Atheists are the moral ones

[Steinlight]

There are communities that have different definitions of torture and where torture is permitted, and not thought immoral.

So is torture thought immoral in the US?

Thus, to say torture is objectively immoral is categorically false from a purely secular perspective.

Pure puffery. Morality has already been defined as community norms.

You contend it is immoral, another person disagrees on you with what torture is, and some would contend the torture you think is immoral isn't immoral. Thus you one preference of many.

I contend torture is not a community norm in the US, therefore immoral in the US. Do you contend torture is a community norm in the US, therefore moral in the US?

I contend that absent an objective deity, there exists no objective morality. And you prove my point, by admitting to my prior point, that definitions of torture vary from society to society, and what may be considered immoral among some in the US might not be elsewhere.

Furthermore, I probably have a different definition of torture than you.

Your issue is glazing over the term 'objective morality.' The fact is that you are correct in the core of your statement: objective morality DOES NOT EXIST. The problem is that you are taking that much further than that single statement. The following DOES NOT follow from that statement:

That isn't an argument. And you conceding that norms vary from community to community proves my point. Absent a universal and eternal arbiter of justice, there is no right or wrong, no good or evil, and all is permitted.

There is good and bad, right and wrong and it is defined by society. Those that have a rather shitty form of morality die off and those that don't tend to not only live on but also affect the morality and ethics of societies that follow. That is why our morality has, overall, improved over the centuries.

Objective morality would essentially call 99.9 percent of everyone that has ever lived evil bastards. The ONLY people that could be defined as somewhat moralistic would be those that lived in the last century or so. Are you really that arrogant to believe all people before us were truly evil? After all, even in this nation, slavery was permissible. Torture has been a societal norm - not immoral at all - for almost the entirety of human history. It was sanctioned by the very source of your 'objective morality' several times through burning people at the stake and on massive scales like the French Inquisition. The atrocities that man has inflicted upon one another throughout history have been legion. I do not think that is because the majority of people were evil or immoral - it was because society had not evolved to the point it has today.

And here is the kicker - unless you think that the people today are somehow special and different than ALL the societies that have already fallen - WE will be viewed as a rather immoral and backward society in the future. We will be viewed as doing truly evil to one another.

Your problem is you view society as a monolith, and ironically, your western morality is informed by judeo-christian ethics. So ironically, you ignore the basis for much of your own morality, and then appropriate it to other societies, assuming they just agree with your coddled liberal view and that it is for certain right just because of "reason and logic" or something. The problem is, your world view is obsolete in the face of an objective world view, you just view morality as a preference for your society. You talk about dying views. It is secular societies that are dying off. It is religious societies that are growing.

It is ironic you bring up slavery as though it's existence somehow discredits the foundation of Christian moral teachings or something. The Abolition Movement was inspired by Christians, particularly British Quakers, such as William Wilberforce.

Ironically, we as Whites and Christians are condemned for chattel slavery, as though it is exclusive to us and a blight on our civilization. When in fact, it was White Christians that gave birth to the abolition and fought for abolition throughout the world(ie. the British Empire's fight against the slave trade on the west and east coast of Africa).

?
This entire response is filled with a horde of straw men.

Where did I deny that my current western culture was based on Christian morals? How did I ignore that reality? Then you called me a liberal (that is rather funny). Then you ramble on about slavery when not addressing anything I pointed out with it.

Then you claim secular societies are dying off. That is an interesting claim without an ounce of fact to back it up. no, secular societies are not dying off at all - they are and wioll continue to be on the rise. That is not to state religion is going anywhere. It is not BUT the most sucsessful and powerful societies that exist today have recognized the corrupting influence the government has on religion and have, rightfully, seperated the two. The United States that you like to point out as based on Christian morality (which is true) is such a society.

So you don't deny that Western Morality is based on Christianity? Ok good, than you agree with me. You claimed that society defines right and wrong, which is a fundamentally narrow and blinded viewpoint. Rather, it is Christian ethics that have informed Western Society on what is right and wrong.

