Zone1 Atheism Has No Basis for the Idea of Good or Evil, Just or Unjust

[Blues Man]

Unlike the Atheists and anti-Christian faith, you seem to assume we Christians are unable to think critically about much of anything. While some are more Bible literalist/fundamentalist than others--I agree even the most literalist ignore most of the rules of the Old Testament, most of which were rescinded in the New Testament. Most Christians, however, and probably most Jews believe their sense of good and evil, right and wrong, just and unjust comes from God. Civilizations that did not know or recognize the JudeoChristian God were/are far more savage, brutal, lacking in fair play and true justice than the societies that have evolved over time from JudeoChristian faith.

Either the morals of the god in your bible are perfect and don't need to be changed or they are not.
Either your god is the arbiter of what is moral or its not.

And since you have decided to follow a moral code that you think is better than your god's in certain ways then you have chosen secular human morality over that of your god in those instances.

Your own morals are better than your god's morals.

That is not an insult

 

[buttercup]

YOU believe it to be true. That's the point.

You don't care if the god you worship is a psycho

^ Still trying to speak for believers, as a nonbeliever, and still misrepresenting the beliefs of others... which is incredibly arrogant, as you've been told repeatedly. No Christian believes that God "murders" anyone. That statement is as ignorant as it gets.

What you clearly do not understand at all is that God - as the author of life itself - is the ONLY one who has the authority to take life, as He sees fit.

It is beyond absurd (it is completely asinine) to act as if The Creator has the same level of authority, knowledge and wisdom as some regular Joe Schmo.

 

[Blues Man]

^ Still trying to speak for believers, as a nonbeliever, and still misrepresenting the beliefs of others... which is incredibly arrogant, as you've been told repeatedly. No Christian believes that God "murders" anyone. That statement is as ignorant as it gets.

What you clearly do not understand at all is that God - as the author of life itself - is the ONLY one who has the authority to take life, as He sees fit.

It is beyond absurd (it is completely asinine) to act as if the Creator has the same authority, knowledge and wisdom as some regular Joe Schmo.

No I am speaking of the Donkey.

Here's a hint if I am not talking directly to you I am not talking about you.

And no I don't buy into that god as creator meme.

You know that yet you get upset when I take that stance.

I'll bet you too have adopted secular humanism in many of your own moral stances because you know those stances are better than the ones of the god in your bible.

 

[buttercup]

No I am speaking of the Donkey.

Here's a hint if I am not talking directly to you I am not talking about you.

And no I don't buy into that god as creator meme.

You know that yet you get upset when I take that stance.

I'll bet you too have adopted secular humanism in many of your own moral stances because you know those stances are better than the ones of the god in your bible.

It doesn't matter if you don't believe that God is the Creator. You still constantly misrepresent the beliefs of others. If you're going to make statements about Christian beliefs, at least get them right. We're always correcting you, and you just dismiss that and continue to try to speak for believers.

As for the second thing you said, no, I have been on both sides, and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God's moral truths and principles (which are timeless and eternal) are infinitely better than the twisted corrupt ways of this world.

As someone else correctly stated to you the other day (I don't remember who it was) you have only been on one side, so your view is limited to only your limited experience.

 

[Blues Man]

It doesn't matter if you don't believe that God is the Creator. You still constantly misrepresent the beliefs of others. If you're going to make statements about Christian beliefs, at least get them right. We're always correcting you, and you just dismiss that and continue to try to speak for believers.

As for the second thing you said, no, I have been on both sides, and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God's moral principles (which are timeless and eternal) are infinitely better than the twisted corrupt ways of this world.

As someone else correctly stated to you the other day (I don't remember who it was) you have only been on one side, so your view is limited to only your limited experience.

No I state them as I see them.

And I am on no one's side. Do you really think I have has absolutely no experience with religion? Isn't that you telling me what I have experienced? Isn't that you misrepresenting my experiences?

My attitude on gods stems from my experiences with organized religion not the other way around.

And are you telling me you really think that a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night should be stoned to death? That is the morality of the bible.

