Bashing Ayn Rand

[JWBooth]

Ike stopped a general vote.

Your acumen in American history is astounding ace.

my history is just fine. We were talking about the 58,000 americans who died for nothing and the billions that we wasted. Kennedy and Johnson escalated the war, they could have easily gotten us out of it, but did not.

The american people were opposed to it by a huge margin, but Kennedy and Johnson ignored the will of the people and continued the failed idea of stopping communism.

Well you seemed to skip over that pretty important part of history. Where the US chose to mettle with the internal politics of a fledgling nation. That was made even more despicable because Ho Chi Minh actually worked with the OSS against the Japanese with the promise that his nation would be granted independence from France. And that didn't happen.

You also seem to skip over Nixon's role in the mess. Nixon was very much the sociopath that people like you..and Ayn Rand admired. He illegally and secretly bombed both Cambodia and Laos..and expanded the war a lot further..after promising to end it.

58,000 American troops did die. But that's only part of the story. Over 3 million Vietnamese were killed as a result of America's action in the region.

The whole thing was pretty fucked up and is a bloody mark on this country's history.

Had the promises made, or hints at promises, to Ho during WW2 been kept, all indications were that he would have remained outside of the Soviet sphere of influence.

 

[Bfgrn]

Ike stopped a general vote.

Your acumen in American history is astounding ace.

my history is just fine. We were talking about the 58,000 americans who died for nothing and the billions that we wasted. Kennedy and Johnson escalated the war, they could have easily gotten us out of it, but did not.

The american people were opposed to it by a huge margin, but Kennedy and Johnson ignored the will of the people and continued the failed idea of stopping communism.

Well you seemed to skip over that pretty important part of history. Where the US chose to mettle with the internal politics of a fledgling nation. That was made even more despicable because Ho Chi Minh actually worked with the OSS against the Japanese with the promise that his nation would be granted independence from France. And that didn't happen.

You also seem to skip over Nixon's role in the mess. Nixon was very much the sociopath that people like you..and Ayn Rand admired. He illegally and secretly bombed both Cambodia and Laos..and expanded the war a lot further..after promising to end it.

58,000 American troops did die. But that's only part of the story. Over 3 million Vietnamese were killed as a result of America's action in the region.

The whole thing was pretty fucked up and is a bloody mark on this country's history.

And what is truly sad and sickening, innocent people are STILL dying in Laos and other countries due to American bombings. Most often it is children.

40 years later, America is still killing innocent people in Laos

If you haven't had a chance to see this documentary, it is a must. PBS runs it on occasion. The saddest part of the saga is children are the most vulnerable, because they are attracted to the 'bombies'.

Cluster bombs are small explosive bomblets carried in a large cannister that opens in mid-air, scattering them over a wide area. The bomblets may be delivered by aircraft, rocket, or by artillery projectiles.

The CBU (cluster bomb unit) 26, which was widely used in Laos, is an anti-personnel fragmentation bomb that consists of a large bombshell holding 670 tennis ball-sized bomblets, each of which contain 300 metal fragments. If all the bomblets detonate, some 200,000 steel fragments will be propelled over an area the size of several football fields, creating a deadly killing zone.

The Consequences
Wherever they been used - Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Sudan, Lebanon, Iraq, Kuwait, Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Ethiopia, Chechnya, and Afghanistan, unexploded cluster bombs have created problems for civilians:

* During the Gulf War over 30 million cluster bomblets were dropped on Kuwait and Iraq and, in the following months, unexploded bombs killed 1,600 civilians and injured another 2,500.

* According to a recent study by the Red Cross, children in Kosovo are five times more likely to be killed or injured by a NATO-dropped unexploded cluster bomb than by a Serbian landmine.

* Today, in Afghanistan, reports indicate that the U.S. use of cluster bombs is causing the same kinds of tragic consequences for civilians there as they did in other countries. Because cluster bombs are area weapons with a wide dispersal pattern, they kill living things indiscriminately, including civilians. And their high-failure rate means that the killing of innocent people will continue long after the bombs stop dropping.

Cluster Bombs Today
Their current use in Afghanistan is helping to focus the world's attention on cluster bombs. Many feel that their impact on civilians is unacceptable and a breach of international humanitarian law. More than 50 international organizations, including the International Committee of the Red Cross, the Mennonite Central Committee, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the International Committee to Ban Landmines have called for a moratorium on cluster bomb use. And, in spite of the fact that cluster bombs are one of the favorite and most deadly weapons in the U.S. and NATO arsenals, on December 13, 2001 the European Parliament passed a resolution calling for an immediate global moratorium on their use to be followed by an outright ban.

ITVS: Bombies

It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.
Albert Camus

 

[TemplarKormac]

We the People have a constitutional republic, in which you live. Your ways are your own, but you will follow the law. End of story.

