recently had the majority of Ukrainians favouring Russia. The US won't allow a fair election and it's impossible anyway with Russia owning the Crimea and the two Donbass regions declared as free states.
But sadly, neither a solution that would be suitable for the US/Nato or Russia seems possible.

Much depends on Putin's resolve and the Russian people's resolve?

Perhaps, but don't discount the pro-Russian sentiments of a great number of Ukrainians and the fact that it appears they're being used as cannon fodder for US gain.



It wasn't but it has become a threat to Russia under US/Nato directions. A detailed explanation is perhaps needed but I'll leave it at that for now.

I agree the most likely outcome is new government in Ukraine . John McCain once described Ukraine as the jewel in the crown of the Soviet Union. I think that is Putin's vision. To think Putin is going to stop with the Ukraine is hopefully thinking. I think he's going make moves toward Poland, maybe not a full invasion but enough to worry the West.

 

[Flopper]

Trump never withheld weapons from Ukraine. Those weapons were delivered well before the deadline. Trump said Putin was a genius. Was he wrong? Putin waited for our leadership to be so weak he could walk all over us. I say that was pretty smart. It doesn't mean Trump is on his side. That's just more Communist propaganda by the MSM.

Yes, Trump was wrong. Putin is a dangerous leader with dreams of restoring Russia to it's days of glory when the USSR sent Americans into bomb shelters, but he is no genius.

In a clumsy attempt to force a permanent solution to his “Ukraine problem,” in recent months, Putin deployed a massive military force that could neither be maintained in the field indefinitely nor withdrawn without significant internal and external audience costs. Now that, all too predictably, neither Ukraine nor NATO has acceded to his demands, he has found himself with no choice but to use the massive military force that he originally thought he could wield bloodlessly to bully his way to victory. These are not the fruits of strategic genius. Putin is now faced with a bloody war, an occupation which may well end in a long campaign or a humiliatingly negotiation with Ukraine. His plan to weaken NATO by denying Ukraine has backfired. NATO is now stronger and more consolidate than in decades which almost guarantees a larger military commitment from members. And now Russia is facing significant sanctions from almost every major nation on earth sending markets into a free fall in Russia and the likelihood of a recession, and you think this is the work of a genius.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The russians would consider it an excuse

Some. But my point stands.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Yes, Trump was wrong. Putin is a dangerous leader with dreams of restoring Russia to it's days of glory when the USSR sent Americans into bomb shelters, but he is no genius.

In a clumsy attempt to force a permanent solution to his “Ukraine problem,” in recent months, Putin deployed a massive military force that could neither be maintained in the field indefinitely nor withdrawn without significant internal and external audience costs. Now that, all too predictably, neither Ukraine nor NATO has acceded to his demands, he has found himself with no choice but to use the massive military force that he originally thought he could wield bloodlessly to bully his way to victory. These are not the fruits of strategic genius. Putin is now faced with a bloody war, an occupation which may well end in a long campaign or a humiliatingly negotiation with Ukraine. His plan to weaken NATO by denying Ukraine has backfired. NATO is now stronger and more consolidate than in decades which almost guarantees a larger military commitment from members. And now Russia is facing significant sanctions from almost every major nation on earth sending markets into a free fall in Russia and the likelihood of a recession, and you think this is the work of a genius.

If he didn't move now he'd never be able to move. What would happen if we elected a real President in the future? He'd be Fd. And only Congress has the authorization to declare war which hasn't happened since WWII. But this is the closest we've ever been to a nuclear war since those weapons were developed.

I really don't think a lot of people understand the seriousness of all this. Even people in Putin's inner-circle have stated something is wrong with this guy. He may not be in his right mind.
Did you see the news tonight? Russia has a 3 mile convoy going to the capital. That means Putin's intensions is not only of taking over the city, but taking over the entire government. There is not much we can do as we are now dependent on Russian oil, and we have this balless old fuck that only thinks about his party and nobody else. He's not going to limit Russian oil because that could very well put is in a recession that may take years to get out of, even right up to his next election or whoever the DNC chooses to run. And he's not going to increase production for us and our European allies either because he's not going to turn his back on the environmentalists.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Bullshit. They didn't challenge Trump because they didn't have to. They flattered him, bribed him, and made him feel like a member of the "strongman's club".

The Iranians came within inches of declaring war on the USA over this despicable breach of international law.

American forces killed 200 Russian mercenaries, not regular soldiers. Likely so tools like you could point to Americans killing Russian to prove Trump wasn't Putin's Puppet.

Putin has chosen to believe Republicans and the the right wing media which portrays Joe Biden as mentally diminished, weak, and lacking in support from the American people. Biden has completely out-manouvered Vladimir Putin in regards to rebuilding NATO, and managing the sanctions and other response to Putin's aggression.

