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amazing how this thread about Ayn Rand is now about viet nam and obamacare.
That is tantamount like to saying that Marx wasn't. Rand took the complete opposite position to Marx (Karl, not Goucho). They are both ideals and we choose those that we follow.Rand was never relevant.
Rand was never relevant.
No, you are not saying that, simply saying it was the Left. Bite your toe.
Yeah, both parties were at fault in Vietnam, just as both are for Iraq.
sheech! snake. pour yourself another 4 fingers of whatever you are drinking. YES, both parties have responsibility for Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Grenada, WW1, WW2, and Korea.
The discussion was about who was president during the escalation of viet nam------answer: Kennedy and Johnson. second discussion: which president ended it by declaring defeat, answer: Nixon.
Four presidents were involved in the escalation until 1965. Nixon took more than four years to proclaim defeat, so you fail about the presidents.
Now enough of this.
Many of us are aware that some Americans want less law and thus little or no liability for their behavior.
Such Rule of Law is not communist, socialist, fascist, democratic, or whatever ism some want to name.
It is the ethical and moral behavior of a civilized nation.
Tough, Contumacious.
Rand was never relevant.
Many of us are aware that some Americans want less law and thus little or no liability for their behavior.
Such Rule of Law is not communist, socialist, fascist, democratic, or whatever ism some want to name.
It is the ethical and moral behavior of a civilized nation.
Tough, Contumacious.
right, 58,000 americans dead and billions wasted in Kennedy and Johnson's fiasco in viet nam.
Our military involvement in Vietnam started with Eisenhower. After the French pulled out, Eisenhower rejected the Geneva Accords in 1954. According to historian David Anderson, writing in 2005, the Eisenhower administration trapped itself and its successors into a commitment to the survival of its own counterfeit creation, the new state of South Vietnam.
Thus Eisenhower's rejection of the Geneva Accords and his nation building in South Vietnam constituted the greatest turning point in the US involvement in Vietnam, the point of no return.
Kennedy sent 16,000 advisers to Vietnam, but by 1963 he wanted out of Vietnam. And, as he confided to trusted advisers like McNamara and White House aide O'Donnell, he intended to withdraw completely from Vietnam after he was safely re-elected in 1964. "So we had better make damned sure that I am re-elected," he told O'Donnell.
Fearing a backlash from his generals and the rightunder the feisty leadership of Barry Goldwater, his likely opponent in the upcoming presidential raceKennedy never made his Vietnam plans public.
On October 11, the Kennedy White House issued NSAM 263, which states:
The President approved the military recommendations contained in section I B (1-3) of the report, but directed that no formal announcement be made of the implementation of plans to withdraw 1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963. Section I(B) of the McNamara-Taylor report, also called for a phased withdrawal be completed by the end of 1965.
Vietnam became LBJ's war, and Nixon's.
nice history lesson, but the facts remain, Kennedy and Johnson are primarily responsible for 58,000 american deaths for nothing. what Kennedy MIGHT have done if he had lived is meaningless.
Our military involvement in Vietnam started with Eisenhower. After the French pulled out, Eisenhower rejected the Geneva Accords in 1954. According to historian David Anderson, writing in 2005, ‘the Eisenhower administration trapped itself and its successors into a commitment to the survival of its own counterfeit creation’, the new ‘state’ of South Vietnam.
Thus Eisenhower's rejection of the Geneva Accords and his ‘nation building’ in South Vietnam constituted the greatest turning point in the US involvement in Vietnam, the point of no return.
Kennedy sent 16,000 advisers to Vietnam, but by 1963 he wanted out of Vietnam. And, as he confided to trusted advisers like McNamara and White House aide O'Donnell, he intended to withdraw completely from Vietnam after he was safely re-elected in 1964. "So we had better make damned sure that I am re-elected," he told O'Donnell.
Fearing a backlash from his generals and the right—under the feisty leadership of Barry Goldwater, his likely opponent in the upcoming presidential race—Kennedy never made his Vietnam plans public.
On October 11, the Kennedy White House issued NSAM 263, which states:
The President approved the military recommendations contained in section I B (1-3) of the report, but directed that no formal announcement be made of the implementation of plans to withdraw 1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963. Section I(B) of the McNamara-Taylor report, also called for a phased withdrawal be completed by the end of 1965.
Vietnam became LBJ's war, and Nixon's.
nice history lesson, but the facts remain, Kennedy and Johnson are primarily responsible for 58,000 american deaths for nothing. what Kennedy MIGHT have done if he had lived is meaningless.
FACTS? That would mean the TRUTH, and that would mean knowing history. SO, instead of the truth and facts, you decide to replace it with partisan dogma. Your intellectual laziness is not a argument, it is a flaw.
If Kennedy had lived is not meaningless. Kennedy signed NSAM 263 and was assassinated a month later.
LBJ escalated the war, Eisenhower could have walked away back in 1954 and didn't. and Nixon lied to the American people that he was going to end the war to get elected, then he escalated the war and bombed the shit out of women and children.