You are the one who claimed the existence of slavery discredits objective christian morality, when it was in fact objective christian ethics that built the foundation for the Abolition Movement. You are the one not addressing arguments, not me

Also, the idea, moral people existed only from the 20th or late 19th Century onward, is just wrong. This point isn't even debatable, history is riddles with men and women of great character. Just open in book. In fact, more in the past than now, society in the West is in decline because we have fallen into secular relativism and lack strong moral foundation and moral leadership. If you think the West is on the rise, you obviously haven't looked at economic and demographic trends. Birthrates are down throughout the West, birthrates are up in the Muslim World, the Asian economies are on the rise along with their demographics, China is now outpacing the US as the largest economy, and the EU is in a sovereign debt and economic crisis. The West is in a economic, demographic, and moral crisis in part due to secularization and the consequential loss of identity and moral foundation.

I am glad you can laugh at what you are, whether you know it or not, you are a liberal.

 

[Steinlight]

The Left's political position here doesn't represent America's moral conscience, in fact, most Americans support enhanced interrogation

Jesus loves him some waterboarding. When it is commonplace we can say most Americans support waterboarding. At the momment all that is demonstrated is most Americans are not very moral.

Than morality isn't based on community norms like you previously claimed, it is based on your particular preferences.

 

[asaratis]

What is a community norm?

I guess a norm is where behaviour is commonplace.

If a community supports 'torture', does 'torture' become a community norm?

When torture is commonplace.

It seems to me the OP is self-defeating. The poll "community" consists of "Americans". The bar graphs clearly indicate that the majority of the community supports 'torture'.

Taken out of context, the support of 'torture' is understandably reprehensible. To 'torture' someone for pleasure is immoral. To 'torture' a sworn enemy of the community in an effort to obtain information that could save the lives of community members is not only moral but essential to the survival of the community.

Torture is done both for pleasure and to extract confessions. It is effective in those areas. When it becomes commonplace it will be a community norm.

You talk in circles.

The 'torture' of GITMO detainees in the war against radical Islam was not performed by "the community". Torture is not commonplace throughout the community.

 

[Kondor3]

Without religion there would be no long-standing and widely-held standards of ethical behavior, communicated from one generation to the next.

Assertion is easy.

Indeed, it is.

And isn't it great, when the stars align, such as now, for scenarios in which The Easy also turns out to be The Truth?

The history of Mankind to date stands witness for the efficacy of the position.

 

[cnm]

Than morality isn't based on community norms like you previously claimed, it is based on your particular preferences.

Your anyalysis is false. At the present time Americans who support torture are immoral.

 

[cnm]

Indeed, it is.

And isn't it great, when the stars align, such as now, for scenarios in which The Easy also turns out to be The Truth?

The history of Mankind to date stands witness for the efficacy of the position.

Assertion is easy.

 

[Steinlight]

Than morality isn't based on community norms like you previously claimed, it is based on your particular preferences.

Your anyalysis is false. At the present time Americans who support torture are immoral.

"torture" according to you.

Not according to your standard of community norms. Unless you are abandoning that position.

 

[cnm]

And seeing the majority of Americans who support torture at the present - which is not commonplace - are Christian, the position that Atheists are more moral - abiding by community norms - seems to be proven.

 

[cnm]

"torture" according to you.

Not according to your standard of community norms. Unless you are abandoning that position.

Torture according to the POTUS. And such treatment is not commonplace, therefore it is not yet a community norm.

 

[Steinlight]

"torture" according to you.

Not according to your standard of community norms. Unless you are abandoning that position.

Torture according to the POTUS.

So now you contend morality is set by the President, not by community norms?

 

[HUGGY]

Oh yeah, you're real moral, aren't you? Your morality shines through as you're butchering babies.

I have butchered no babies. Your accusation is rediculous.