Republicans are once again, putting party over country, and cheering on Putin in the hopes it will help them in the mid-terms.

Help Republicans at mid-terms? Are you crazy or something? Republicans don't need help at all. We're taking over Congress next election. It's not a matter of if, but a matter by how much. The only person with worse approval ratings than Dementia is your very own Trudeau. Dementia has taken no steps to improve anything in our country and people are now regretting their vote. The guy is a disaster and even the MSM has given up on trying to bail him out.

 

[YoursTruly]

Help Republicans at mid-terms? Are you crazy or something? Republicans don't need help at all. We're taking over Congress next election. It's not a matter of if, but a matter by how much. The only person with worse approval ratings than Dementia is your very own Trudeau. Dementia has taken no steps to improve anything in our country and people are now regretting their vote. The guy is a disaster and even the MSM has given up on trying to bail him out.

Just for funzies, lets say that 1 year after a presidential election, there was as day where people could get a refund on their votes. Not vote for someone else. Just abolish their vote like they never cast it.

Biden would've been long gone.

I'm just glad our presidential elections are 4 years, and not 10.

 

[YoursTruly]

The most influential men that surround Putin is his inter circle, Sergei Shoigu, Alexander Bortnikov, Nikolai Patrushev and Sergei Naryshkin. They are all close advisers and allies to Vladimir Putin. These people rose up through the ranks of the KGB and FSI as did Putin and have a hawkish, Cold War mindset. They believe themselves in an existential battle with the West where the ultimate goal of the US is regime change. These are the true old guard with an undying hatred of America and western democracy. I have no doubt that these men see a Putin victory in Ukraine as an essential step in the rise of new Soviet Union.

In the last few years, their influence has grown as Putin has shifted his focus from economic and social issues towards perceived security-related threats, including the crushing of civil society and internal dissent.

Vladimir Putin: The security men, officials, and friends who are in his inner circle

His close associates include the Siloviki - the security men around Putin, most of whom rose up through the ranks of the KGB as he did and have a hawkish, Cold War mindset.

news.sky.com

Putin enjoys wide spread support of people although his policies are far less popular. Thanks to an overwhelming vote of confidence from about three-fourths of the Russian electorate, Vladimir Putin now can remain president of Russia until 2036. He will be 84 years old when he completes the second of the two additional six-year terms that Russian voters awarded him in a referendum that ended on June 30.

With 12 years in office he has the time to rebuilt a new Russia empire. He doesn't have to be concerned with things like sanctions damaging his chance for reelection. He no longer has to pay homage to the democratic gains over last two decades.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the notion of Putin trying to get Russia back to a communist country.

 

[Burgermeister]

I'm just really disappointed that two guys with Bogey avatars don't agree.

 

[dudmuck]

Trump never withheld weapons from Ukraine. Those weapons were delivered well before the deadline. Trump said Putin was a genius. Was he wrong? Putin waited for our leadership to be so weak he could walk all over us. I say that was pretty smart. It doesn't mean Trump is on his side. That's just more Communist propaganda by the MSM.

Trump halted it for 55 days.

Timeline: How Trump withheld Ukraine aid

The Center for Public Integrity is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates betrayals of public trust. Sign up to receive our stories. The Trump administration’s 55-day halt this summer of hundreds of millions of dollars in military assistance and weapons sales to Ukraine was initially...

publicintegrity.org

and Russia has to deal with NATO, not the USA.
get your facts straight.

 

[Burgermeister]

Trump halted it for 55 days.

Timeline: How Trump withheld Ukraine aid

The Center for Public Integrity is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates betrayals of public trust. Sign up to receive our stories. The Trump administration’s 55-day halt this summer of hundreds of millions of dollars in military assistance and weapons sales to Ukraine was initially...

publicintegrity.org

and Russia has to deal with NATO, not the USA.
get your facts straight.

Trump released lethal weapons to Ukraine, including the javelin missiles that are holding back Russia right now. It's all Trump. Deal with it.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Trump halted it for 55 days.

Timeline: How Trump withheld Ukraine aid

The Center for Public Integrity is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates betrayals of public trust. Sign up to receive our stories. The Trump administration’s 55-day halt this summer of hundreds of millions of dollars in military assistance and weapons sales to Ukraine was initially...

publicintegrity.org

and Russia has to deal with NATO, not the USA.
get your facts straight.

So what does that have to do with my comment they were delivered on time? Had they not been Congress would have had to reissue the aid and provide another date.

NATO is the USA. Without us NATO is as useless as tits on a bull.