Zone1 Atheism Has No Basis for the Idea of Good or Evil, Just or Unjust

[Weatherman2020]

The bible clearly states your very thoughts can be sins. Maybe you should reread it.

I know.

Dobby bad!

 

[Weatherman2020]

We've always had crime even when people were so afraid of the power of the church they wouldn't dare criticize it.

The fact is that only a minuscule fraction of people are actually criminals.

Name 2 mass shootings in America 1776-1960.

Two.

 

[Foxfyre]

The apologetics never stop.

Human secularism is why we have the morals we do today.
It's why we abolished slavery
It's why we give women equal treatment under the law
It's why we have representative government.

And of course you have to believe you are nothing but a wicked sinner. If you didn't your religion would have no power over you and you obviously want it to.

You'll have to dig very deep in history to make ANY case that human secularism abolished slavery or why women have equal treatment under the law or why we have representative government. I do not believe I am a wicked sinner but I know that I sin as does every human being on Earth that has ability to know the difference between right and wrong. And I am pretty certain that I can assure you that if the Church is zapped off the Earth, you won't like the degree of sin that will remain in its wake.

 

[Blues Man]

You'll have to dig very deep in history to make ANY case that human secularism abolished slavery or why women have equal treatment under the law or why we have representative government. I do not believe I am a wicked sinner but I know that I sin as does every human being on Earth that has ability to know the difference between right and wrong. And I am pretty certain that I can assure you that if the Church is zapped off the Earth, you won't like the degree of sin that will remain in its wake.

Denial

And the Church is in decline and will continue to be and things are far better for people than they were when the church held the power it did 500 years ago.

 

[Blues Man]

Name 2 mass shootings in America 1776-1960.

Two.

The fact is even with mass shootings the murder rate is about as high as it was IN 1950

And such a ridiculously low percentage of the population commits mass shootings that it's statistically zero

If you were right about nonbelievers and morals there would be a fuck of a lot more mass shootings and murders than there are now.

 

[Weatherman2020]

The fact is even with mass shootings the murder rate is about as high as it was IN 1950

And such a ridiculously low percentage of the population commits mass shootings that it's statistically zero

If you were right about nonbelievers and morals there would be a fuck of a lot more mass shootings and murders than there are now.

1960 murder rate was 5.0 per 100k

Today it’s 6.8

 

[Blues Man]

1960 murder rate was 5.0 per 100k

Today it’s 6.8

OOOOHHHHHH so much higher. A whopping .0018% increase in the number of murders OH MY FUCKING GAWWWWWD

 

[Weatherman2020]

OOOOHHHHHH so much higher. A whopping .0018% increase in the number of murders OH MY FUCKING GAWWWWWD

So
A. Why are you bitching about guns?
B. I’m sure those 700 people care.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Only a retard like you thinks that because he's attributed his morality to an invisible being in the sky, his morality is superior to someone else's or is absolute.

Is a raccoon eating baby squirrels moral?

Without God, we’re just another animal.

 

[Red Front]

The moderators allow Weatherman to insult me but if I return the insult, all of my posts get deleted. Amazing.

 

[ding]

Are Buddhists atheists, stupid?

I have a dragon in my garage. Care to compare his moral to your God's?

I did not think so, as you know my dragon would eat your God and spit him into hell.

Buddhists atheists are not necessarily stupid, no.

Don't you mean I should compare your dragon in the garage to the morals you imagine are God's?

 

[ding]

I thought religion was revealed truth. My mistake, thanks for the clarification.

Truth exists independent of man. Men are always compelled to seek and discover truth. Religious interpretations - being interpreted by men - are not immune from error or misunderstanding. Even I don't agree with every interpretation of the Catholic Church and that is allowed because all that matter is truth as God is truth... among other "things."

I keep wondering why you care though? I'm perfectly fine with you following your conscience. I don't think you can say the same thing. I'm not fond of uniformity. I prefer diversity. Why do you want me to be like you? Is there something special about you that I should aspire to be?

 

[dblack]

Morals from math?? !!

Show how that works, exactly, please.