If you want to make moral accusations that are directly related to a religious affiliation let's consider the raping of thousands of children by Catholic priests and religious leaders of many types...Mormans..the guy in Texas that died in the fire....Koresh was his name..along with his cult that supported rape of children. I have raped no children either.

 

[cnm]

So now you contend morality is set by the President, not by community norms?

You're the one telling that story, I don't believe I've said that. In any case, if torture is not commonplace it is not a community norm. As far as I know, cases of waterboarding under colour of law in the US have been prosecuted.

 

[S.J.]

Oh yeah, you're real moral, aren't you? Your morality shines through as you're butchering babies.

I have butchered no babies. Your accusation is rediculous.

If you want to make moral accusations that are directly related to a religious affiliation let's consider the raping of thousands of children by Catholic priests and religious leaders of many types...Mormans..the guy in Texas that died in the fire....Koresh was his name..along with his cult that supported rape of children. I have raped no children either.

You're a liberal, aren't you? You support abortion, don't you? Then you're just as guilty as the butchers who perform them. Deal with it.

BTW, No one ever established that Koresh raped any children, that was Janet Reno's excuse for killing all of them, including the children.

 

[HUGGY]

Oh yeah, you're real moral, aren't you? Your morality shines through as you're butchering babies.

I have butchered no babies. Your accusation is rediculous.

If you want to make moral accusations that are directly related to a religious affiliation let's consider the raping of thousands of children by Catholic priests and religious leaders of many types...Mormans..the guy in Texas that died in the fire....Koresh was his name..along with his cult that supported rape of children. I have raped no children either.

You're a liberal, aren't you? You support abortion, don't you? Then you're just as guilty as the butchers who perform them. Deal with it.

BTW, No one ever established that Koresh raped any children, that was Janet Reno's excuse for killing all of them, including the children.

"You're a liberal, aren't you? You support abortion, don't you? "

No.

 

[Steinlight]

So now you contend morality is set by the President, not by community norms?

You're the one telling that story, I don't believe I've said that. In any case, if torture is not commonplace it is not a community norm. As far as I know, cases of waterboarding under colour of law in the US have been prosecuted.

You are the one who cited the president as a moral authority, saying he called enhanced interrogation torture, and this somehow validates the claim that enhanced interrogation is torture and is immoral.

Just because something isn't regularly practiced , doesn't mean it isn't accepted by the community. The majority of the community support the idea of the right to self defense, but most individuals don't encounter a position where they have to defend themselves. It doesn't mean that self defense is recognized as moral and legitimate.The majority of Americans support waterboarding, and thus by your community norms standard, the practice is moral.

Those cases mean nothing without context. Can you cite a case where a US Court has banned the use of waterboarding for US Military or Intelligence Officials or prosecuted and convicted them?

 

[HUGGY]

So now you contend morality is set by the President, not by community norms?

You're the one telling that story, I don't believe I've said that. In any case, if torture is not commonplace it is not a community norm. As far as I know, cases of waterboarding under colour of law in the US have been prosecuted.

You are the one who cited the president as a moral authority, saying he called enhanced interrogation torture, and this somehow validates the claim that enhanced interrogation is torture and is immoral.

Just because something isn't regularly practiced , doesn't mean it isn't accepted by the community. The majority of the community support the idea of the right to self defense, but most individuals don't encounter a position where they have to defend themselves. It doesn't mean that self defense is recognized as moral and legitimate.The majority of Americans support waterboarding, and thus by your community norms standard, the practice is moral.

Those cases mean nothing without context. Can you cite a case where a US Court has banned the use of waterboarding for US Military or Intelligence Officials or prosecuted and convicted them?

Where do you people come from?

I said no such thing.

You don't even know me or have had and such discussion with me on this or any forum.

Go back under the rock you slithered from.

 

[S.J.]

Oh yeah, you're real moral, aren't you? Your morality shines through as you're butchering babies.