Blame, in this order: LBJ, Ike, Nixon, Kennedy
Our military involvement in Vietnam started with Eisenhower. After the French pulled out, Eisenhower rejected the Geneva Accords in 1954. According to historian David Anderson, writing in 2005, the Eisenhower administration trapped itself and its successors into a commitment to the survival of its own counterfeit creation, the new state of South Vietnam.
Thus Eisenhower's rejection of the Geneva Accords and his nation building in South Vietnam constituted the greatest turning point in the US involvement in Vietnam, the point of no return.
Kennedy sent 16,000 advisers to Vietnam, but by 1963 he wanted out of Vietnam. And, as he confided to trusted advisers like McNamara and White House aide O'Donnell, he intended to withdraw completely from Vietnam after he was safely re-elected in 1964. "So we had better make damned sure that I am re-elected," he told O'Donnell.
Fearing a backlash from his generals and the rightunder the feisty leadership of Barry Goldwater, his likely opponent in the upcoming presidential raceKennedy never made his Vietnam plans public.
On October 11, the Kennedy White House issued NSAM 263, which states:
The President approved the military recommendations contained in section I B (1-3) of the report, but directed that no formal announcement be made of the implementation of plans to withdraw 1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963. Section I(B) of the McNamara-Taylor report, also called for a phased withdrawal be completed by the end of 1965.
Vietnam became LBJ's war, and Nixon's.
nice history lesson, but the facts remain, Kennedy and Johnson are primarily responsible for 58,000 american deaths for nothing. what Kennedy MIGHT have done if he had lived is meaningless.
FACTS? That would mean the TRUTH, and that would mean knowing history. SO, instead of the truth and facts, you decide to replace it with partisan dogma. Your intellectual laziness is not a argument, it is a flaw.
If Kennedy had lived is not meaningless. Kennedy signed NSAM 263 and was assassinated a month later.
LBJ escalated the war, Eisenhower could have walked away back in 1954 and didn't. and Nixon lied to the American people that he was going to end the war to get elected, then he escalated the war and bombed the shit out of women and children.
Blame, in this order: LBJ, Ike, Nixon, Kennedy
nice history lesson, but the facts remain, Kennedy and Johnson are primarily responsible for 58,000 american deaths for nothing. what Kennedy MIGHT have done if he had lived is meaningless.
FACTS? That would mean the TRUTH, and that would mean knowing history. SO, instead of the truth and facts, you decide to replace it with partisan dogma. Your intellectual laziness is not a argument, it is a flaw.
If Kennedy had lived is not meaningless. Kennedy signed NSAM 263 and was assassinated a month later.
LBJ escalated the war, Eisenhower could have walked away back in 1954 and didn't. and Nixon lied to the American people that he was going to end the war to get elected, then he escalated the war and bombed the shit out of women and children.
Blame, in this order: LBJ, Ike, Nixon, Kennedy
It was well known that the North Vietnamese were experts at stalling. No reasonable peace negotiations could be hashed out for the want of proper decor in the room where the negotiations were to take place. It is also well known that Cambodia and Laos served as safe harbors (sanctuaries) for Viet Cong during the war, internal politics here in the US got in the way of pursuing the enemy. As a result the VC were able to launch offensives and counteroffensives against US troops and flee back across the border. It was revealed in 1973 that Nixon had bombed the Ho Chi Minh trail, to little avail. When the South Vietnamese tried launching offensives such as Cuu LONG 44-02, LAM SON 719, and TORN THANG 01-71 late in the war, into those territories BY THEMSELVES, they were beaten back (with the exception of Operation Cuu LONG). These failures ultimately gave the VC the upper hand against their southern counterparts who had by then become exhausted and demoralized.
It reality, it doesn't matter who did what. When the Tet Offensive failed, that should have revealed to those back home that we were the superior force! But as I said before, internal politics were ultimately responsible for these deaths, and the ultimate failure and collapse of Saigon on April 30, 1975, not just any one president.
FACTS? That would mean the TRUTH, and that would mean knowing history. SO, instead of the truth and facts, you decide to replace it with partisan dogma. Your intellectual laziness is not a argument, it is a flaw.
If Kennedy had lived is not meaningless. Kennedy signed NSAM 263 and was assassinated a month later.
LBJ escalated the war, Eisenhower could have walked away back in 1954 and didn't. and Nixon lied to the American people that he was going to end the war to get elected, then he escalated the war and bombed the shit out of women and children.
Blame, in this order: LBJ, Ike, Nixon, Kennedy
It was well known that the North Vietnamese were experts at stalling. No reasonable peace negotiations could be hashed out for the want of proper decor in the room where the negotiations were to take place. It is also well known that Cambodia and Laos served as safe harbors (sanctuaries) for Viet Cong during the war, internal politics here in the US got in the way of pursuing the enemy. As a result the VC were able to launch offensives and counteroffensives against US troops and flee back across the border. It was revealed in 1973 that Nixon had bombed the Ho Chi Minh trail, to little avail. When the South Vietnamese tried launching offensives such as Cuu LONG 44-02, LAM SON 719, and TORN THANG 01-71 late in the war, into those territories BY THEMSELVES, they were beaten back (with the exception of Operation Cuu LONG). These failures ultimately gave the VC the upper hand against their southern counterparts who had by then become exhausted and demoralized.