What if a law is unjust? Are we supposed to blindly follow it? Get with the program, Jake.

You get with it, TemplarKormac. You play the politics of it by the Constitutional and electoral law. If you don't like it, sue. If you lose, you lose.

You will follow the law.

My oh my, the little totalitarian in training is running his potty mouth again. I don't play the politics of your politics. You have some convoluted notion that the law reigns supreme in all instances. You have no idea how law can be used to repress people, do you?

My gosh, you are totally ignorant and under-informed, Jake.

 

[bripat9643]

Had the promises made, or hints at promises, to Ho during WW2 been kept, all indications were that he would have remained outside of the Soviet sphere of influence.

All indications are that Ho was a die-hard communist, so that claim is crap.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I don't play the politics of your politics. You have some convoluted notion that the law reigns supreme in all instances.

Yeah, you do. The Rule of Law, via the Constitution, triumphs any reactionary, libertarian, or leftist concept of the Rule of Man. Violate the Rule of Law, pay the price.

 

[Redfish]

I don't play the politics of your politics. You have some convoluted notion that the law reigns supreme in all instances.

Yeah, you do. The Rule of Law, via the Constitution, triumphs any reactionary, libertarian, or leftist concept of the Rule of Man. Violate the Rule of Law, pay the price.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. What we have today is politicians that think they are above the law.

Obamacare is a perfect example. We all get it rammed up our butts but congress makes themselves and the administration exempt.

The people are getting pissed, americans will only tolerate this crap for so long, then the people WILL take the country back.

 

[Contumacious]

I don't play the politics of your politics. You have some convoluted notion that the law reigns supreme in all instances.

Yeah, you do. The Rule of Law, via the Constitution, triumphs any reactionary, libertarian, or leftist concept of the Rule of Man. Violate the Rule of Law, pay the price.

Comrade Starkiev, it appears that the Vodka has destroyed your brain cells . The Constitution - US (1787) is a Libertarian Document.

.

 

[Sallow]

my history is just fine. We were talking about the 58,000 americans who died for nothing and the billions that we wasted. Kennedy and Johnson escalated the war, they could have easily gotten us out of it, but did not.

The american people were opposed to it by a huge margin, but Kennedy and Johnson ignored the will of the people and continued the failed idea of stopping communism.

Well you seemed to skip over that pretty important part of history. Where the US chose to mettle with the internal politics of a fledgling nation. That was made even more despicable because Ho Chi Minh actually worked with the OSS against the Japanese with the promise that his nation would be granted independence from France. And that didn't happen.

You also seem to skip over Nixon's role in the mess. Nixon was very much the sociopath that people like you..and Ayn Rand admired. He illegally and secretly bombed both Cambodia and Laos..and expanded the war a lot further..after promising to end it.

58,000 American troops did die. But that's only part of the story. Over 3 million Vietnamese were killed as a result of America's action in the region.

The whole thing was pretty fucked up and is a bloody mark on this country's history.

Had the promises made, or hints at promises, to Ho during WW2 been kept, all indications were that he would have remained outside of the Soviet sphere of influence.

Absolutely.

Ho's heroes were Marx and Jefferson. In fact the constitution Ho put together was almost entirely lifted from our own.

They probably would have had a more democratic state then the one they have now..and without all the bloodshed.

Incidently..Vietnam cozied up to what nation after the war?

It fought off the Chinese and basically kicked out the Soviets.

 

[Sallow]

Had the promises made, or hints at promises, to Ho during WW2 been kept, all indications were that he would have remained outside of the Soviet sphere of influence.

All indications are that Ho was a die-hard communist, so that claim is crap.

Of course it isn't.

That the problem with you folks. You view the rest of the world as one big evil blob.

Nixon sort of got it after a while. Hence his trip to China.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I don't play the politics of your politics. You have some convoluted notion that the law reigns supreme in all instances.

Yeah, you do. The Rule of Law, via the Constitution, triumphs any reactionary, libertarian, or leftist concept of the Rule of Man. Violate the Rule of Law, pay the price.

The Constitution - US (1787) is a Libertarian Document.

The vodka is rotting your brain, little one.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I don't play the politics of your politics. You have some convoluted notion that the law reigns supreme in all instances.

Yeah, you do. The Rule of Law, via the Constitution, triumphs any reactionary, libertarian, or leftist concept of the Rule of Man. Violate the Rule of Law, pay the price.

Obamacare is a perfect example. We all get it rammed up our butts but congress makes themselves and the administration exempt.

The people are getting pissed, americans will only tolerate this crap for so long, then the people WILL take the country back.

(1) The ACA was passed by the House, the Senate, signed by the President, and opined as constitutional by SCOTUS. Opponents who are in a minority speak against the law. Tuff.