I have butchered no babies. Your accusation is rediculous.

If you want to make moral accusations that are directly related to a religious affiliation let's consider the raping of thousands of children by Catholic priests and religious leaders of many types...Mormans..the guy in Texas that died in the fire....Koresh was his name..along with his cult that supported rape of children. I have raped no children either.

You're a liberal, aren't you? You support abortion, don't you? Then you're just as guilty as the butchers who perform them. Deal with it.

BTW, No one ever established that Koresh raped any children, that was Janet Reno's excuse for killing all of them, including the children.

"You're a liberal, aren't you? You support abortion, don't you? "

No.

"No", what? You're not a liberal or you don't support abortion?

 

[Steinlight]

So now you contend morality is set by the President, not by community norms?

You're the one telling that story, I don't believe I've said that. In any case, if torture is not commonplace it is not a community norm. As far as I know, cases of waterboarding under colour of law in the US have been prosecuted.

You are the one who cited the president as a moral authority, saying he called enhanced interrogation torture, and this somehow validates the claim that enhanced interrogation is torture and is immoral.

Just because something isn't regularly practiced , doesn't mean it isn't accepted by the community. The majority of the community support the idea of the right to self defense, but most individuals don't encounter a position where they have to defend themselves. It doesn't mean that self defense is recognized as moral and legitimate.The majority of Americans support waterboarding, and thus by your community norms standard, the practice is moral.

Those cases mean nothing without context. Can you cite a case where a US Court has banned the use of waterboarding for US Military or Intelligence Officials or prosecuted and convicted them?

Where do you people come from?

I said no such thing.

You don't even know me or have had and such discussion with me on this or any forum.

Go back under the rock you slithered from.

Change accounts before you respond.

 

[HUGGY]

So now you contend morality is set by the President, not by community norms?

You're the one telling that story, I don't believe I've said that. In any case, if torture is not commonplace it is not a community norm. As far as I know, cases of waterboarding under colour of law in the US have been prosecuted.

You are the one who cited the president as a moral authority, saying he called enhanced interrogation torture, and this somehow validates the claim that enhanced interrogation is torture and is immoral.

Just because something isn't regularly practiced , doesn't mean it isn't accepted by the community. The majority of the community support the idea of the right to self defense, but most individuals don't encounter a position where they have to defend themselves. It doesn't mean that self defense is recognized as moral and legitimate.The majority of Americans support waterboarding, and thus by your community norms standard, the practice is moral.

Those cases mean nothing without context. Can you cite a case where a US Court has banned the use of waterboarding for US Military or Intelligence Officials or prosecuted and convicted them?

Where do you people come from?

I said no such thing.

You don't even know me or have had and such discussion with me on this or any forum.

Go back under the rock you slithered from.

Change accounts before you respond.

You need mental health attention..seriously.

I have had ONLY ONE account at ONLY ONE political MB for several years...the join date is clearly posted idgit. Before I was on this MB I was on another forum for several more years under the Name Sean Corey which remarkably enough is my name.

Your accusations are wackadoodle ramblings of someone in dire need of mental health attention...seriously.

 

[HUGGY]

Oh yeah, you're real moral, aren't you? Your morality shines through as you're butchering babies.

I have butchered no babies. Your accusation is rediculous.

If you want to make moral accusations that are directly related to a religious affiliation let's consider the raping of thousands of children by Catholic priests and religious leaders of many types...Mormans..the guy in Texas that died in the fire....Koresh was his name..along with his cult that supported rape of children. I have raped no children either.

You're a liberal, aren't you? You support abortion, don't you? Then you're just as guilty as the butchers who perform them. Deal with it.

BTW, No one ever established that Koresh raped any children, that was Janet Reno's excuse for killing all of them, including the children.

"You're a liberal, aren't you? You support abortion, don't you? "

No.

"No", what? You're not a liberal or you don't support abortion?

No to both.