Show the equation for not killing/murdering.

It's in that link I posted. Here's a video of you prefer:

 

[ding]

There is no need to interpret the killing of children.

Either it was done or it wasn't and your bible says it was done.

You'll do anything to defend the depravity of your religion

How exactly do you know God had anyone killed? Or anything else for that matter? What is your source?

 

[dblack]

It’s why we have so much crime. People are turning away from God.

You can’t tell me you’ve never been in a situation where you could have gotten away with a crime, even a petty crime.

If course I have. But didn't indulge because I believe in law and order, because if everyone behaved the way you suggest, society would crumble.

 

[dblack]

Without God, we’re just another animal.

Speak for yourself.

But then, I guess you are.

 

[buttercup]

That's false. An atheist who holds life sacred (values and cherishes life) can infer from experience what are the patterns of thought and behavior that are conducive for life and those that aren't. All patterns of thought and behavior that contribute to the survival and flourishing of life, can be the atheist's basis for morality.

That is not an objective basis for morality. Why? Let me count the ways. For starters, the human mind is not infallible, and it's limited. Also, different humans have different ideas about things. For one person "contributing to the survival and flourishing of life" might mean killing off the handicapped and the elderly. For others that would be deeply wrong.

Anything that comes from the human mind is subjective. So atheism does not have an objective basis for morality. No atheist has ever put forth a valid argument for the existence of objective morality in a godless world. This is one of the biggest problems with atheism.

At the end of the day, all human morality is established by human beings through faith or a subjective framework of beliefs and values. You can pretend you got your morals from the heavens but that's just the way you feel, your beliefs, "faith", not an objective fact that can be proven scientifically or empirically.

That's your opinion, not the truth. And btw, it's an opinion held by people like Ted Bundy. (I could provide a quote, if you don't believe me.)

A person who sees life itself, especially human life as having intrinsic value, then goes on to establish a system of ethics based upon that conviction that life is of the highest value, holds to a superior, more constructive, life-affirming system of morality than a Christian whose only reason for being good is a heavenly reward of eternal life in celestial, divine opulence or the fear of going to hell.

A Christian whose only reason for being moral, is because a powerful, mighty deity is going to grant him the privilege of living forever in an eternal beach resort or is threatening to torture him, doesn't have a superior morality, because of that. It's the opposite, he doesn't have a better set of morals due to his religious beliefs, when those morals are based on heavenly rewards or threats of being tortured in hell.

That is not a Christian's reason for being moral. Like Blues Man, you are trying to speak for believers, as an atheist. Let believers speak for themselves.

A truly moral atheist who is good due to his love and reverence for life itself, seeing infinite value in life, possesses a superior, more impressive, and life-supporting moral foundation, than a Christian who hardly ever takes responsibility for his bad behavior, shifting the blame on the devil or placing his or her sins on an innocent person hanging on a cross.

How is Christian morality, which in many ways is a "might makes right" morality based upon an almighty deity that "said it, hence it's so", superior to a morality that is well reasoned, thought-out, discussed, debated, and only accepted on its own merits when proven to improve people's lives?

Your religious morality is a blind, bullied, unquestionable, irrational, absolutist morality, based on the pipe dream of living forever in heaven or your fear of being tortured in hell for all eternity. How is that a superior form of ethics to an atheist one based on love and reverence for humanity and life in general?

As an agnostic my morality has to be life-serving and empowering, it must prioritize the survival and success of life, especially human life. Why do I value life, especially human life? I'm a human being who is alive and I love life, I want to live and not die anytime soon (Let the magots go hungry).

The foundation of my morality begins with my love and respect for my own life, and my desire for being well and successful, hence from there I can develop empathy for and respect, even love the lives of others. The world doesn't revolve around me, there is something bigger than me, like humanity as a whole and its future survival and success. I love my family and friends, I love my community and my country. I love, and that is what my morality is based upon, not a promise of eternal life in heavenly luxury or a deity threatening me with hell.