(2) Unexpected Health Insurance Rate Shock-California Obamacare Insurance Exchange Announces Premium Rates - Forbes

(3) The small minority libertarian and reactionary wings are not going to rule this country. They will obey the law or else.

 

[bripat9643]

Well you seemed to skip over that pretty important part of history. Where the US chose to mettle with the internal politics of a fledgling nation. That was made even more despicable because Ho Chi Minh actually worked with the OSS against the Japanese with the promise that his nation would be granted independence from France. And that didn't happen.

You also seem to skip over Nixon's role in the mess. Nixon was very much the sociopath that people like you..and Ayn Rand admired. He illegally and secretly bombed both Cambodia and Laos..and expanded the war a lot further..after promising to end it.

58,000 American troops did die. But that's only part of the story. Over 3 million Vietnamese were killed as a result of America's action in the region.

The whole thing was pretty fucked up and is a bloody mark on this country's history.

Had the promises made, or hints at promises, to Ho during WW2 been kept, all indications were that he would have remained outside of the Soviet sphere of influence.

Absolutely.

Ho's heroes were Marx and Jefferson. In fact the constitution Ho put together was almost entirely lifted from our own.

ROFL! Hardly. You obviously haven't ever read it. It enshrines communism.
Here's a chapter from it:

CHAPTER II
ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL SYSTEM

ARTICLE 9. The Democratic Republic of Vietnam is advancing step by step from people's democracy to socialism by developing and transforming the national economy along socialist lines, transforming its backward economy into a socialist economy with modern industry and agriculture and an advanced science and technology.

The fundamental aim of the economic policy of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam is continuously to develop the productive forces with the aim of raising the material and cultural standards of the people.

ARTICLE 10. The state leads all economic activities according to a unified plan.
The state relies on the organs of state, trade-union organizations, cooperatives, and other organizations of the working people to elaborate and carry out its economic plans.

ARTICLE 11. In the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, during the present period of transition to socialism, the main forms of ownership of means of production are state ownership, that is, ownership by the whole people; cooperative ownership, that is, collective ownership by the working masses; ownership by individual working people; and ownership by the national capitalists.

ARTICLE 12. The state sector of the economy, which is a form of ownership by the whole people, plays the leading role in the national economy. The state ensures priority for its development.

All mineral resources and waters and all forests, undeveloped land, and other resources defined by law as belonging to the state are the property of the whole people.

ARTICLE 13. The cooperative sector of the economy is a form of collective ownership by the working masses. The state especially encourages, guides, and helps the development of the cooperative sector of the economy.

ARTICLE 14. The state by law protects the right of peasants to own land and other means of production.

The state actively guides and helps the peasants to improve farming methods and increase production and encourages them to organize producers', supply-and marketing, and credit cooperatives, in accordance with the principle of voluntariness.

ARTICLE 15. The state by law protects the right of handicraftsmen and other individual working people to own means of production.

The state actively guides and helps handicraftsmen and other individual working people to improve their enterprises and encourages them to organize producers' and supply-and-marketing cooperatives, in accordance with the principle of voluntariness.

ARTICLE 16. The state by law protects the right of national capitalists to own means of production and other capital.

The state actively guides the national capitalists in carrying out activities beneficial to national welfare and the people's livelihood, contributing to the development of the national economy in accordance with the economic plan of the state. The state encourages and guides the national capitalists in following the path of socialist transformation through the form of joint state-private enterprises and other forms of transformation.

ARTICLE 17. The state strictly prohibits the use of private property to disrupt the economic life of society or to undermine the economic plan of the state.

ARTICLE 18. The state protects the right of citizens to possess lawfully earned incomes, savings, houses, and other private means of life.

ARTICLE 19. The state by law protects the right of citizens to inherit private property.

ARTICLE 20. Only when such action is necessary in the public interest does the state repurchase, requisition, or nationalize, with appropriate compensation, means of production in city or countryside, within the limits and in the conditions defined by law.

ARTICLE 21. Labor is the basis on which the people develop the national economy and raise their material and cultural standards.

Labor is a duty and a matter of honor for every citizen.

The state encourages the creativeness and the enthusiasm in labor of workers by hand and brain.

 

[bripat9643]

Had the promises made, or hints at promises, to Ho during WW2 been kept, all indications were that he would have remained outside of the Soviet sphere of influence.

All indications are that Ho was a die-hard communist, so that claim is crap.

Of course it isn't.

That the problem with you folks. You view the rest of the world as one big evil blob.

Nixon sort of got it after a while. Hence his trip to China.

It is crap. See the post above. Ho was a die hard communist from his days studying in Paris.

 

[bripat9643]

(1) The ACA was passed by the House, the Senate, signed by the President, and opined as constitutional by SCOTUS. Opponents who are in a minority speak against the law. Tuff.

