Ban or Censor Video Games, Not Guns?

[Koios]

I remain unconvinced and think it warrants a closer look.

Nobody knows more about mass murder and serial killings in the U.S. than James Alan Cox and Jack Levin at Northeastern University. Using FBI NIBRS police incident report data, they've compile a database of serial killings and mass murders that date back to 1980. The database includes suspect demographics and possible motives in the killings from investigative notes. They segregated out the data that you're describing and examined these instances in depth.

Based on that database, mass murders have not increased since 1980.

No increase in mass shootings - James Alan Fox - Crime & Punishment blog - Boston.com

You've been given adequate opportunities to examine the data for yourself, and you choose to ignore it in favor of your paradigms.

Clearly, you would rather believe what you want to believe than objectively examine the evidence.

Prayjesus it is not you discussing guns in a thread NOT about guns, despite guns being in the title, authored by you.

Yeah?

 

[JustTheFacts]

I remain unconvinced and think it warrants a closer look.

Nobody knows more about mass murder and serial killings in the U.S. than James Alan Cox and Jack Levin at Northeastern University. Using FBI NIBRS police incident report data, they've compile a database of serial killings and mass murders that date back to 1980. The database includes suspect demographics and possible motives in the killings from investigative notes. They segregated out the data that you're describing and examined these instances in depth.

Based on that database, mass murders have not increased since 1980.

No increase in mass shootings - James Alan Fox - Crime & Punishment blog - Boston.com

You've been given adequate opportunities to examine the data for yourself, and you choose to ignore it in favor of your paradigms.

Clearly, you would rather believe what you want to believe than objectively examine the evidence.

Prayjesus it is not you discussing guns in a thread NOT about guns, despite guns being in the title, authored by you.

Yeah?

CatzMeow didn't author this thread, maybe you just quoted the wrong person.

 

[Koios]

Nobody knows more about mass murder and serial killings in the U.S. than James Alan Cox and Jack Levin at Northeastern University. Using FBI NIBRS police incident report data, they've compile a database of serial killings and mass murders that date back to 1980. The database includes suspect demographics and possible motives in the killings from investigative notes. They segregated out the data that you're describing and examined these instances in depth.

Based on that database, mass murders have not increased since 1980.

No increase in mass shootings - James Alan Fox - Crime & Punishment blog - Boston.com

You've been given adequate opportunities to examine the data for yourself, and you choose to ignore it in favor of your paradigms.

Clearly, you would rather believe what you want to believe than objectively examine the evidence.

Prayjesus it is not you discussing guns in a thread NOT about guns, despite guns being in the title, authored by you.

Yeah?

CatzMeow didn't author this thread, maybe you just quoted the wrong person.

Oops. My bad. I'd intended to respond to post #339

Thanks for catching my mistake.

 

[Foxfyre]

I did author the thread and the thread title ends with a question mark. It was not intended to be a proclamation, people, but a question inviting discussion. And I specifically put it in the CDZ to invite a civil discussion by civil people who are as interested in exploring the topic as I as.

Guns are mentioned because the initial knee jerk response to one of these terrible events is almost always more gun control. But when I started running across articles speculating that the media violence and video games should be looked at, I found that interesting and wished to explore it more.

So I honestly don't CARE how many mass murders have occurred over recorded history as relevant to this topic . My perception remains that these senseless mass murders of innocents-- those that have no apparent motive--have escalated in recent decades. So far I have seen no statistics to dispute my perception. But my perception has been wrong on other things in the past, and I'm perfectly happy for it to be wrong on this.

But I still want to know whether the media violence and violent video games is having an adverse affect on children and are in any way contributing to these events. And if it is, I do think we need to address that. And no, I am not making any proclamation yet about what should be done about it.

 

[Ravi]

I remain unconvinced and think it warrants a closer look.

Nobody knows more about mass murder and serial killings in the U.S. than James Alan Cox and Jack Levin at Northeastern University. Using FBI NIBRS police incident report data, they've compile a database of serial killings and mass murders that date back to 1980. The database includes suspect demographics and possible motives in the killings from investigative notes. They segregated out the data that you're describing and examined these instances in depth.

Based on that database, mass murders have not increased since 1980.

No increase in mass shootings - James Alan Fox - Crime & Punishment blog - Boston.com

You've been given adequate opportunities to examine the data for yourself, and you choose to ignore it in favor of your paradigms.

Clearly, you would rather believe what you want to believe than objectively examine the evidence.