How can I love a god that eternally tortures human beings in hell forever, because they didn't convert to the correct brand of Christianity? How can any moral person serve such a deity? How can anyone enjoy heaven, knowing that their parents, spouse, children, and friends are being tortured by god in hell? That's not a god of love and justice, but a sadistic, evil god, who lacks creativity, love, and power. Can't he figure out a better way of reforming humanity? Why do human beings have to figure everything out in one lifetime? That's nonsense and immoral. Your version of God isn't God, it's Satan. The devil. I don't reject God, I reject your crappy definition of Him. Your concept of God is flawed.

You have it backwards. "Might makes right" is a consequence of moral relativism which goes hand in hand with atheism.... it's not a consequence of faith in God. Look back at history at the hundreds of millions of people who were killed by Communist dictators, who believed that they were the highest power, and not accountable to anyone. "Might makes right" sure seemed to be their motto.

 

[ding]

YOU believe it to be true. That's the point.

You don't care if the god you worship is a psycho

No, I don't accept your interpretations. If I did, I would believe as you do. But since I don't interpret these passages like you do, I don't believe God is a psycho. Instead I believe you are ignorant for interpreting ancient texts the way you do.

And you don't think that calling God a psycho is an insult to me. It's as much as an insult as your silly insistence as using the word "gods." You condemn respect for people of faith because you don't believe they deserve respect because according to you they worship a psycho.

 

[Red Front]

That is not an objective basis for morality. Why? Let me count the ways. For starters, the human mind is not infallible, and it's limited. Also, different humans have different ideas about things. For one person "contributing to the survival and flourishing of life" might mean killing off the handicapped and the elderly. For others that would be deeply wrong.

Anything that comes from the human mind is subjective. So atheism does not have an objective basis for morality. No atheist has ever put forth a valid argument for the existence of objective morality in a godless world. This is one of the biggest problems with atheism.





That's your opinion, not the truth. And btw, it's an opinion held by people like Ted Bundy. (I could provide a quote, if you don't believe me.)





That is not a Christian's reason for being moral. Like Blues Man, you are trying to speak for believers, as an atheist. Let believers speak for themselves.




You have it backwards. "Might makes right" is a consequence of moral relativism which goes hand in hand with atheism.... it's not a consequence of faith in God. Look back at history at the hundreds of millions of people who were killed by Communist dictators, who believed that they were the highest power, and not accountable to anyone. "Might makes right" sure seemed to be their motto.

That is not an objective basis for morality.

Much more objective, practical, and moral than your morality, that's for sure.


Anything that comes from the human mind is subjective. So atheism does not have an objective basis for morality.

And neither do you. I didn't say an atheist or secular morality isn't based on human sentiment or opinion, what I did say is that your morality is just as subjective as mine.

No atheist has ever put forth a valid argument for the existence of objective morality in a godless world. This is one of the biggest problems with atheism.

Your religious morality is no more objective than mine.


That's your opinion, not the truth. And btw, it's an opinion held by people like Ted Bundy. (I could provide a quote, if you don't believe me.)


I don't care who holds my opinion, my concern is whether the opinion is true or at least reasonable.


That is not a Christian's reason for being moral. Like Blues Man, you are trying to speak for believers, as an atheist. Let believers speak for themselves.

Yeah sure, whatever.

You have it backwards. "Might makes right" is a consequence of moral relativism which goes hand in hand with atheism.... it's not a consequence of faith in God. Look back at history at the hundreds of millions of people who were killed by Communist dictators, who believed that they were the highest power, and not accountable to anyone. "Might makes right" sure seemed to be their motto.

You believe in might makes right, because whatever you believe your version of Almighty God considers moral, it's moral and you don't question it. He can torture people in hell for all eternity for not converting to the right brand of Christianity, even your family members, and you're fine with it.

There's no evidence Stalin killed even 1/10th the figure you cited. You're just regurgitating old Capitalist Cold War propaganda.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I didn't make a statement against organized religion in general. But in my view (as someone who grew up going to Catholic church, which caused me to become a nonbeliever for many years) the Catholic church has always been a counterfeit Christianity... a mixture of paganism and Christianity

You get it. At least on this topic