It reality, it doesn't matter who did what. When the Tet Offensive failed, that should have revealed to those back home that we were the superior force! But as I said before, internal politics were ultimately responsible for these deaths, and the ultimate failure and collapse of Saigon on April 30, 1975, not just any one president.
Yes, entering a war with any goal other than destroying the enemy by killing as many of them as possible in as short a time as possible, is a war we should not be in.
Many of us are aware that some Americans want less law and thus little or no liability for their behavior.
Such Rule of Law is not communist, socialist, fascist, democratic, or whatever ism some want to name.
It is the ethical and moral behavior of a civilized nation.
Tough, Contumacious.
Actually . . . .that concept applies to the storm troopers in DC. .
Many of us are aware that some Americans want less law and thus little or no liability for their behavior.
Such Rule of Law is not communist, socialist, fascist, democratic, or whatever ism some want to name.
It is the ethical and moral behavior of a civilized nation.
Tough, Contumacious.
Actually . . . .that concept applies to the storm troopers in DC. .
We the People have a constitutional republic, in which you live. Your ways are your own, but you will follow the law. End of story.
nice history lesson, but the facts remain, Kennedy and Johnson are primarily responsible for 58,000 american deaths for nothing. what Kennedy MIGHT have done if he had lived is meaningless.
FACTS? That would mean the TRUTH, and that would mean knowing history. SO, instead of the truth and facts, you decide to replace it with partisan dogma. Your intellectual laziness is not a argument, it is a flaw.
If Kennedy had lived is not meaningless. Kennedy signed NSAM 263 and was assassinated a month later.
LBJ escalated the war, Eisenhower could have walked away back in 1954 and didn't. and Nixon lied to the American people that he was going to end the war to get elected, then he escalated the war and bombed the shit out of women and children.
Blame, in this order: LBJ, Ike, Nixon, Kennedy
thats your assessment and you have a right to it. I lived through all of that crap and I saw it differently.
my order would be LBJ, Kennedy, Nixon, Ike. IF, the issue is who was responsible for the most american deaths. If the criteria is something else let me know and I may change my order.
sheech! snake. pour yourself another 4 fingers of whatever you are drinking. YES, both parties have responsibility for Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Grenada, WW1, WW2, and Korea.
The discussion was about who was president during the escalation of viet nam------answer: Kennedy and Johnson. second discussion: which president ended it by declaring defeat, answer: Nixon.
Four presidents were involved in the escalation until 1965. Nixon took more than four years to proclaim defeat, so you fail about the presidents.
Now enough of this.
screw you, you can't end a discussion by making a false statement and declaring the debate over-------
Actually . . . .that concept applies to the storm troopers in DC. .
We the People have a constitutional republic, in which you live. Your ways are your own, but you will follow the law. End of story.
What if a law is unjust? Are we supposed to blindly follow it? Get with the program, Jake.
the expansion and the american deaths were under kennedy and johnson. Ike sent advisiors (mistake), Nixon ended it by declaring defeat.
the whole thing is a sad chapter in american history
Ike stopped a general vote.
Your acumen in American history is astounding ace.
By 1954 the war in Vietnam had become increasingly unpopular in France. The defeat of French troops by Communist forces at Dienbienphu left France exhausted, exasperated and keen to withdraw. At the international conference convened to discuss French Indochina at Geneva in May 1954, the French exit was formalised. Vietnam was temporarily divided, with Ho Chi Minh in control of the north and the Emperor Bao Dai in control of the south. The Geneva Accords declared that there were to be nationwide elections leading to reunification of Vietnam in 1956. However, US intervention ensured that this temporary division was to last for more than 20 years.
The United States refused to sign the Geneva Accords and moved to defy them within weeks. Eisenhower's Secretary of State, John Foster Dulles, organised allies such as Britain in the South-east Asia Treaty Organisation (SEATO). The SEATO signatories agreed to protect South Vietnam, in defiance of the Geneva Accords, which had forbidden the Vietnamese from entering into foreign alliances or to allow foreign troops in Vietnam.
The Eisenhower administration encouraged Bao Dai to appoint Ngo Dinh Diem as his prime minister, and then proceeded to engage in nation building. Eisenhower and Dulles created a new state, in defiance (yet again) of the Geneva Accords and of what was known to be the will of the Vietnamese people. Eisenhower recorded in his memoirs that he knew that if there had been genuine democratic elections in Vietnam in 1956, Ho Chi Minh would have won around 80 per cent of the vote. In order to avoid a wholly Communist Vietnam, the US had sponsored an artificial political creation, the state of South Vietnam.
Turning Points in the Vietnam War | History Today
my history is just fine. We were talking about the 58,000 americans who died for nothing and the billions that we wasted. Kennedy and Johnson escalated the war, they could have easily gotten us out of it, but did not.
The american people were opposed to it by a huge margin, but Kennedy and Johnson ignored the will of the people and continued the failed idea of stopping communism.