The fact that we do not do that is the result of a secular humanist view

 

[buttercup]

No I state them as I see them.

And I am on no one's side. Do you really think I have has absolutely no experience with religion? Isn't that you telling me what I have experienced? Isn't that you misrepresenting my experiences?

And are you telling me you really think that a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night should be stoned to death? That is the morality of the bible.

The fact that we do not do that is the result of a secular humanist view

You're not getting what I'm saying. There's a HUGE difference between mere "religion" (for example, being dragged to church as a child, or even growing up in a religious home) and spiritual birth... becoming a true child of God, a new creation, literally. The latter is what I was talking about when I said you haven't been on both sides.

I don't have a lot of time right now because it's super late here and I'm about to sign off, but if you're bringing up temporal Old Testament laws (that were only for a specific time / place and people group) as an example of true morality, you are showing your total lack of understanding. I'll let someone else explain it to you, because it's almost 2:30 in the morning here and this is not the right time to get into lengthy discussions on complex topics.

 

[Blues Man]

You're not getting what I'm saying. There's a HUGE difference between mere "religion" (for example, being dragged to church as a child, or even growing up in a religious home) and spiritual birth... becoming a true child of God, a new creation, literally. The latter is what I was talking about when I said you haven't been on both sides.

I don't have a lot of time right now because it's super late here and I'm about to sign off, but if you're bringing up temporal Old Testament laws as an example of true morality, you are showing your total lack of understanding. I'll let someone else explain it to you, because it's almost 2:30 in the morning here and this is not the right time to get into lengthy discussions on complex topics.

No gods are needed to experience a spiritual awakening or enlightenment. The Buddha proved that. I know that because it has been my experience. Are you telling me that I have had no such experience because I don't share your belief in a god?

And look either the bible is the word of your god or it isn't. Either the bible is the moral law of your god or it isn't.

You can't have it both ways. Maybe the bible should be edited and/or rewritten.

 

[Blues Man]

It's a funny thing to me that people don't realize that it was when the church fell out of favor after the Black plague swept through Europe and the Catholic Church became increasingly corrupt and venal that the Renaissance occurred. This was because of the rise of secular education and people investing in their own intellectual pursuits rather than allowing the church to dictate educational curricula.

The greatest advances in all aspects of human life came not from religion but from the people themselves and when religion could no longer usurp the credit for these things what did we get?

We got the inquisition, we got "heretics" being burned alive, we got religion standing in the way of science and threatening great thinkers.

Face it people. We are the society we are because of secular humanism not in spite of it.

 

[buttercup]

No gods are needed to a spiritual revelation. I know that because it has been my experience. Are you telling me that I have had no such experience because I don't share your belief in a god?

And look either the bible is the word of your god or it isn't. Either the bible is the moral laws of your god or it isn't.

You can't have it both ways.

What kind of "spiritual revelation" are you talking about?

Yes, one can have a spiritual "revelation" apart from God... but there are only two basic types of spirits in this world: ones that are of God, and ones that are not. People who say they had a "spiritual revelation" while on Ayahuasca or whatever don't realize that their spiritual experience was the kind that one should stay far, far, far away from. Because there IS a spiritual realm that is not of God, but forces of darkness that are in opposition to God.

As for the second thing you said, you just don't get it. Yes, of course the Bible is the word of God, but the Bible also talks about history, including things that happened in the past that applied only to a specific group of people, at that specific time.

There are covenants in the Bible. Some covenants are temporal, some are eternal. The ones that you and other nonbelievers always like to point to are the former.

If you want to know true morality that is rooted in the very nature and character of God, you can look at the Fruit of the Spirit:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Galatians 5:22-23

 

[buttercup]

It's a funny thing to me that people don't realize that it was when the church fell out of favor after the Black plague swept through Europe and the Catholic Church became increasingly corrupt and venal that the Renaissance occurred. This was because of the rise of secular education and people investing in their own intellectual pursuits rather than allowing the church to dictate educational curricula.

The greatest advances in all aspects of human life came not from religion but from the people themselves and when religion could no longer usurp the credit for these things what did we get?