(2) Unexpected Health Insurance Rate Shock-California Obamacare Insurance Exchange Announces Premium Rates - Forbes

(3) The small minority libertarian and reactionary wings are not going to rule this country. They will obey the law or else.

You're an expert at stating the obvious, Fakey. Next you'll inform us that the sun will come up tomorrow whether we like it or not!

 

[JakeStarkey]

(1) The ACA was passed by the House, the Senate, signed by the President, and opined as constitutional by SCOTUS. Opponents who are in a minority speak against the law. Tuff.

(2) Unexpected Health Insurance Rate Shock-California Obamacare Insurance Exchange Announces Premium Rates - Forbes

(3) The small minority libertarian and reactionary wings are not going to rule this country. They will obey the law or else.

You're an expert at stating the obvious, Fakey. Next you'll inform us that the sun will come up tomorrow whether we like it or not!

Thank you and thank you for admitting your defeat.

 

[Polk]

Had the promises made, or hints at promises, to Ho during WW2 been kept, all indications were that he would have remained outside of the Soviet sphere of influence.

All indications are that Ho was a die-hard communist, so that claim is crap.

I can't believe that in 2013 we still have people arguing about this question. Even if Ho Chi Minh was a "die-hard communist" from his early days (frankly, it's a topic I'm not well-read on, so I wouldn't make a comment one way or the other), that doesn't mean he desired for Vietnam to be in the Soviet sphere of influence. You shouldn't be wedded to the idea that ideology trumps nationalism.

 

[bripat9643]

Had the promises made, or hints at promises, to Ho during WW2 been kept, all indications were that he would have remained outside of the Soviet sphere of influence.

All indications are that Ho was a die-hard communist, so that claim is crap.

I can't believe that in 2013 we still have people arguing about this question. Even if Ho Chi Minh was a "die-hard communist" from his early days (frankly, it's a topic I'm not well-read on, so I wouldn't make a comment one way or the other), that doesn't mean he desired for Vietnam to be in the Soviet sphere of influence. You shouldn't be wedded to the idea that ideology trumps nationalism.

I'm not going to get into a discussion whether we should have pursued a non-interventionist policy with regard to Vietnam. I credible case can be made that we should have stayed out. However, the claim that Ho Che Minh was a "nationalist" and that he wasn't a communist is simply not credible. It's propaganda that the government of North Vietnam was propagating.

 

[Polk]

All indications are that Ho was a die-hard communist, so that claim is crap.

I can't believe that in 2013 we still have people arguing about this question. Even if Ho Chi Minh was a "die-hard communist" from his early days (frankly, it's a topic I'm not well-read on, so I wouldn't make a comment one way or the other), that doesn't mean he desired for Vietnam to be in the Soviet sphere of influence. You shouldn't be wedded to the idea that ideology trumps nationalism.

I'm not going to get into a discussion whether we should have pursued a non-interventionist policy with regard to Vietnam. I credible case can be made that we should have stayed out. However, the claim that Ho Che Minh was a "nationalist" and that he wasn't a communist is simply not credible. It's propaganda that the government of North Vietnam was propagating.

You're acting like it's an either/or. It's not.

 

[bripat9643]

I can't believe that in 2013 we still have people arguing about this question. Even if Ho Chi Minh was a "die-hard communist" from his early days (frankly, it's a topic I'm not well-read on, so I wouldn't make a comment one way or the other), that doesn't mean he desired for Vietnam to be in the Soviet sphere of influence. You shouldn't be wedded to the idea that ideology trumps nationalism.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about whether we should have pursued a non-interventionist policy with regard to Vietnam. I credible case can be made that we should have stayed out. However, the claim that Ho Che Minh was a "nationalist" and that he wasn't a communist is simply not credible. It's propaganda that the government of North Vietnam was propagating.

You're acting like it's an either/or. It's not.

"Either/or" what? You mean he could be a nationalist and a communist? Not according to Marxist doctrine. However, communists use nationalism when it suits their purposes, as Stalin did during WW II. That being said, Ho was no "nationalist." He was a doctrinaire communist.

 

[Polk]

I'm not going to get into a discussion about whether we should have pursued a non-interventionist policy with regard to Vietnam. I credible case can be made that we should have stayed out. However, the claim that Ho Che Minh was a "nationalist" and that he wasn't a communist is simply not credible. It's propaganda that the government of North Vietnam was propagating.

You're acting like it's an either/or. It's not.

"Either/or" what? You mean he could be a nationalist and a communist? Not according to Marxist doctrine. However, communists use nationalism when it suits their purposes, as Stalin did during WW II. That being said, Ho was no "nationalist." He was a doctrinaire communist.

Yes, I mean exactly that. There is nothing inconsistent about nationalism and communism. Forget the doctrinal arguments for a minute, we're talking about what actually happened in the real world. Did the commonalities of communism make the Soviet Union and China best friends? No, they hated each other.