Bashing Ayn Rand

[JakeStarkey]

No, we are not seeing it today, Redfish. Rand had nothing to offer then, nothing to offer now. If we did not collapse the economy in 2008, there is no evidence today that it will collapse in the future based on Randian suggestions.

If you want to make specific claims, based by objective evidence, then go for it.

 

[Bfgrn]

back to topic for just a post or two.

there is a difference between bashing Rand because of her personal philosophy and bashing the basic message of Atlas Shrugged. Rand's personal ideas were looney to say the least. But the message of Atlas is valid and we are seeing it today. When government intrudes too far into the personal and business lives of the citizens the economy, and the country, will collapse on itself.

She accurately predicted where the country was going, and its happening now.

Thats the point. Thats what should be learned from reading her books.

Where the 'country was going' for the last 30+ years is the conservative controlled agenda. The liberal era ended with LBJ's Great Society.


“Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not.” Reagan was an ideological inflection point, ending a 50-year liberal ascendancy and beginning a 30-year conservative ascendancy.
Charles Krauthammer

"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan.

"Grover Norquist has no plan to pay this debt down. His plan says you continue to add to the debt..."
Senator Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.)

 

[Redfish]

back to topic for just a post or two.

there is a difference between bashing Rand because of her personal philosophy and bashing the basic message of Atlas Shrugged. Rand's personal ideas were looney to say the least. But the message of Atlas is valid and we are seeing it today. When government intrudes too far into the personal and business lives of the citizens the economy, and the country, will collapse on itself.

She accurately predicted where the country was going, and its happening now.

Thats the point. Thats what should be learned from reading her books.

Where the 'country was going' for the last 30+ years is the conservative controlled agenda. The liberal era ended with LBJ's Great Society.


“Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not.” Reagan was an ideological inflection point, ending a 50-year liberal ascendancy and beginning a 30-year conservative ascendancy.
Charles Krauthammer

"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan.

"Grover Norquist has no plan to pay this debt down. His plan says you continue to add to the debt..."
Senator Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.)

It has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. It has to do with the size and reach of government. Every president since FDR has increased the size and scope of the federal government. Its not partisan. Both parties have been wrong----or, they have believed that they could make their party stronger by making the government bigger.

Get over the partisan BS, thats not the problem.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The two great engines of history, of which Redfish is unaware, is the development of energy and the centralization of human interaction, which includes government.

Redfish opines that the economy will collapse and human freedom and liberty will continue to be circumscribed.

Those are working premises that require objective evidence not just talking points.

 

[Redfish]

No, we are not seeing it today, Redfish. Rand had nothing to offer then, nothing to offer now. If we did not collapse the economy in 2008, there is no evidence today that it will collapse in the future based on Randian suggestions.

If you want to make specific claims, based by objective evidence, then go for it.

We aren't??? IRS spying on political enemies, DOJ spying on reporters, Obamacare, Fast and Furious, Iran Contra, Gun control, a media that is a mouthpiece for the government, massive increases in welfare, illegal aliens allowed to stay, americans allowed to die for political expediency during an election, voter fraud, giving mortgages to people who could never make the payments, punative taxation?

Yes, we are seeing it today.

As to 2008, WE did not collapse the economy, stupid federal fiscal policy did. And, if everyone knows what happened, why hasn't it been corrected in the last 5 years?

 

[Redfish]

The two great engines of history, of which Redfish is unaware, is the development of energy and the centralization of human interaction, which includes government.

Redfish opines that the economy will collapse and human freedom and liberty will continue to be circumscribed.

Those are working premises that require objective evidence not just talking points.

If you don't have the guts to address me directly, do not talk about me in the 3rd person, just continue your trolling in some other thread.

I am much more aware of history than you are, that is quite obvious by your juvenile attempts at debate.

As the government gets larger and more intrusive, human freedom and liberty WILL continue to be reduced. If you cannot see that, then you are either blind or incredibly stupid.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Ayn Rand is loved by people who are greedy and selfish. Conservative Christians come immediately to mind.