We got the inquisition, we got "heretics" being burned alive, we got religion standing in the way of science and threatening great thinkers.

Face it people. We are the society we are because of secular humanism not in spite of it.

^ Once again, you're talking about mere religion, as opposed to true Christianity, which is a relationship with the living God of the universe, and being born again, or born from above.

 

[Blues Man]

What kind of "spiritual revelation" are you talking about?

Yes, one can have a spiritual "revelation" apart from God..... but there are only two basic types of spirits in this world: ones that are of God, and ones that are not. People who say they had a "spiritual revelation" while on Ayahuasca or whatever don't realize that their spiritual experience was the kind that one should stay far, far, far away from. Because there IS a spiritual realm that is not of God, but forces of darkness that are in opposition to God.

As for the second thing you said, you just don't get it. Yes, of course the Bible is the word of God, but the Bible also talks about history, including things that happened in the past that applied only to a specific group of people, at that specific time.

There are covenants in the Bible. Some covenants are temporal, some are eternal. The ones that you and other nonbelievers always like to point to are the former.

If you want to know true morality that is rooted in the very nature and character of God, you can look at the Fruit of the Spirit:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Galatians 5:22-23

Call it an experience of cosmic consciousness if you have to call it anything. The Buddha called it enlightenment.

No drugs needed.

Ands we are going to disagree about the nature of your god. Certainly no bible verse will ever be objective about the god it has been written to promote.

Using the bible for proof of god IMO is no different than using the Lord of the Rings saga to prove the existence of orcs, goblins, elves, dwarves and magic rings.

 

[Blues Man]

^ Once again, you're talking about mere religion, as opposed to true Christianity, which is a relationship with the living God of the universe, and being born again, or born from above.

So organized religion and specifically the organized religion that claimed itself the authority of Jesus' word is not a "true" Christian religion now?

 

[buttercup]

So organized religion and specifically the organized religion that claimed itself the authority of Jesus' word is not a "true" Christian religion now?

I didn't make a statement against organized religion in general. But in my view (as someone who grew up going to Catholic church, which caused me to become a nonbeliever for many years) the Catholic church has always been a counterfeit Christianity... a mixture of paganism and Christianity.

I probably offended half the people in this section with that comment.... and I don't like to do that, but I also have to be honest and straightforward.

And please don't try to get me to continue this discussion right now, because it's almost 3 AM here and this time I really am signing off. If I have time tomorrow I'll try to get back to this.

 

[Blues Man]

I didn't make a statement against organized religion in general. But in my view (as someone who grew up going to Catholic church, which caused me to become a nonbeliever for many years) the Catholic church has always been a counterfeit Christianity... a mixture of paganism and Christianity.

I probably offended half the people in this section with that comment.... and I don't like to do that, but I also have to be honest and straightforward.

And please don't try to get me to continue this discussion right now, because it's almost 3 AM here and this time I really am signing off. If I have time tomorrow I'll try to get back to this.

OK Good night.

 

[buttercup]

Call it an experience of cosmic consciousness if you have to call it anything. The Buddha called it enlightenment.

No drugs needed.

Ands we are going to disagree about the nature of your god. Certainly no bible verse will ever be objective about the god it has been written to promote.

Using the bible for proof of god IMO is no different than using the Lord of the Rings saga to prove the existence of orcs, goblins, elves, dwarves and magic rings.

The Bible isn't the only proof. I have experienced God in my life, so I know from firsthand experience that God is good, and that Fruit of the Spirit passage is absolutely true.

Psalm 34:8 says "taste and see that the Lord is good" and that verse is also very, very true.

 

[ding]

And you illogically apply that to ALL people who don't believe in your god.

No, I didn't. Which is why you haven't used the quote feature to back up your silly accusation.