I have no paradigms Catz. I respectfully request that you acknowledge that I have said that. I do have perceptions, and if they are wrong I am perfectly willing to accept that.

Show me in that graph, which has also been posted again and again and again on message boards and in various articles on this subject, that it reflects only those senseless murders with no apparent motive. Or does it include organized crime activity, gang activity, drug activity, work place violence? I have asked that question several times now and asked you to address it. Will you?

Generally, mass murder was described as a number of murders (four or more) occurring during the same incident, with no distinctive time period between the murders. These events typically involved a single location, where the killer murdered a number of victims in an ongoing incident (e.g. the 1984 San Ysidro McDonalds incident in San Diego, California; the 1991 Luby’s Restaurant massacre in Killeen, Texas; and the 2007 Virginia Tech murders in Blacksburg, Virginia).

FBI ? Serial Murder

 

[Foxfyre]

Not sure what you are communicating with your post Ravi. I have not at any point suggested there haven't been mass murders. My focus is on those involving innocents for which there is no apparent motive, and the illustrations in your post does nothing to sway my perception that these have been escalating in recent decades.

 

[AmyNation]

I can completely understand the perception that they are. The MSM has really gotten out of hand over the last decade.

 

[catzmeow]

I remain unconvinced and think it warrants a closer look.

Nobody knows more about mass murder and serial killings in the U.S. than James Alan Cox and Jack Levin at Northeastern University. Using FBI NIBRS police incident report data, they've compile a database of serial killings and mass murders that date back to 1980. The database includes suspect demographics and possible motives in the killings from investigative notes. They segregated out the data that you're describing and examined these instances in depth.

Based on that database, mass murders have not increased since 1980.

No increase in mass shootings - James Alan Fox - Crime & Punishment blog - Boston.com

You've been given adequate opportunities to examine the data for yourself, and you choose to ignore it in favor of your paradigms.

Clearly, you would rather believe what you want to believe than objectively examine the evidence.

I have no paradigms Catz. I respectfully request that you acknowledge that I have said that. I do have perceptions, and if they are wrong I am perfectly willing to accept that.

Show me in that graph, which has also been posted again and again and again on message boards and in various articles on this subject, that it reflects only those senseless murders with no apparent motive. Or does it include organized crime activity, gang activity, drug activity, work place violence? I have asked that question several times now and asked you to address it. Will you?

I answered it in the post and provided you with a link to how Fox/Levin categorize mass murders.

Here it is again:

http://www.academia.edu/1199492/Hegemonic_Masculinity_and_Mass_Murderers_in_the_United_States

The information you are looking for is on page 63-64, and begins under the heading "Mass Murder."

Mass murders, as quantified by Fox/Levin, don't include the types of activities that you've asked about. However, workplace violence belongs in the category of mass murder, because it is committed for the same types of reasons as school mass murders.

If you'd read the links that have been provided to you several times in this thread, you would already know the answers to these questions. Besides that, you could have taken the time to google this stuff for yourself in order to answer your own questions, as the rest of us did. Clearly, you know how to use the google function, because when it suits you, you google and post articles that support your own views.

In other words, the answers were here, in the links that were given to you, more than once.

I can give you the links to the relevant articles (and have), but you are responsible for taking the time to read them and inform yourself. This isn't school, and I'm not the teacher.

 

[Katzndogz]

So playing off of the posts from Katzndogz and Fox, should there be an effort to keep the mentally ill away from violent video games?

I like games, I admit that at times it's as much about building the hardware with me as it is about the games themselves. (But I get 230 FPS from BF3 maxed out with 16X AA and 16:1 Anisotropic filtering!)

I play, mostly on weekends for a few hours. But someone who would spend 16 or more hours a day on a game is probably not right in the head. It's an obsession with some.

There should be an effort to stop the mentally ill from anything harmful to them. A man who is mentally ill and believes the dog is telling him to kill people should be kept away from dogs. Did David Berkowitz play video games? No. Should we ban dogs because Berkowitz got messages to kill people from a dog? No. . It might mean actually locking away mentally ill people and keeping them confined. At one time, families locked away the mentally ill family members, they were kept in attics or basements. That's against the law now.

Instead, we are reducing the entirety of the US population to the level of the mentally ill. In order to treat the mentally ill as normal, everyone must be treated as if they are mentally ill. Ban video games.

 

[JustTheFacts]

So playing off of the posts from Katzndogz and Fox, should there be an effort to keep the mentally ill away from violent video games?