You are a liar. Orthodox Christians give more to charity than any other group of persons in America. It's not even close. Indeed, conservatives in general give vastly more to charity than leftists.

So you can't be talking about that, as the "selfishness" of leftists, comparatively speaking, is well documented.

You must be talking about the redistribution of property, governmental theft in the name of charity.

Yes? No?

Leftists: hypocrites, liars, thieves and thugs.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

The two great engines of history, of which Redfish is unaware, is the development of energy and the centralization of human interaction, which includes government.

Redfish opines that the economy will collapse and human freedom and liberty will continue to be circumscribed.

Those are working premises that require objective evidence not just talking points.

If you don't have the guts to address me directly, do not talk about me in the 3rd person, just continue your trolling in some other thread.

I am much more aware of history than you are, that is quite obvious by your juvenile attempts at debate.

As the government gets larger and more intrusive, human freedom and liberty WILL continue to be reduced. If you cannot see that, then you are either blind or incredibly stupid.

Redfish, JakeStarkey is an utter waste of breath. He's a slogan spouter.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The two great engines of history, of which Redfish is unaware, is the development of energy and the centralization of human interaction, which includes government.

Redfish opines that the economy will collapse and human freedom and liberty will continue to be circumscribed.

Those are working premises that require objective evidence not just talking points.

If you don't have the guts to address me directly, do not talk about me in the 3rd person, just continue your trolling in some other thread.

I am much more aware of history than you are, that is quite obvious by your juvenile attempts at debate.

As the government gets larger and more intrusive, human freedom and liberty WILL continue to be reduced. If you cannot see that, then you are either blind or incredibly stupid.

Redfish, JakeStarkey is an utter waste of breath. He's a slogan spouter.

Neither of you, guys, are all that knowledgeable in American history and the virtues of liberty and freedom. You sputter and splutter, but that is about all.

 

[JakeStarkey]

"Orthodox Christians give more to charity than any other group of persons in America." That is true. What is false is suggesting that OC are the equivalent to far right social traditionalist Christians and that all are Randian. Absolute sophomoric reasoning to reach that conclusion and argue from it.

 

[Bfgrn]

back to topic for just a post or two.

there is a difference between bashing Rand because of her personal philosophy and bashing the basic message of Atlas Shrugged. Rand's personal ideas were looney to say the least. But the message of Atlas is valid and we are seeing it today. When government intrudes too far into the personal and business lives of the citizens the economy, and the country, will collapse on itself.

She accurately predicted where the country was going, and its happening now.

Thats the point. Thats what should be learned from reading her books.

Where the 'country was going' for the last 30+ years is the conservative controlled agenda. The liberal era ended with LBJ's Great Society.


“Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not.” Reagan was an ideological inflection point, ending a 50-year liberal ascendancy and beginning a 30-year conservative ascendancy.
Charles Krauthammer

"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan.

"Grover Norquist has no plan to pay this debt down. His plan says you continue to add to the debt..."
Senator Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.)

It has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. It has to do with the size and reach of government. Every president since FDR has increased the size and scope of the federal government. Its not partisan. Both parties have been wrong----or, they have believed that they could make their party stronger by making the government bigger.

Get over the partisan BS, thats not the problem.

It is EXACTLY the problem. Because what conservatives have been doing for the last 30+ years is what's called 'starve the beast'. WHY? Because they want to end Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. David Stockman and Saxby Chambliss are trying to tell you something

"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan.

"Grover Norquist has no plan to pay this debt down. His plan says you continue to add to the debt..."
Senator Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.)

 

[Redfish]

Where the 'country was going' for the last 30+ years is the conservative controlled agenda. The liberal era ended with LBJ's Great Society.


“Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not.” Reagan was an ideological inflection point, ending a 50-year liberal ascendancy and beginning a 30-year conservative ascendancy.
Charles Krauthammer

"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan.