 

[Red Front]

CS Lewis on his conversion to Christianity. He says in Mere Christianity:

But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea
of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was
bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself
in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water
animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was
nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too—
for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen
to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist—in other words,
that the whole of reality was senseless—I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality—namely my
idea of justice—was full of sense.​

That's false. An atheist who holds life sacred (values and cherishes life) can infer from experience what are the patterns of thought and behavior that are conducive for life and those that aren't. All patterns of thought and behavior that contribute to the survival and flourishing of life, can be the atheist's basis for morality. At the end of the day, all human morality is established by human beings through faith or a subjective framework of beliefs and values. You can pretend you got your morals from the heavens but that's just the way you feel, your beliefs, "faith", not an objective fact that can be proven scientifically or empirically.

A person who sees life itself, especially human life as having intrinsic value, then goes on to establish a system of ethics based upon that conviction that life is of the highest value, holds to a superior, more constructive, life-affirming system of morality than a Christian whose only reason for being good is a heavenly reward of eternal life in celestial, divine opulence or the fear of going to hell.

A Christian whose only reason for being moral, is because a powerful, mighty deity is going to grant him the privilege of living forever in an eternal beach resort or is threatening to torture him, doesn't have a superior morality, because of that. It's the opposite, he doesn't have a better set of morals due to his religious beliefs, when those morals are based on heavenly rewards or threats of being tortured in hell.

A truly moral atheist who is good due to his love and reverence for life itself, seeing infinite value in life, possesses a superior, more impressive, and life-supporting moral foundation, than a Christian who hardly ever takes responsibility for his bad behavior, shifting the blame on the devil or placing his or her sins on an innocent person hanging on a cross.

How is Christian morality, which in many ways is a "might makes right" morality based upon an almighty deity that "said it, hence it's so", superior to a morality that is well reasoned, thought-out, discussed, debated, and only accepted on its own merits when proven to improve people's lives?

Your religious morality is a blind, bullied, unquestionable, irrational, absolutist morality, based on the pipe dream of living forever in heaven or your fear of being tortured in hell for all eternity. How is that a superior form of ethics to an atheist one based on love and reverence for humanity and life in general?

As an agnostic my morality has to be life-serving and empowering, it must prioritize the survival and success of life, especially human life. Why do I value life, especially human life? I'm a human being who is alive and I love life, I want to live and not die anytime soon (Let the magots go hungry).

The foundation of my morality begins with my love and respect for my own life, and my desire for being well and successful, hence from there I can develop empathy for and respect, even love the lives of others. The world doesn't revolve around me, there is something bigger than me, like humanity as a whole and its future survival and success. I love my family and friends, I love my community and my country. I love, and that is what my morality is based upon, not a promise of eternal life in heavenly luxury or a deity threatening me with hell.

How can I love a god that eternally tortures human beings in hell forever, because they didn't convert to the correct brand of Christianity? How can any moral person serve such a deity? How can anyone enjoy heaven, knowing that their parents, spouse, children, and friends are being tortured by god in hell? That's not a god of love and justice, but a sadistic, evil god, who lacks creativity, love, and power. Can't he figure out a better way of reforming humanity? Why do human beings have to figure everything out in one lifetime? That's nonsense and immoral. Your version of God isn't God, it's Satan. The devil. I don't reject God, I reject your crappy definition of Him. Your concept of God is flawed.

 

[ding]

All religions teach civility, morality and virtue but, at least for Judaism and Christianity (the 2 I know best), they have tended to change with the changing morals of society as they evolve.

Truth is arrived at through a conflict and confusion process. First, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; and third, it is accepted as self-evident. And just because truth is discovered, that doesn't mean it can't be lost again. But eventually error will fail as error is wont to do.

 

[ding]

YOU believe it to be true. That's the point.

You don't care if the god you worship is a psycho

No, that's not what I believe. I don't interpret bible passages like the Westboro Baptists.

 

[Red Front]

Atheism has a basis for good and evil.

Mao, Stalin, Manson, Pol Pot all had basis for good and evil.

That's a retarded statement. You have Vlad the Impaler, Bin Laden, Genghis Khan, and other infamous religious folks as the basis of your morality. A deity that tortures people in hell for all eternity, for not converting to the right type of Christianity is your foundation of morality. A might makes right "morality", which is irrational and just plain stupid, that's the foundation of your "morality". Every statement that is defecated from your keyboard is poopoo and asinine. Dumb.