I like games, I admit that at times it's as much about building the hardware with me as it is about the games themselves. (But I get 230 FPS from BF3 maxed out with 16X AA and 16:1 Anisotropic filtering!)

I play, mostly on weekends for a few hours. But someone who would spend 16 or more hours a day on a game is probably not right in the head. It's an obsession with some.

There should be an effort to stop the mentally ill from anything harmful to them. A man who is mentally ill and believes the dog is telling him to kill people should be kept away from dogs. Did David Berkowitz play video games? No. Should we ban dogs because Berkowitz got messages to kill people from a dog? No. . It might mean actually locking away mentally ill people and keeping them confined. At one time, families locked away the mentally ill family members, they were kept in attics or basements. That's against the law now.

Instead, we are reducing the entirety of the US population to the level of the mentally ill. In order to treat the mentally ill as normal, everyone must be treated as if they are mentally ill. Ban video games.

if we went around locking retards up, there would be very few free people left in this country. And NO politicians.

I'm for it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Let's look at what we have so far at least as nearly as I can determine:

The issue is mass murders of innocents that have no apparent motive and the people who commit them.

We have more than 3000 studies with plenty of folks commenting on them pro and con. Some support the studies and post them as evidence. Some dispute them and post critics of the studies as evidence.

The pro gun control people seem to want a proliferation of guns to be the primary factor.

The pro 2nd Amendment and gun lobby people deny a proliferation of guns is the primary factor.

Those who deplore excessive and gratuitous violence in movies, on television, and in music and video games are more likely to believe that could be a factor.

Those who enjoy the violence as entertainment themselves are more likely to dismiss that as a factor.

And of course there are those who point to any number of things including parenting, government leadership or the lack thereof, a changing culture, bullying at school, partisan extremism, social extremism, crummy teachers, using behavior altering drugs or illegal drugs, diet, etc. etc. etc. as the underlying cause and just as many who dismiss any and/or all of those and do so with various arguments.

So whether it is those determined to be combative and/or engage in a blame game, or whether it is thoughtful people who are sincerely wanting honest and competent answers, I wonder if we are any closer to identifying a cause, much less identifying a solution, than before?

 

[Ravi]

Not sure what you are communicating with your post Ravi. I have not at any point suggested there haven't been mass murders. My focus is on those involving innocents for which there is no apparent motive, and the illustrations in your post does nothing to sway my perception that these have been escalating in recent decades.

I was giving you the FBI's definition of mass murder. Which put together with links you've been given would lead you to the knowledge that the graphic posted does not include gang related shootings, serial killers, or common murders. It includes MASS MURDERS.

 

[Koios]

I did author the thread and the thread title ends with a question mark. It was not intended to be a proclamation, people, but a question inviting discussion. And I specifically put it in the CDZ to invite a civil discussion by civil people who are as interested in exploring the topic as I as.

Guns are mentioned because the initial knee jerk response to one of these terrible events is almost always more gun control. But when I started running across articles speculating that the media violence and video games should be looked at, I found that interesting and wished to explore it more.

So I honestly don't CARE how many mass murders have occurred over recorded history as relevant to this topic . My perception remains that these senseless mass murders of innocents-- those that have no apparent motive--have escalated in recent decades. So far I have seen no statistics to dispute my perception. But my perception has been wrong on other things in the past, and I'm perfectly happy for it to be wrong on this.

But I still want to know whether the media violence and violent video games is having an adverse affect on children and are in any way contributing to these events. And if it is, I do think we need to address that. And no, I am not making any proclamation yet about what should be done about it.

Gotcha. Good to know. But some food for thought: when querying about guns and such, one or more responses to your QUESTION!!! might likely pertain to guns.

Be so advised.

 

[Ravi]

So playing off of the posts from Katzndogz and Fox, should there be an effort to keep the mentally ill away from violent video games?

I like games, I admit that at times it's as much about building the hardware with me as it is about the games themselves. (But I get 230 FPS from BF3 maxed out with 16X AA and 16:1 Anisotropic filtering!)

I play, mostly on weekends for a few hours. But someone who would spend 16 or more hours a day on a game is probably not right in the head. It's an obsession with some.

There should be an effort to stop the mentally ill from anything harmful to them. A man who is mentally ill and believes the dog is telling him to kill people should be kept away from dogs. Did David Berkowitz play video games? No. Should we ban dogs because Berkowitz got messages to kill people from a dog? No. . It might mean actually locking away mentally ill people and keeping them confined. At one time, families locked away the mentally ill family members, they were kept in attics or basements. That's against the law now.