"Grover Norquist has no plan to pay this debt down. His plan says you continue to add to the debt..."
Senator Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.)

It has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. It has to do with the size and reach of government. Every president since FDR has increased the size and scope of the federal government. Its not partisan. Both parties have been wrong----or, they have believed that they could make their party stronger by making the government bigger.

Get over the partisan BS, thats not the problem.

It is EXACTLY the problem. Because what conservatives have been doing for the last 30+ years is what's called 'starve the beast'. WHY? Because they want to end Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. David Stockman and Saxby Chambliss are trying to tell you something

"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan.

"Grover Norquist has no plan to pay this debt down. His plan says you continue to add to the debt..."
Senator Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.)

Bullshit--conservatives do NOT want to end social security, medicare, and medicaid. That is a bold faced lie.

What conservatives want is for those programs to be operated efficiently and honestly so that they can survive. We all pay into those programs, so it is in all of our interests that they not go broke.

as to the national debt, the facts refute your allegations, the national debt when obama took office was 9T, today it is 16T. He almost doubled it in 5 years. FACT.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Redfish is demonstrating accounting creativity with so many of his comments, particularly the size of the deficit. Stockman and Chambliss are correct, period.

The social entitlement programs are easily workable so that they can continue well beyond our lifetimes.

The issue is to get a handle on all of government expenditures, particularly DOD, and slow it way down.

 

[Bfgrn]

It has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. It has to do with the size and reach of government. Every president since FDR has increased the size and scope of the federal government. Its not partisan. Both parties have been wrong----or, they have believed that they could make their party stronger by making the government bigger.

Get over the partisan BS, thats not the problem.

It is EXACTLY the problem. Because what conservatives have been doing for the last 30+ years is what's called 'starve the beast'. WHY? Because they want to end Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. David Stockman and Saxby Chambliss are trying to tell you something

"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan.

"Grover Norquist has no plan to pay this debt down. His plan says you continue to add to the debt..."
Senator Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.)

Bullshit--conservatives do NOT want to end social security, medicare, and medicaid. That is a bold faced lie.

What conservatives want is for those programs to be operated efficiently and honestly so that they can survive. We all pay into those programs, so it is in all of our interests that they not go broke.

as to the national debt, the facts refute your allegations, the national debt when obama took office was 9T, today it is 16T. He almost doubled it in 5 years. FACT.

Maybe you don't want to end Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, but you're in the minority.

Here is another Republican...the father of Reaganomics...

Looting Social Security

by PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

We constantly hear from Wall Street gangsters and from Republicans and an occasional Democrat that Social Security and Medicare are a form of welfare that we can’t afford, an “unfunded liability.” This is a lie. Social Security is funded with an earmarked tax. People pay for Social Security and Medicare all their working lives. It is a pay-as-you-go system in which the taxes paid by those working fund those who are retired.

Currently these systems are not in deficit. The problem is that government is using earmarked revenues for other purposes. Indeed, since the 1980s Social Security revenues have been used to fund general government. Today Social Security revenues are being used to fund trillion dollar bailouts for Wall Street and to fund the Bush/Obama wars of aggression against Muslims.

Having diverted Social Security revenues to war and Wall Street, Paulson says there is no alternative but to take the promised benefits away from those who have paid for them.

Republicans have extraordinary animosity toward the poor. In an effort to talk retirees out of their support systems, Republicans frequently describe Social Security as a Ponzi scheme and “unsustainable.” They ought to know. The phony trust fund, which they set up to hide the fact that Wall Street and the Pentagon are running off with Social Security revenues, is a Ponzi scheme. Social Security itself has been with us since the 1930s and has yet to wreck our lives and budget. But it only took Hank Paulson’s derivative Ponzi scheme and its bailout a few years to inflict irreparable damage on our lives and budget.

more

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHAT programs and spending did Obama create that caused the debt to increase? What amount of that debt was caused by being handed a country and economy in total shambles. You folks are like the brother in law who borrows my new car, runs it dry of oil, drives it into a ditch, smashes it into tree and hands over the keys and says: You really need to take better care of YOUR car"

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

It has nothing to do with liberal or conservative. It has to do with the size and reach of government. Every president since FDR has increased the size and scope of the federal government. Its not partisan. Both parties have been wrong----or, they have believed that they could make their party stronger by making the government bigger.