Instead, we are reducing the entirety of the US population to the level of the mentally ill. In order to treat the mentally ill as normal, everyone must be treated as if they are mentally ill. Ban video games.

Problem being that a casual reading of your posts on this forum would lead many people to believe that you are mentally ill. Does this mean we should lock you away in the attic or insane asylum? I'd have to say yes.

 

[catzmeow]

So whether it is those determined to be combative and/or engage in a blame game, or whether it is thoughtful people who are sincerely wanting honest and competent answers, I wonder if we are any closer to identifying a cause, much less identifying a solution, than before?

Given that the suspects are overwhelmingly white, male, and older than other homicide perpetrators, I think this is an interesting theory:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean-debate-zone/272759-white-male-mass-murderers.html

I posted it above and in a thread called "White Male Mass Murderers."

You should read it.

 

[Ravi]

No apparent motive? There is always a motive. It just isn't always sane.

 

[Foxfyre]

Then pray tell, Ravi. Please give us the motive of the Columbine shooters. The Aurora shooter. The Sandy Hook shooter. And explain why so many learned people with PhDs and psychiatric credentials have not arrived at a motive but rather are proposing possible reasons that go in all directions.

Catz, thank you for the links. But you are right. None address the question I have asked that you answer.

 

[Foxfyre]

I did author the thread and the thread title ends with a question mark. It was not intended to be a proclamation, people, but a question inviting discussion. And I specifically put it in the CDZ to invite a civil discussion by civil people who are as interested in exploring the topic as I as.

Guns are mentioned because the initial knee jerk response to one of these terrible events is almost always more gun control. But when I started running across articles speculating that the media violence and video games should be looked at, I found that interesting and wished to explore it more.

So I honestly don't CARE how many mass murders have occurred over recorded history as relevant to this topic . My perception remains that these senseless mass murders of innocents-- those that have no apparent motive--have escalated in recent decades. So far I have seen no statistics to dispute my perception. But my perception has been wrong on other things in the past, and I'm perfectly happy for it to be wrong on this.

But I still want to know whether the media violence and violent video games is having an adverse affect on children and are in any way contributing to these events. And if it is, I do think we need to address that. And no, I am not making any proclamation yet about what should be done about it.

Gotcha. Good to know. But some food for thought: when querying about guns and such, one or more responses to your QUESTION!!! might likely pertain to guns.

Be so advised.

The punctuation in the thread title would be strongly interpreted by most that this was not another gun thread. It was to offer an alternative to the gun debate related to Sandy Hook et al. and focus on discussion of another issue that has been presented as a possible factor in such killings. And the OP was intended to be very specific about what the topic of this thread is.

 

[JustTheFacts]

No apparent motive? There is always a motive. It just isn't always sane.

I disagree. I think there are in fact just evil people in the world who sometimes do this kinda shit, for NO reason.

I mean I guess you could define their motive as "evil" but that isn't really a motive in and of itself.

Obviously this doesn't apply to all of these guys.

 

[Koios]

I did author the thread and the thread title ends with a question mark. It was not intended to be a proclamation, people, but a question inviting discussion. And I specifically put it in the CDZ to invite a civil discussion by civil people who are as interested in exploring the topic as I as.

Guns are mentioned because the initial knee jerk response to one of these terrible events is almost always more gun control. But when I started running across articles speculating that the media violence and video games should be looked at, I found that interesting and wished to explore it more.

So I honestly don't CARE how many mass murders have occurred over recorded history as relevant to this topic . My perception remains that these senseless mass murders of innocents-- those that have no apparent motive--have escalated in recent decades. So far I have seen no statistics to dispute my perception. But my perception has been wrong on other things in the past, and I'm perfectly happy for it to be wrong on this.

But I still want to know whether the media violence and violent video games is having an adverse affect on children and are in any way contributing to these events. And if it is, I do think we need to address that. And no, I am not making any proclamation yet about what should be done about it.

Gotcha. Good to know. But some food for thought: when querying about guns and such, one or more responses to your QUESTION!!! might likely pertain to guns.

Be so advised.

The punctuation in the thread title would be strongly interpreted by most that this was not another gun thread. It was to offer an alternative to the gun debate related to Sandy Hook et al. and focus on discussion of another issue that has been presented as a possible factor in such killings. And the OP was intended to be very specific about what the topic of this thread is.

Gotcha. So let's say I query: Coke, better than Pepsi? That in your opinion means we should talk only about Coke?

Hmmmm?