Get over the partisan BS, thats not the problem.

It is EXACTLY the problem. Because what conservatives have been doing for the last 30+ years is what's called 'starve the beast'. WHY? Because they want to end Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. David Stockman and Saxby Chambliss are trying to tell you something

"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan.

"Grover Norquist has no plan to pay this debt down. His plan says you continue to add to the debt..."
Senator Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.)

Bullshit--conservatives do NOT want to end social security, medicare, and medicaid. That is a bold faced lie.

What conservatives want is for those programs to be operated efficiently and honestly so that they can survive. We all pay into those programs, so it is in all of our interests that they not go broke.

as to the national debt, the facts refute your allegations, the national debt when obama took office was 9T, today it is 16T. He almost doubled it in 5 years. FACT.

Speak for yourself. This conservative wants to see them ended and rightly so.

 

[JakeStarkey]

And that is why, M. D., you are irrelevant to the American discussion.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

"Orthodox Christians give more to charity than any other group of persons in America." That is true. What is false is suggesting that OC are the equivalent to far right social traditionalist Christians and that all are Randian. Absolute sophomoric reasoning to reach that conclusion and argue from it.

I'm talking about Christian orthodoxy in terms of biblical orthodoxy. I am indeed talking about the very Christians you hate and mean to speak of pejoratively with your blather about “far right social traditionalist”. They give more to charity than any other group of persons in America. It's not even close. Further, they are not "Randian," that is to say, they are not Objectivists in any way, shape or form. You are absurd. They are Christians, not atheists or proponents of Egoism. Duh. And once again, American conservatives in general give vastly more to charity than leftists. The distinction between Christians and Objectivists is categorically true, indisputable. The statistical demographics in the above are well established science.

The only sophomoric blather around here is yours.

 

[JakeStarkey]

M. D. I am an orthodox Christian, not one of the far right evangelical or fundamentalist heretic sects.

You are not the orthodoxy, not anywhere near it.

Since you are clearly not a critical thinker and not one to use objectivity in examination, I suggest you are wasting your time. You allow us to laugh at your attempts to rationalize the irrational premise.

Correction: orthodox Christians give far more in tithing and charity than the left. If the far right Christians want to jump on board, very good.

 

[editec]

This has been a fairly good thread, folks. But as we can see its devolving into seperate pissing matches

What a shame that so many here, people who clearly can think and write coherently about the topic at hand still fall for these ad hominen attacks, one against the other.

I am afraid that "free speech in a venue like this spells the death of truly intellectual discourse.

Because here I see people who clear are NOT trolls that end throwing mud at each other. There is no need for that. It does not serve anyone's arguments.

Here's a mantra some of us ought to repeat

THIS IS THE USMB-- NOT FACEBOOK

WE, THE POSTERS, ARE NOT THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION.​

 

[dblack]

This has been a fairly good thread, folks. But as we can see its devolving into seperate pissing matches

What a shame that so many here, people who clearly can think and write coherently about the topic at hand still fall for these ad hominen attacks, one against the other.

I am afraid that "free speech in a venue like this spells the death of truly intellectual discourse.

Because here I see people who clear are NOT trolls that end throwing mud at each other. There is no need for that. It does not serve anyone's arguments.

Here's a mantra some of us ought to repeat

THIS IS THE USMB-- NOT FACEBOOK

WE, THE POSTERS, ARE NOT THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION.​

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to editec again." (which, ironically, violates your suggestion, but.... )